Star Wars 411

[Zeta]

The book ruins nothing about the movie. It just leads right into the movie. Though...I guess the ending does take away [i]some[/i] impact of the beginning of the movie, it doesn't for anything else.

I don't know if Anakin would have still fallen in love with Padme had it been Obi-Wan instead of Qui-Gon. But I still believe that things would turn out in favor of Sidious. If what Dooku said is true in ATOC, that Qui-Gon would have followed him, I believe that Anakin would follow Qui-Gon in turn.

We can see throughout the movies and books that Anakin is being influenced by those around him greatly. With Qui-Gon being the father he never had rather than Obi-Wan, I believe he would lay his life down with Qui-Gon rather than the Jedi order. Then with Sidious of course leading Dooku, who would be leading Qui-Gon, who would be leading Anakin, I think everything would turn out the same in the end.

It would be possible for Obi-Wan to follow as well. I believe his resistance to joining Dooku in AOTC was due completely to the fact that Qui-Gon was killed. Had Qui-Gon not been killed, and he would in fact follow Dooku, Obi-Wan would be hearing about the failings of the Republic from him, rather than being fed that the Republic is right from other masters and Palpatine.

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Zeta]I don't know if Anakin would have still fallen in love with Padme had it been Obi-Wan instead of Qui-Gon. But I still believe that things would turn out in favor of Sidious. If what Dooku said is true in ATOC, that Qui-Gon would have followed him, I believe that Anakin would follow Qui-Gon in turn.

We can see throughout the movies and books that Anakin is being influenced by those around him greatly. With Qui-Gon being the father he never had rather than Obi-Wan, I believe he would lay his life down with Qui-Gon rather than the Jedi order. Then with Sidious of course leading Dooku, who would be leading Qui-Gon, who would be leading Anakin, I think everything would turn out the same in the end.

It would be possible for Obi-Wan to follow as well. I believe his resistance to joining Dooku in AOTC was due completely to the fact that Qui-Gon was killed. Had Qui-Gon not been killed, and he would in fact follow Dooku, Obi-Wan would be hearing about the failings of the Republic from him, rather than being fed that the Republic is right from other masters and Palpatine.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]I have to admit that I don't think Qui-Gon would have joined Dooku, his relationship with Anakin however would have probably been stronger than between Obi-Wan and Anakin. I mean Obi-Wan only trained Anakin because Qui-Gon requested it of him before he died, and because of that fact their bond wouldn't have been as strong. Perhaps Obi-wan resented being asked to train Anakin when he disagreed with Qui-Gon about him being trained as Jedi. Obi-wan agreed with the Council and was then forced to go against what he believed because Qui-Gon requested it.

That said when we get to Episode II, Obi-Wan and Anakin seem to have developed a good relationship, even though Qui-Gon may have been like a father to Anakin, and Anakin says that about Obi-Wan, he seems more like a bigger brother than a parent. Now this is just my interpretation, but Anakin to me just doesn't respect Obi-Wan, he listens to him, albeit grudgingly but he doesn't seem to respect him. When Anakin talks to Palpatine you can see he prtty much reveres him, and that is what was lacking between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Whether he would have had that with Qui-Gon I don't know, but I feel that he probably would have listened to Qui-Gon more.

As for Qui-Gon siding with Dooku, I feel that he said that only because he wanted to rattle Obi-Wan, I mean Qui-Gon was as true a Jedi as anyone else, although so was Dooku before he made the "[I]I'll join the Sith and destroy them from the inside[/I]" blunder. Again since there's little knowledge of what Qui-Gon was like we can't really make any solid "Yes he would" or "No he wouldn't" statements, it's really just what your interpretation of the man was.[/SIZE]

[Zeta]

Of course. But we all ready know that Qui-Gon doesn't follow the Councils orders. Obi-Wan himself says it. And in [i]Labryith of Evil[/i] we are told that [spoiler] Qui-Gon, Dooku, and Sifo-Dyas share similar views of what is going on with the Republic and the Jedi nowadays[/spoiler]So we are able to make an educated guess, rather than just a guess, that he could side with Dooku. My post before was only an "if" theory.

I do believe that whether Qui-Gon died or not, Anakin would still fall to the dark side. But that is just what I believe. I believe that he must turn to the Dark Side before he can fulfill the prophecy.The old ways of the Jedi were going out of whack, and the only way to change that is to completely irradicate it, or get as close as doing it. This way some old teachings survive, but it is ultimately left for Luke to decide how to train youngn's.*shrug*

[Gavin]

[quote name='Zeta']I do believe that whether Qui-Gon died or not, Anakin would still fall to the dark side. But that is just what I believe. I believe that he must turn to the Dark Side before he can fulfill the prophecy.The old ways of the Jedi were going out of whack, and the only way to change that is to completely irradicate it, or get as close as doing it. This way some old teachings survive, but it is ultimately left for Luke to decide how to train youngn's.*shrug*[/quote]

[SIZE=1]I haven't read the spoiler so I can't comment on what's said in the book, but I do agree that with Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan, Anakin would have fallen. He was too old, he was too headstrong, full of emotion and most importantly, he fell pray to the whispers of Palpatine as a Padawan.

As for Luke restoring the Jedi to their true origins, I would fight that theory with every fibre of my being, Luke's band of "[I]Jedi[/I]" from the Expanded Universe are about as far away from the Jedi as you could get. I mean Luke has lost more students in 30 years than the Order lost in the previous 300, he trains people of any age to be Jedi [committing the mistake which destroyed the Order before], and when we first see him in Return of the Jedi [where ?] he looks like a bloody Sith.

He also broke the bloody Cardinal Rule of the Jedi in getting married, and spawned a son, and he's not even the only one in his so called "[I]Order[/I]" that's done that. I mean if any other Jedi from the Old Republic had survived past ROTJ other than Vergere, I think Luke might have been properly tutored a bit. I just will not accept that Luke is any closer to the true path of the Jedi than the Old Order. I mean in the films he only had a days training with Obi-Wan in Episode IV, and probably a few weeks training with Yoda in Episode V, there is no way by ROTJ he could claim to be a full Jedi.

And his absolute worst insult to the Order was allowing non-Jedi on the Council, that is just unacceptable.[/SIZE]

[Zeta]

I never said he would return to the true path. I said he would be free to teach things his way. With the Old ways irradicated, or as close as possible to being so, he has the choice on how to teach his own pupils. lol. I never said he would return to the true path.

EDIT: Noticed that my post wasn't very constructive.... so here are a few things.

Keep in mind this is all personal opinion.

[QUOTE]I mean Luke has lost more students in 30 years than the Order lost in the previous 300; he trains people of any age to be Jedi [committing the mistake which destroyed the Order before][/QUOTE]

Of course, look at the times. The Jedi have been practically destroyed. They are in a galaxy that has just went through the Clone Wars, and then through the Rebellion. Both of which left what, a handful of Jedi knights across the whole galaxy?

Luke is a learner himself throughout the Expanded Universe. Luke basically taught himself the ways of the Jedi. I always looked at it, as he was just one step ahead of his students; sort of like what is said in Band of Brothers with how the parachute infantry trainers were one step ahead of the troops, since the parachute infantry was new. The same can be applied to this situation. Luke is learning while he teaches. So naturally he isn't going to be the [i]best[/i] of teachers.

He molded his teachings to coincide with the changing times in the New Republic, rather than following the time previous of the Old Republic. That is one reason why he doesn't just train young children. But again, look at the times. The galaxy is not a peaceful place. The New Republic needs Jedi.

Imagine if Luke took on an apprentice of around five years old when he was lets say early/late thirties. And lets say he does a rush job of teaching him so that his apprentice can take on his own, lets put that at ten years. Just look at all the material in the Expanded Universe that would be with only one Jedi Master and one Padawan. They needed Jedi out there fast, or as fast as they could muster. And there would only be a handful of Jedi around at the time of the NJO.

And again, this is his Order. The old Order has been wiped from existence. This is how he is going to run his Order. This is the way it has to be if the Jedi are to once more be the Protectors of Peace and Justice for the New Republic.

[QUOTE]He also broke the bloody Cardinal Rule of the Jedi in getting married, and spawned a son, and he's not even the only one in his so called "Order" that's done that. I mean if any other Jedi from the Old Republic had survived past ROTJ other than Vergere, I think Luke might have been properly tutored a bit. [/QUOTE]

Again, this is the [i]New[/i] Jedi Order. You can't compare it to that of the Old. These are completely different times. Changes have to be made for success. The teachings of the Old Order are what caused it to fall, in my mind. *shrug*

[QUOTE]And his absolute worst insult to the Order was allowing non-Jedi on the Council, that is just unacceptable[/QUOTE]

I myself felt that to be a great idea. Once again I bring up this is the New Jedi Order, not the Old. Look at the alienation that will be going on in Episode III between the people and the Jedi. Palpatine will be able to use the Jedi's flaws against them and turn the people of the Republic against them. I have read good deal of Clone War books that say the people are beginning to think the Jedi are taking things into their own hands and undermining the will of the Senate.

Why?

It is a pure Jedi council. There are no senators/others on the council to give their input on matters and keep the people informed. The Jedi of Old alienated themselves from the people they were meant to protect. With Luke's Jedi Council, the people can actually have a say in matters. Now they will actually be serving those they are meant to protect.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Zeta']I never said he would return to the true path. I said he would be free to teach things his way. With the Old ways irradiated, or as close as possible to being so, he has the choice on how to teach his own pupils. lol. I never said he would return to the true path.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]My apologies, I thought from your previous comments that you were implying that Luke's Order was somehow more closely attune to the true path of the Jedi than that of the Old Order.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Zeta']Of course, look at the times. The Jedi have been practically destroyed. They are in a galaxy that has just went through the Clone Wars, and then through the Rebellion. Both of which left what, a handful of Jedi knights across the whole galaxy?[/quote]

[SIZE=1]Actually if we're counting the entire Expanded Universe, then you'd have to include the splitting of the Order because of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma. And from the KOTOR series [spoiler]you'd also have to take into account that in KOTOR 2 it's revealed the entire Jedi Order [bar about five individuals, three of whom later die] has been wiped out.

So really if twice it can happen and the Order can still come back and come very close to what[/spoiler] it was before then Luke really has no excuse for coming up with such a poor Order, although granted he wasn't even a Padawan when the last two properly trained Jedi died.

I just felt that Luke's Order was just too far away from the Old Jedi for my liking, perhaps it's because I'm just a die-hard fan of the Old Jedi Order, or perhaps it's because I dislike Luke. But for my Luke's Order just breaks too many of the set rules for my liking.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Zeta]Luke is a learner himself throughout the Expanded Universe. Luke basically taught himself the ways of the Jedi. I always looked at it, as he was just one step ahead of his students; sort of like what is said in Band of Brothers with how the parachute infantry trainers were one step ahead of the troops, since the parachute infantry was new. The same can be applied to this situation. Luke is learning while he teaches. So naturally he isn't going to be the [i]best[/i] of teachers.

He moulded his teachings to coincide with the changing times in the New Republic, rather than following the time previous of the Old Republic. That is one reason why he doesn't just train young children. But again, look at the times. The galaxy is not a peaceful place. The New Republic needs Jedi.

Imagine if Luke took on an apprentice of around five years old when he was lets say early/late thirties. And lets say he does a rush job of teaching him so that his apprentice can take on his own, lets put that at ten years. Just look at all the material in the Expanded Universe that would be with only one Jedi Master and one Padawan. They needed Jedi out there fast, or as fast as they could muster. And there would only be a handful of Jedi around at the time of the NJO.

And again, this is his Order. The old Order has been wiped from existence. This is how he is going to run his Order. This is the way it has to be if the Jedi are to once more be the Protectors of Peace and Justice for the New Republic.

Again, this is the [i]New[/i] Jedi Order. You can't compare it to that of the Old. These are completely different times. Changes have to be made for success. The teachings of the Old Order are what caused it to fall, in my mind. *shrug*
[/quote]

[SIZE=1]Yes I do take into account that Luke was basically one step ahead of his pupils for a while in terms of training, but in later years, such as the NJO for instance, Luke has hard 25 years to train himself. I mean for God's sake the Jedi have been in existence for 10,000 years if we take a generation as being about 10 years, and they must have been doing something right if their traditions stayed the same over those ten millennia, even if the face of repeated destruction.

I know I'm going over old ground, and Luke never had the benefit of proper tutelage under the Jedi, but still over 25 years he had more than enough time to try and make an effort to go back to the old style of the Jedi. I do accept that he would have had to take on multiple apprentices at one time in the beginning, much like the clans seen in Episode II, but after training thirty properly he would have had enough to drop that number down significantly to maybe three per Knight.

I don't accept however that Luke had to change the Order however to suit the times, the Order was something that had stood the test of time and merely saying that because he was the only Jedi he had to train adults. He trained adults and older children because it was easier than simply training infants, and because he could send them out into the galaxy faster. I accept that the Jedi are Guardians of Peace and Justice and so they had to try and be out there living up to that name, but it'd have been much better, less interesting in terms of books but better if he'd have had some fully trained Jedi out there, rather than just Padawans and apprentices.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Zeta]I myself felt that to be a great idea. Once again I bring up this is the New Jedi Order, not the Old. Look at the alienation that will be going on in Episode III between the people and the Jedi. Palpatine will be able to use the Jedi's flaws against them and turn the people of the Republic against them. I have read good deal of Clone War books that say the people are beginning to think the Jedi are taking things into their own hands and undermining the will of the Senate.

Why?

It is a pure Jedi council. There are no senators/others on the council to give their input on matters and keep the people informed. The Jedi of Old alienated themselves from the people they were meant to protect. With Luke's Jedi Council, the people can actually have a say in matters. Now they will actually be serving those they are meant to protect.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]No I disagree with that completely, normal people on the Council fair enough, your average person who goes through life with a normal job and responsibilities. But not bloody Senators, Senators are often more interested in what's of benefit to them rather than what's of benefit to the people. Heck in the New Trilogy it's the corruption of the Old Republic that's crippling it, so to invite that same corruption into the Jedi Council is suicide. Jedi are different to normal people, their command of the Force makes them able to see things a lot more clearly than everyone else.

As for the Jedi being alienated from the people, they're the Guardians of Justice, the Republic has very little in terms of a military, and their police force was laughable. The Jedi had only certain numbers and couldn't be everywhere in force all the time, I mean I don't know how they would have gotten in touch more with the public as they just didn't go on state visits anywhere.

I haven't read any of the Clone Wars books, but I still feel that there was a reason that the Jedi Masters sat on the Council among themselves. The Jedi were a law unto themselves, and they didn?t suffer the same level of corruption that other organisations did. I put this down to the fact the Jedi think of others before themselves, and because the Council knew what was right. These are just my feelings on the subject though.[/SIZE]

[Zeta]

[QUOTE]Actually if we're counting the entire Expanded Universe, then you'd have to include the splitting of the Order because of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma.[spoiler] And from the KOTOR series you'd also have to take into account that in KOTOR 2 it's revealed the entire Jedi Order [bar about five individuals, three of whom later die] has been wiped out.[/spoiler] [/QUOTE]

Exactly. Look at how many times the Old Order has crumbled. Yes they are able to bring themselves back from near defeat, but when they get to the height of their power, they crumble yet again. It has been seen throughout the Star Wars Universe. They are brought to their knees by the Sith/Dark Jedi.

Now look at Luke's Order. How many Dark Jedi have they been through and still survived? The reborn Emperor. The Shadow Academy. C'Boath. Exar Kun's ghost. And others. And yet they are still standing, even with their very limited numbers of Jedi. They have always come out on top, with a majority of it's members still alive and breathing.

It isn't the Sith/Dark Jedi that brings Luke's Order to its knees. It is the Vong. A race outside of the Force. It takes that to cripple his Order. I myself doubt that the Old Order's way of teaching would have been able to face up against the Vong.

[QUOTE]He trained adults and older children because it was easier than simply training infants, and because he could send them out into the galaxy faster.[/QUOTE]

Which is [i]exactly[/i] what the New Republic needed at the time. He therefore molded his teachings to coincide with the times. The Jedi of old could have done this themselves. But they chose not to. Even after all the times their own Order crumbled.

[QUOTE]No I disagree with that completely, normal people on the Council fair enough, your average person who goes through life with a normal job and responsibilities. But not bloody Senators, Senators are often more interested in what's of benefit to them rather than what's of benefit to the people.[/QUOTE]

You are exactly right. I was going to put more emphasis on the "others" part of my original post, but forgot.

The Senators would be left to their own devices with the Senate and all the blather they do. This is how I pictured it. The people would pick who they want on the Council. Lets just say a vote. From somone outside of the political structure.
They would then be placed on the council.

Hell, the Senators themselves can still be placed on the council, even if they are/become corrupt. . If the Jedi and the rest do not agree with what he/she is proposing in the council, they will not do it. Corruption in a small council can be handled it. But with corruption on the scale in the Senate of the PT, it cannot.

[QUOTE]I mean I don't know how they would have gotten in touch more with the public as they just didn't go on state visits anywhere[/QUOTE]

Which only strengtenthed the peoples belief that the Jedi were underming them.

You don't even have to read any of the Clone Wars books to tell public opinion is changing towards Jedi.

The people buy into Palpatines blather about the Jedi being the evil ones. He uses the Jedi ways and makes it seem they are undermining his and their authority. How else could he convince the people the Jedi are bad? He can't just go on the 'Net and say "The Jedi are bad" and have everyone believe him.

But yes, it is just a matter of personal opinion and which you like more, which is mor effective, etc..

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Zeta]Exactly. Look at how many times the Old Order has crumbled. Yes they are able to bring themselves back from near defeat, but when they get to the height of their power, they crumble yet again. It has been seen throughout the Star Wars Universe. They are brought to their knees by the Sith/Dark Jedi.

Now look at Luke's Order. How many Dark Jedi have they been through and still survived? The reborn Emperor. The Shadow Academy. C'Boath. Exar Kun's ghost. And others. And yet they are still standing, even with their very limited numbers of Jedi. They have always come out on top, with a majority of it's members still alive and breathing.

It isn't the Sith/Dark Jedi that brings Luke's Order to its knees. It is the Vong. A race outside of the Force. It takes that to cripple his Order. I myself doubt that the Old Order's way of teaching would have been able to face up against the Vong[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]I'd like to point out that in 10,000 years [possibly more] the Jedi have only ever been at the brink of destruction three times. The Reborn Emperor, Brakiss and his Shadow Academy, Joruus C'baoth, Kun's disembodied spirit, the villains from the Jedi Knight series. No offence Zeta, but they don't hold a candle to the Sith and Dark Jedi faced by the Old Order, I mean guys like the Sith Lords of Korriban [Naga Sadow, Ajunta Pall, Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos], The Danthomir Night Sisters, Revan and Malak, Darths Nihilus, Sion and Traya, Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma, the thousands of Dark Jedi and Sith from the Jedi Civil War [after Revan and Malak], and the Sith Wars [Kun and Qel Droma]. Heck you could even count in Palpatine there because he was killed by Anakin and Anakin is a Jedi of the Old Order. As many Dark Jedi and Sith [many of them Skywalker?s failed students] as the New Jedi Order have faced, none of them even come close to the power of the Old Sith.

As for the Vong, well I think the Old Jedi Order would have been able to give them a run for their money, they had the numbers, they had the training, and they would have had the full power of the Old Republic behind them. And even then it was the Republic actively handing over Jedi to be killed, in order to stave off their own eventual destruction that brought Skywalker?s Order partially to it?s knees. Had the Empire been in full control of the Galaxy, the Vong wouldn?t have had half the victories they did, and this is even without the Sith. The Republic faltered, couldn?t agree on a plan of action and eventually turned to the Jedi, as they inevitably do in order to survive. [/SIZE]

[quote name='Zeta]Which is [i]exactly[/i'] what the New Republic needed at the time. He therefore moulded his teachings to coincide with the times. The Jedi of old could have done this themselves. But they chose not to. Even after all the times their own Order crumbled.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]And how many Jedi did he lose in the process, how many apprentices turned on him and became Dark Jedi, or just plain turned to the Dark Side for a while. Brakiss, Dolph [Krueller], Desaan, Kyp, the list goes on. All because Skywalker didn?t have the patience to wait, and teach them from youth, he wanted his Jedi out there ASAP because he wanted the Jedi to be seen again, and he stirred up enough hornets nests in doing so.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Zeta]You are exactly right. I was going to put more emphasis on the "others" part of my original post, but forgot.

The Senators would be left to their own devices with the Senate and all the blather they do. This is how I pictured it. The people would pick who they want on the Council. Lets just say a vote. From someone outside of the political structure.
They would then be placed on the council.

Hell, the Senators themselves can still be placed on the council, even if they are/become corrupt. . If the Jedi and the rest do not agree with what he/she is proposing in the council, they will not do it. Corruption in a small council can be handled it. But with corruption on the scale in the Senate of the PT, it cannot.

Which only strengthened the peoples belief that the Jedi were undermining them.

You don't even have to read any of the Clone Wars books to tell public opinion is changing towards Jedi.

The people buy into Palpatine's blather about the Jedi being the evil ones. He uses the Jedi ways and makes it seem they are undermining his and their authority. How else could he convince the people the Jedi are bad? He can't just go on the 'Net and say "The Jedi are bad" and have everyone believe him.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]In a perfect galaxy yes, the people would have elected good people to get on the Council, but the same people elect the Senators and we see exactly how corrupt and useless they are. And that?s why I object to non-Jedi on the Council [and fallen Jedi like Kyp], they don?t have the training, they don?t have the clarity of mind and more often than not, they?re Senators. If I remember correctly,a few of the non-Jedi on the Council were people who objected to reforming the Jedi in the first place. [/SIZE]

[Brasil]

Zeta, also you need to keep in mind that Palpatine labeled Jedi as enemies of the Republic because they were enemies of the Republic. They were fighting Palpatine's directives at almost every opportunity, and were one of the only opponents to the reformation. They weren't just enemies because Palpatine said they were; they were enemies because they were.

If left to the Jedi and Senate, the Old Republic would have crumbled; that is clear to anyone who's studied the Saga on any level. Palpatine steps in and saves the Old Republic, and because his methods are a bit too brutal for the Jedi tastes (but, really, desperate times call for desperate measures), the Jedi revolt, essentially.

But when you consider what they're rebelling against...they're rebelling against what needed to be done. The Old Republic was in shambles; the Senate was sluggish; it was a veritable and undeniable shithole, lol.

I don't think the Jedi reasons are all that legitimate, honestly...Palpatine was doing what needed to be done, because nobody else had the balls to do it.

[quote name='Zeta']Hell, the Senators themselves can still be placed on the council, even if they are/become corrupt.[/quote]
That is particularly asinine, because corrupt Senators are what butchered much of the Old Republic in the first place.

[Zeta]

[QUOTE]
I'd like to point out that in 10,000 years [possibly more] the Jedi have only ever been at the brink of destruction three times. The Reborn Emperor, Brakiss and his Shadow Academy, Joruus C'baoth, Kun's disembodied spirit, the villains from the Jedi Knight series. No offence Zeta, but they don't hold a candle to the Sith and Dark Jedi faced by the Old Order, I mean guys like the Sith Lords of Korriban [Naga Sadow, Ajunta Pall, Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos], The Danthomir Night Sisters, Revan and Malak, Darths Nihilus, Sion and Traya, Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma, the thousands of Dark Jedi and Sith from the Jedi Civil War [after Revan and Malak], and the Sith Wars [Kun and Qel Droma]. Heck you could even count in Palpatine there because he was killed by Anakin and Anakin is a Jedi of the Old Order. As many Dark Jedi and Sith [many of them Skywalker?s failed students] as the New Jedi Order have faced, none of them even come close to the power of the Old Sith.[/QUOTE]

Oh I know. I was just throwing out examples of things that these "lesser" Jedi have faced and have come out on top, without being reduced to less than a handful of Jedi. Boath and the lot are strong nonetheless, though not as strong as past Sith. The Jedi of the New Order are strong in their own ways, fought, and were able to come out on top without severly-depleted numbers.

[QUOTE] That is particularly asinine, because corrupt Senators are what butchered much of the Old Republic in the first place.[/QUOTE]

The rest of that section explains the reasoning behind that sentence. In a small council you can be as corrupt as you like. If the Jedi and others don?t agree with what he/she is saying, they obviously won't do anything about it. It would be able to be controlled on a small council.

What directives were the Jedi undermining of Palpatines? I know there are instances where the Jedi would go on missions without informing him. They also had good reason to. They were beginning to suspect that Palpatine had some less than honest motives going. They were beginning to question some of his motives yes, but from what I have been reading they are still doing what he asks of them. What things do they undermine/disobey?

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']The rest of that section explains the reasoning behind that sentence. In a small council you can be as corrupt as you like. If the Jedi and others don?t agree with what he/she is saying, they obviously won't do anything about it. It would be able to be controlled on a small council.[/quote]
Okay, so the justification for allowing corrupt Senators on the...Jedi Council...is because the Jedi could...defend themselves? You're supposing that the Jedi would have enough common sense to be able to effectively distinguish appropriate courses of action in the light of "questionable" Senatorial suggestion?

You do realize that the Jedi are largely responsible for the fall of the Old Republic? They sat by and did nothing, despite Obi-Wan and Mace Windu's adamant calls to action. I think you hold the Jedi in much too much regard, Zeta, because they barely can do anything on their own (particularly decision-making), let alone acting as a fail-safe for corrupt Senators.

A smaller pond, as it were, means nothing when the character of the Jedi remains the same, the character being about as sluggish and slow as the Republic Senate itself, lol.

Having corrupt Senators on a Council of no more than 15 is not going to help anything, nor is it going to provide some type of buffer. If anything, it's just going to increase the danger of Council corruption.

Your "solution" is not a solution.

[quote]What directives were the Jedi undermining of Palpatines? I know there are instances where the Jedi would go on missions without informing him. They also had good reason to. They were beginning to suspect that Palpatine had some less than honest motives going. They were beginning to question some of his motives yes, but from what I have been reading they are still doing what he asks of them. What things do they undermine/disobey?[/QUOTE]
Consider the fact that Palpatine is revitalizing the Old Republic, bringing it back from the brink of a self-destruction, re-building its military might, transforming a weak and ailing governing body into a force to be reckoned with, and only able to do this by playing both sides. Palpatine's a smart guy. He knew that the only way to get anything done was to utilize some tactics that others wouldn't.

The Jedi wouldn't because many of them were simply too blinded by their own arrogance and inflated sense of self-worth to understand the importance of change. Most of the Council ignores and shrugs off Obi-Wan's report of the cloning, as well, remember. The Council is really a smaller version of the Senate: conceited and pretentious, and they don't realize that until Palpatine shows them.

When Mace Windu and Obi-Wan start getting hints that there's something deeper in Palpatine's plan, what do they do? Instead of working with the system that Palpatine is developing, they fight it...they want to destroy it. Considering that under Palpatine, the Republic is finally experiencing order and structure (and things are finally getting done), Windu and Obi-Wan are threatening the very foundation of a stable social and political order.

As much as some may not like Palpatine, the Republic would be lost without him. He is its [i]savior[/i]...and the Jedi apparently didn't like that he could singlehandedly do what they and the Senate could never do: lead effectively.

Yes, Palpatine does work behind the scenes to poke at the Republic (his influence in the Trade Federation, for example), but sometimes to get things done, you have to engage in activites that others may label "immoral." In this case, though, I think the ends justify the means. To make the omelet, Palpatine had to break a few eggs.

[Zeta]

Again, this was all personal opinion.

I do believe that the Jedi would have enough sense to realise if someone/a few in a small council has less than honest motives.

I also believe that the Jedi played a part with the fall of the Republic. I believe that their teachings hindered their ability to effectivly keep an eye out for things, things that could have been prevented or not. It is obvious there is a failing of their teachings if a Dark Lord of the Sith can be running the Republic. Even with them across the table from each other.

[QUOTE]Instead of working with the system that Palpatine is developing, they fight it...they want to destroy it.[/QUOTE]

What are they destroying? Where? They are doing exactly as Palpatine is ordering them. In the [i]Cestus Deception[/i] Obi-Wan realizes that his mission he was sent on had a motive he didn't agree with. Yet he still continued with his mission. Where exactly are they fighting it? The books I have read they are doing what is asked of them, even if they do not personally agree with it. Jedi are not warriors. They said this to Palpatine himself. Yet they lead his armies. You still haven't answered my question of where they are trying to disobey his orders and undermine his policies?

I myself thought that the Council accepted Obi-Wan's transmission of the Clone Army. Where do they deny it and shrug it off? Yoda admits it himself that they failed to see the creation. Why would they see Obi-Wan as lieing?

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Again, this was all personal opinion.[/quote]
Yeah, but you're saying that the Jedi could effectively "feel out" deception and corruption in their ranks, and that's been proven false by the films themselves. Opinion, yeah, but it's an opinion that largely ignores the characterization of the Jedi Council.

[quote][b]I do believe that the Jedi would have enough sense to realise if someone/a few in a small council has less than honest motives. [/b]

I also believe that the Jedi played a part with the fall of the Republic. I believe that their teachings hindered their ability to effectivly keep an eye out for things, things that could have been prevented or not. It is obvious there is a failing of their teachings if a Dark Lord of the Sith can be running the Republic. Even with them across the table from each other.[/quote]
Zeta, I've bolded the statement here. And that's the thing, because the Jedi [i]don't[/i] have that kind of sense, and never display it throughout the films (incidentally, I don't really regard much of the EU as entirely relevant to begin with, and I've explained why in the past--actually, in this thread, lol).

[quote]What are they destroying? Where? They are doing exactly as Palpatine is ordering them. In the Cestus Deception Obi-Wan realizes that his mission he was sent on had a motive he didn't agree with. Yet he still continued with his mission. Where exactly are they fighting it? The books I have read they are doing what is asked of them, even if they do not personally agree with it. Jedi are not warriors. They said this to Palpatine himself. Yet they lead his armies. You still haven't answered my question of where they are trying to disobey his orders and undermine his policies?[/quote]
Zeta, honestly, the EU is just fanfiction that the authors happen to get paid for, and as such, I don't treat EU as having real relevance to Star Wars. They're neat sidestories, yeah, but ultimately, they're nothing more than that: neat sidestories. Their actual relevance to the films diminishes when you start looking at the films critically (objectively).

Now, you ask where we see the Jedi "picking a fight" with Palpatine, getting in the way of his goals, undermining his policies? How about throughout the films? Trade Federation, Darth Maul, Anakin's training (particularly Anakin's training), etc.

[quote]I myself thought that the Council accepted Obi-Wan's transmission of the Clone Army. Where do they deny it and shrug it off? Yoda admits it himself that they failed to see the creation. Why would they see Obi-Wan as lieing?[/QUOTE]
[quote=Episode II]JOCASTA NU: It ought to be, unless it was very recent.
(shakes her head) I hate to say it, but it looks like the
system you're searching for doesn't exist.

OBI-WAN: That's impossible... perhaps the archives are
incomplete.

JOCASTA NU: The archives are comprehensive and totally
secure, my young Jedi. One thing you may be absolutely sure
of - if an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist![/quote]That's what I was referring to. It's not a matter of thinking Obi-Wan was lying; it's more a matter of Jedi being arrogant to the point of blindness.

And it's interesting that you mentioned Yoda's line there, because it definitely portrays the Council as incompetent:

[quote=Episode II]YODA: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could
not see.

MACE WINDU: I think it is time to inform the Senate that
our ability to use the Force has diminished.

YODA: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.[/quote]What's even more interesting, however, is the fact that Count Dooku is telling Obi-Wan the truth about the Senate and Darth Sidious in Episode II, and yet we see the following from Yoda and Mace Windu:

[quote=Episode II]OBI-WAN: Do you believe what Count Dooku said about Sidious
controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right.

YODA: Becoming unreliable, Dooku has. Joined the dark side.
Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now.

MACE WINDU: Never the less, I feel we should keep a closer
eye on the Senate.

YODA: I agree.[/quote]Again, they don't act on it, simply because Dooku has joined the Dark Side. They more or less ignore that particular problem (someone is controlling the Senate) and then it's going to swim up and bite them in the ***, to borrow a quote from Jaws.

[Zeta]

[QUOTE] Zeta, I've bolded the statement here. And that's the thing, because the Jedi don't have that kind of sense, and never display it throughout the films (incidentally, I don't really regard much of the EU as entirely relevant to begin with, and I've explained why in the past--actually, in this thread, lol).[/QUOTE]

Well this is where we differ. I do consider the EU relevant. *shrug* I hope that since the training that can now take place afresh, the Jedi will be able to sense the deception. It has been seen, in the EU at least, that the Jedi can tell if a person is deceiving them. The fact that it is only a small body rather than a large one such as the Senate will make it easier for the Jedi to detect any sort of deception on the new Council.

[QUOTE]Now, you ask where we see the Jedi "picking a fight" with Palpatine, getting in the way of his goals, undermining his policies? How about throughout the films? Trade Federation, Darth Maul, Anakin's training (particularly Anakin's training), etc.[/QUOTE]

Trade Federation? Are you talking about when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go on their diplomatic mission? That was for Valorum, not Palpatine. They interrupted, if only a little, a plan set in motion by a Dark Lord of the Sith. Getting in the way of the Sith's goals of ruling the galaxy with an iron fist definitely. If that isn't what you meant, then do explain.

Darth Maul? A Sith apprentice. Naturally they would fight with him to get him out of the picture. It has been seen throughout the Star Wars universe that the Sith do evil things. Naturally they would once again try to thrawt a Sith's plan. Hell, Palpatine still got away with it. Mace and Yoda were skeptical at first about the return of the Sith. A failure with the Old Jedi Order's way of teaching perhaps? To actually believe that the Sith were completely gone? Again, if I am misinterpreting what you are saying, please explain.

At first Mace and Yoda were against the training of Anakin. Then they are for it. Mace practically does a complete 180 by the time of AOTC. Referring to him in high regards concerning the prophecy, etc..and doesn't show any resentment against training him. Palpatine has no control of Anakin's training. It is the Obi-Wan and the Council's choice alone as to how they train him. Sure he can recommend him for missions concerning various things, but he has little control of his training. The only mission (outside of the EU that is) so far that Palpatine even recommends him for is guarding Padme with Obi-Wan. It was the Council's decision to send him to Naboo with her, even though Obi-Wan didn't agree. He has no control over Anakin's training. Though he does have control in putting him in situations where Anakin can and will be tempted by the Dark Side.

And as far as I have been able to grasp from the books and movies, Anakin wasn't originally part of his plans anyways. Had his original plot gone through in TPM (with the Queen not escaping, etc...) Anakin would still be on Tatooine.

Most of their interfering with his goals are them interfering with the plans of a Sith. They are not interfering with Palpatine's directives, orders, etc...as the Supreme Chancellor. But what they are interfering with are his plans as a Dark Lord of the Sith. We have seen in the movies, the books, comics, games, throughout the whole universe that the Sith don't use their power for good. So naturally they are going to be interfering with the Sith Lord's plans, they just do not know he is Palpatine in disguise. Unless of course you do not believe that the Sith are bad and Jedi good. *shrug*

Palpatine's plans are not for the good of the people. They are for him to seize absolute power over the entire galaxy. They look all nice and sweet on top. But each law passed in the senate, directive passed, what have you, it only increases Palpatine's power to rule the galaxy as he sees fit.

If I misinterpreted any of your ways of them undermining Palpatine's, the Supreme Chancellor, orders, please explain. I see them interfering with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, not Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. And as things start to become clearer to them, they begin to question his true motives. *shrug*

EDIT: My apologies, I completely forgot the last section of your post. >_>

[QUOTE]That's what I was referring to. It's not a matter of thinking Obi-Wan was lying; it's more a matter of Jedi being arrogant to the point of blindness.[/QUOTE]

That doesn't say anything about the Clones. One Jedi refusing to believe that the system exists doesn't speak for the whole. The Clones were not even in any of the Jedi's minds at that moment, they had no inkling. It shows that this one Jedi doesn't believe that the system is in existant because she believes the Archives to be complete. It doesn't show that the Jedi failed to believe Obi-Wan about a Clone army being built.

When he informs Yoda, Mace, etc.. about the existance of the Clone Army, they do not deny it. They accept it. And admit their failing in seeing the creation of it.

[QUOTE]Again, they don't act on it, simply because Dooku has joined the Dark Side. They more or less ignore that particular problem (someone is controlling the Senate) and then it's going to swim up and bite them in the ***, to borrow a quote from Jaws.[/QUOTE]

They obviously don't disregard what he says. The fact that the are keeping an eye on the Senate shows action on their part. Not a lot of action, but action nonetheless. They didn't act on it fully because they had no clue [i]how[/i] Sidious could have control of the Senate. He could be the Supreme Chancellor. He could be a background guy who just has people in the Senate under his control.

It all goes back to the fact that they were not able to see any of the events unfolding. They weren't able to see the Clones being created. They weren't able to tell that Palpatine was a Sith, even with him right across from them. Imagine the conflicts that would arise had they informed anyone that their powers have diminished? Chaos I am sure. The powerful Jedi. Not even able to see a Dark Lord of the Sith right across the table from them.

A failing in their teachings in my book. *shrug*

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Well this is where we differ. I do consider the EU relevant. *shrug* I hope that since the training that can now take place afresh, the Jedi will be able to sense the deception. It has been seen, in the EU at least, that the Jedi can tell if a person is deceiving them. The fact that it is only a small body rather than a large one such as the Senate will make it easier for the Jedi to detect any sort of deception on the new Council.[/quote]
Well, just consider how much of the EU is written after the OT is released, and how much of the current Prequel-focused EU is being written even before Episode III is released. The Star Wars EU is just fanfiction, and yes, they're endorsed by Lucas--though, if that process is anything like Hollywood script submissions...Lucas isn't reading any of the books, just getting synopses/reviews from assistants)--but that doesn't necessarily mean they're reliable.

Okay, the EU says that Jedi can sense deception. The films do not (in fact there's very little to suggest the Jedi can sense much of anything). Right there is a pretty good indication that EU isn't reliable.

[quote]Trade Federation? Are you talking about when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go on their diplomatic mission? That was for Valorum, not Palpatine. They interrupted, if only a little, a plan set in motion by a Dark Lord of the Sith. Getting in the way of the Sith's goals of ruling the galaxy with an iron fist definitely. If that isn't what you meant, then do explain.

Darth Maul? A Sith apprentice. Naturally they would fight with him to get him out of the picture. It has been seen throughout the Star Wars universe that the Sith do evil things. Naturally they would once again try to thrawt a Sith's plan. Hell, Palpatine still got away with it. Mace and Yoda were skeptical at first about the return of the Sith. A failure with the Old Jedi Order's way of teaching perhaps? To actually believe that the Sith were completely gone? Again, if I am misinterpreting what you are saying, please explain.

At first Mace and Yoda were against the training of Anakin. Then they are for it. Mace practically does a complete 180 by the time of AOTC. Referring to him in high regards concerning the prophecy, etc..and doesn't show any resentment against training him. Palpatine has no control of Anakin's training. It is the Obi-Wan and the Council's choice alone as to how they train him. Sure he can recommend him for missions concerning various things, but he has little control of his training. The only mission (outside of the EU that is) so far that Palpatine even recommends him for is guarding Padme with Obi-Wan. It was the Council's decision to send him to Naboo with her, even though Obi-Wan didn't agree. He has no control over Anakin's training. Though he does have control in putting him in situations where Anakin can and will be tempted by the Dark Side.

And as far as I have been able to grasp from the books and movies, Anakin wasn't originally part of his plans anyways. Had his original plot gone through in TPM (with the Queen not escaping, etc...) Anakin would still be on Tatooine.

Most of their interfering with his goals are them interfering with the plans of a Sith. They are not interfering with Palpatine's directives, orders, etc...as the Supreme Chancellor. But what they are interfering with are his plans as a Dark Lord of the Sith. We have seen in the movies, the books, comics, games, throughout the whole universe that the Sith don't use their power for good. So naturally they are going to be interfering with the Sith Lord's plans, they just do not know he is Palpatine in disguise. Unless of course you do not believe that the Sith are bad and Jedi good. *shrug*

Palpatine's plans are not for the good of the people. They are for him to seize absolute power over the entire galaxy. They look all nice and sweet on top. But each law passed in the senate, directive passed, what have you, it only increases Palpatine's power to rule the galaxy as he sees fit.

If I misinterpreted any of your ways of them undermining Palpatine's, the Supreme Chancellor, orders, please explain. I see them interfering with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, not Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. And as things start to become clearer to them, they begin to question his true motives. *shrug*[/quote]
And Palpatine is Darth Sidious, so whether they're orders from Darth Sidious or Senator/Chancellor Palpatine is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that it's the same person giving the orders, and thereby any action taken to disrupt those orders, whether they be "Sithy" or "Senatorial" are in fact in conflict with one man and his objectives. He may present a different side of himself to different characters, yes, but like we've seen throughout the Saga, appearances can be deceiving--hell, they are deceiving, lol.

It's not so much as the Jedi being good and Sith being evil, or Sith being good and Jedi being evil, either. I've said it before and I'll say it again...the Saga is all about point of view. I read the script to Episode III last night, and while the scene's writing for that idea isn't as solid as Obi-Wan in RotJ, "point of view" is definitely one of the major themes in the Saga, so it's unfair (to the films themselves and to Lucas) to categorize Sith=evil and Jedi=good, because it's not black and white. The films aren't that simple.

Palpatine's goal is to command an Empire, yes, an Empire that can do anything...that isn't burdened by squabbling Senators. Palpatine is going to rule the Empire, but he's going to be able to get things done, like snapping a galaxy into shape, establishing a standard currency (really, everything that Count Dooku was saying).

[quote]That doesn't say anything about the Clones. One Jedi refusing to believe that the system exists doesn't speak for the whole. The Clones were not even in any of the Jedi's minds at that moment, they had no inkling. It shows that this one Jedi doesn't believe that the system is in existant because she believes the Archives to be complete. It doesn't show that the Jedi failed to believe Obi-Wan about a Clone army being built.

When he informs Yoda, Mace, etc.. about the existance of the Clone Army, they do not deny it. They accept it. And admit their failing in seeing the creation of it.[/quote]
Does Yoda believe Obi-Wan, though? He brings him the report of Kamino, and the location, but is perplexed why he can't find it. Yoda actually mocks him for it ("Lost a planet, Obi-Wan has"), then turns to the children for an answer to Obi-Wan's question. I don't think Yoda exactly welcomes him with open arms. It's more condescending and mocking than anything else.

I'd have to watch Episode II again, but I seem to recall Obi-Wan informing Mace and Yoda about the Clone Army through a hologram when he's on Kamino.

[quote]They obviously don't disregard what he says. The fact that the are keeping an eye on the Senate shows action on their part. Not a lot of action, but action nonetheless. They didn't act on it fully because they had no clue how Sidious could have control of the Senate. He could be the Supreme Chancellor. He could be a background guy who just has people in the Senate under his control.

It all goes back to the fact that they were not able to see any of the events unfolding. They weren't able to see the Clones being created. They weren't able to tell that Palpatine was a Sith, even with him right across from them. Imagine the conflicts that would arise had they informed anyone that their powers have diminished? Chaos I am sure. The powerful Jedi. Not even able to see a Dark Lord of the Sith right across the table from them.

A failing in their teachings in my book. *shrug*[/QUOTE]
I think it's more than just a failing of their teachings, though...I think it's a serious flaw in their fundamental approach. They base their decision on one fact and one alone: that Dooku has joined the Dark Side, and therefore is unreliable. They're basing their decision on a superficial quality...on an appearance, basically.

Because Dooku was "evil," he must not be telling the truth...that's ********, lol, because he was telling the truth, and had the Jedi acted with a bit more enthusiasm rather than "let's keep it in mind but just see how things go," the outcome might not have been what it was.

Since we're talking about the Jedi Council's supposed "effectiveness," I think it's worth mentioning that one of the major reasons Anakin falls is because the Council doesn't respect him enough to treat him like an ally (this is explained more fully in Episode III). He is given consideration, yes, but he wants more than just being second-string. He has the power to lead, to lead the Jedi to victory, and the Council shuns him. They squander an incredible opportunity by minimizing Anakin's potential.

[Foshi Foci]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=Indigo]Okay, on a different note have you guys heard the new OST? The tracks are quite good. It isn't better than TPM OST, but there is a good chorus track and some other great action music.[/COLOR][/FONT] :animesmil

[Wormmon's Tamer]

Yes! I have the Episode VI one and I love it! I listen to it all the time!

[Zeta]

Apologies for not replying sooner. Been caught up with Galaxies too much. ^_^;;


[QUOTE]And Palpatine is Darth Sidious, so whether they're orders from Darth Sidious or Senator/Chancellor Palpatine is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that it's the same person giving the orders, and thereby any action taken to disrupt those orders, whether they be "Sithy" or "Senatorial" are in fact in conflict with one man and his objectives. He may present a different side of himself to different characters, yes, but like we've seen throughout the Saga, appearances can be deceiving--hell, they are deceiving, lol.[/QUOTE]

Of course. But he isn't going to be using them disrupting his plans as Sidious to his advantage. He isn't going to come out and say "you interfered with my invasion of Naboo", or "You killed my apprentice Darth Maul." He cannot use them disrupting his plans to his advantage and tell the public they are doing so.

[QUOTE]It's not so much as the Jedi being good and Sith being evil, or Sith being good and Jedi being evil, either. I've said it before and I'll say it again...the Saga is all about point of view. I read the script to Episode III last night, and while the scene's writing for that idea isn't as solid as Obi-Wan in RotJ, "point of view" is definitely one of the major themes in the Saga, so it's unfair (to the films themselves and to Lucas) to categorize Sith=evil and Jedi=good, because it's not black and white. The films aren't that simple.[/QUOTE]

Could you provide me with a link to the script? :D

[QUOTE]Does Yoda believe Obi-Wan, though? He brings him the report of Kamino, and the location, but is perplexed why he can't find it. Yoda actually mocks him for it ("Lost a planet, Obi-Wan has"), then turns to the children for an answer to Obi-Wan's question. I don't think Yoda exactly welcomes him with open arms. It's more condescending and mocking than anything else.

I'd have to watch Episode II again, but I seem to recall Obi-Wan informing Mace and Yoda about the Clone Army through a hologram when he's on Kamino.[/QUOTE]

I just saw Yoda there trying to humor the Jedi children. *shrug* Yes he does inform them about the Clone Army. But they do not believe he is wrong or lying in any way. They believe him. And admit it themselves that they are blind as to the creation of it.

[QUOTE]
Since we're talking about the Jedi Council's supposed "effectiveness," I think it's worth mentioning that one of the major reasons Anakin falls is because the Council doesn't respect him enough to treat him like an ally (this is explained more fully in Episode III). He is given consideration, yes, but he wants more than just being second-string. He has the power to lead, to lead the Jedi to victory, and the Council shuns him. They squander an incredible opportunity by minimizing Anakin's potential.[/QUOTE]

I myself think they had reason to limit [i]some[/i] privileges granted to him. I mean, look at what he did to the Tusken Raiders in AOTC. Pure anger there. Not something the Jedi want. He disobeys orders to remain on Naboo beforehand. He doubts Obi-Wan's abilities. He is headstrong, arrogant, and angry. Throughout the books we see Anakin portraying the traits that a Jedi is not supposed to, and this is why they held him back.

[spoiler] I mean look at the Jedi Council scene in the trailer. Where Mace says you are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master. I think they were justified with this judgment. Anakin didn't prove/earn his seat on the Council. Palpatine appointed him there. Just because he is on the Council, doesn't mean he is to become a Master. I completely agree with the Council's judgment.[/spoiler]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Apologies for not replying sooner. Been caught up with Galaxies too much. ^_^;;[/quote]
Galaxies? Star Wars Galaxies? Gag me with a spoon, lol. How's it like these days, anyway? Any better than 1.5 years ago?

[quote]Of course. But he isn't going to be using them disrupting his plans as Sidious to his advantage. He isn't going to come out and say "you interfered with my invasion of Naboo", or "You killed my apprentice Darth Maul." He cannot use them disrupting his plans to his advantage and tell the public they are doing so.[/quote]
True, he's not going to "come out," but only an idiot would...and Palpatine is far from an idiot, and also far from two different people. He's Darth Sidious through and through. Even when he's posing as a Senator/Chancellor, he still acts fully as Darth Sidious, because Sidious is only concerned with what he wants, and any action taken by Senator/Chancellor Palpatine is focused to that end. I'd go as far as to say there really is no Senator Palpatine at all.

In Episode I, when the two Trade Federation officials are speaking with Sidious, that chin is very prominent, and we see Palpatine a few scenes later, and BAM! There's the chin.

Appearance-wise, yeah, there are differences (mostly just superficial clothing, though). Character-wise (particularly goal-oriented)...there's only one character there: Darth Sidious.

[quote]Could you provide me with a link to the script? :D [/quote]
Sure.

[url=http://scripts.cgispy.com/newsboard.cgi?action=view&num=2&user=script][u]Episode III[/u][/url]

I believe the script is legit. It seems pretty solid in terms of characterization, dialogue, settings, pacing, etc, in that it mirrors the other prequel scripts.

[quote]I just saw Yoda there trying to humor the Jedi children. *shrug* Yes he does inform them about the Clone Army. But they do not believe he is wrong or lying in any way. They believe him. And admit it themselves that they are blind as to the creation of it.[/quote]
I more see that scene as Yoda mocking Obi-Wan. I mean, just look at what the scene is: Obi-Wan comes to Yoda with a problem. Obi-Wan can't solve the problem. Yoda clearly knows the answer, but instead has the young Jedi-in-training children solve it.

What is Yoda saying by doing that?

That Obi-Wan just got pwned by children..."Great Jedi, yes, but stumped by a mystery a child could solve." That's not his precise dialogue, but that's the implication of what he says.

[quote]I myself think they had reason to limit some privileges granted to him. I mean, look at what he did to the Tusken Raiders in AOTC. Pure anger there. Not something the Jedi want. He disobeys orders to remain on Naboo beforehand. He doubts Obi-Wan's abilities. He is headstrong, arrogant, and angry. Throughout the books we see Anakin portraying the traits that a Jedi is not supposed to, and this is why they held him back.

[spoiler]I mean look at the Jedi Council scene in the trailer. Where Mace says you are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master. I think they were justified with this judgment. Anakin didn't prove/earn his seat on the Council. Palpatine appointed him there. Just because he is on the Council, doesn't mean he is to become a Master. I completely agree with the Council's judgment.[/spoiler][/QUOTE]
What books? Not EU, I hope, because they aren't reliable. The Jedi-Deception part we mentioned earlier is testament to that.

I think we're agreed that there are some serious flaws in the Jedi Council's approach and methodology. That much is clear from the films themselves, and while the Sandpeople scene from AOTC is certainly indicative of a bit of a rage issue in Anakin, and his attitude is certainly that of an arrogant teenager, I don't think that warrants how the Council treats him.

Instead of actually giving him an ear and a family, they turn him out into the cold, essentially. There are fleeting glimpses of compassion, but it's too little, too late. Mace and Yoda support him, okay, but they were too late there. They treated Anakin like **** pretty much all up until that point.

Anakin is pissed because the Council hasn't respected his abilities from the start. When he's standing in front of the Council in Episode I, when he's a child, he has enormous potential there and Yoda & CO. don't even express a remote interest in his proposed tutelage.

There's no doubt in my mind that if the Jedi Council had actually done something meaningful in Anakin's development, his chances of falling to the Dark Side would have decreased dramatically. He had no family in the Council up until that point of "critical mass" in Episode II. Does that color the Council positively? I think it's far more negative, actually.

Instead of utilizing his strengths throughout, they treat him as a last resort--and use him as a last resort.

Is that going to make things better? lol

The Council makes a mess out of everything...Anakin's training, Darth Sidious, Sith Lords, internal affairs...everything.

[Zeta]

[QUOTE] Galaxies? Star Wars Galaxies? Gag me with a spoon, lol. How's it like these days, anyway? Any better than 1.5 years ago?[/QUOTE]

Well it gets kind of boring at times because I do not like being so weak. But I am pushing myself to play so I can get stronger and master some professions so it can get fun, heh.

[QUOTE]I more see that scene as Yoda mocking Obi-Wan. I mean, just look at what the scene is: Obi-Wan comes to Yoda with a problem. Obi-Wan can't solve the problem. Yoda clearly knows the answer, but instead has the young Jedi-in-training children solve it.

What is Yoda saying by doing that?

That Obi-Wan just got pwned by children..."Great Jedi, yes, but stumped by a mystery a child could solve." That's not his precise dialogue, but that's the implication of what he says.[/QUOTE]

I am not too sure about this. I mean look at children today and with art. They draw what they see. As you progress in life and learn more you are caught up with everything having to be perfect, so you go back and erase constantly and get it or you don't. My art teacher always told us to "draw what we see, not what we know." I think it can be applied to this situation as well.

As an adult, Obi-Wan is going to be thinking of ideas left and right. He has the knowledge to know countless possibilities for something happen. He isn't going to think of the most obvious answer, he is going to think of a complex one. It is the same with people nowadays. Lots of time people miss the answers/problems completely, even if it is staring them in the face. A child isn't going to be having a life?s worth of experience in him/her. They are going to see the easiest answer, the one that makes sense straight away to them.

[QUOTE]
What books? Not EU, I hope, because they aren't reliable. The Jedi-Deception part we mentioned earlier is testament to that.[/QUOTE]

What do we know from the movies? The Jedi have the ability to influence the weak-minded. They can pull levitate objects. They can sometimes catch glimpses of the future. They can feel each other in the Force. They can sense your feelings and thoughts. They can sense the light side. They can sense the dark side. With all these abilities we know, we can make educated guesses as to what they can do. It isn't a far out idea that they can sense deception.

[QUOTE]Instead of actually giving him an ear and a family, they turn him out into the cold, essentially. There are fleeting glimpses of compassion, but it's too little, too late. Mace and Yoda support him, okay, but they were too late there. They treated Anakin like **** pretty much all up until that point.[/QUOTE]

Up until what point? ATOC? By the time of the movie there is much greater acceptance as to who he is and what is abilities can be. It obviously happens in his training before ATOC comes along.

I agree with you. The Council is at fault. But they are not the only ones at fault. I also believe that if they had trained him differently the chances of him turning to the Dark Side would be less. But the Jedi of old has been following a teaching system that has been going on for thousands of years, without change as far as I am aware. Failings in their teachings. Changes needed to be done.

And it became possible with the Old Jedi being practically wiped out, save a few. Any other time the Old Jedi Order collapsed there was the chance of change. But the ones that survived never looked to themselves as possibly being the cause of their own failings. And with Luke having very little training of the Old Order is now able to make those changes. (most of these two paragraphs are in regards to Gavin for our earlier debate)

But I still do believe that some of the Councils actions are warranted. Anakin has show throughout the movies, not just the books that he is not ready to become what he truly wants. He is full of anger, as seen with the Tusken Raiders. He is overconfident in his own abilities. Just look at him when he fought Dooku. Had he listened to Obi-Wan the chances of victory would have been greater. He disobeys direct orders to remain on Naboo. There are reasons why the Council acts the way they do. All their actions are not unjustified.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Well it gets kind of boring at times because I do not like being so weak. But I am pushing myself to play so I can get stronger and master some professions so it can get fun, heh.[/quote]
*waves his hand in front of you*

You don't need to play Star Wars Galaxies, nor pay the monthly fee. It's not the online RPG you're looking for. [i]GuildWars[/i]...

[quote]I am not too sure about this. I mean look at children today and with art. They draw what they see. As you progress in life and learn more you are caught up with everything having to be perfect, so you go back and erase constantly and get it or you don't. My art teacher always told us to "draw what we see, not what we know." I think it can be applied to this situation as well.

As an adult, Obi-Wan is going to be thinking of ideas left and right. He has the knowledge to know countless possibilities for something happen. He isn't going to think of the most obvious answer, he is going to think of a complex one. It is the same with people nowadays. Lots of time people miss the answers/problems completely, even if it is staring them in the face. A child isn't going to be having a life?s worth of experience in him/her. They are going to see the easiest answer, the one that makes sense straight away to them.[/quote]
Yes...Yoda had children solve something that Obi-Wan couldn't...and the children solved it right in front of him in a matter of seconds. I'd say that isn't exactly making Obi-Wan look good, lol.

[quote][u][b]What do we know from the movies?[/b][/u] The Jedi have the ability to influence the weak-minded. They can pull levitate objects. They can sometimes catch glimpses of the future. They can feel each other in the Force. They can sense your feelings and thoughts. They can sense the light side. They can sense the dark side. With all these abilities we know, we can make educated guesses as to what they can do. It isn't a far out idea that they can sense deception.[/quote]
Zeta, it [i]is[/i] a far out idea that they can sense deception, because it's established in the films that they [i]can't[/i].

1) They can't sense Darth Sidious, a Sith Lord. Incidentally, having a Sith Lord sitting next to you should do something to the Force. Even Vader is able to sense something as simple as Luke's thoughts in RotJ. The Jedi Council should have been able to detect Sidious.

2) They couldn't detect Palpatine's deception, even when he was sitting right in front of them.

3) They missed entirely the entire Clone Army development until Obi-Wan happened to stumble across it on Kamino.

They get played for fools the entire time. We know from the movies that they can't sense deception, because if they could, the films would have turned out differently. You're not making an educated guess here, because the films have clearly established the Jedi Council as wholly incompetent, lol.

[quote]Up until what point? ATOC? By the time of the movie there is much greater acceptance as to who he is and what is abilities can be. It obviously happens in his training before ATOC comes along. [/quote]
You mean the gopher/bodyguard/escort quests they send him out on? lol "Protect Amidala" "Escort Amidala" "Go for that" Yes, they're really giving him assignments that enable him to shine, that give the impression they really value him as a Jedi, lol. They express their admiration to Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan is not Anakin.

[quote]I agree with you. The Council is at fault. But they are not the only ones at fault. I also believe that if they had trained him differently the chances of him turning to the Dark Side would be less. But the Jedi of old has been following a teaching system that has been going on for thousands of years, without change as far as I am aware. Failings in their teachings. Changes needed to be done.

And it became possible with the Old Jedi being practically wiped out, save a few. Any other time the Old Jedi Order collapsed there was the chance of change. But the ones that survived never looked to themselves as possibly being the cause of their own failings. And with Luke having very little training of the Old Order is now able to make those changes. (most of these two paragraphs are in regards to Gavin for our earlier debate)

But I still do believe that some of the Councils actions are warranted. Anakin has show throughout the movies, not just the books that he is not ready to become what he truly wants. He is full of anger, as seen with the Tusken Raiders. He is overconfident in his own abilities. Just look at him when he fought Dooku. Had he listened to Obi-Wan the chances of victory would have been greater. He disobeys direct orders to remain on Naboo. There are reasons why the Council acts the way they do. All their actions are not unjustified.[/QUOTE]
Even though most of this was directed at Gavin, more or less, I do want to comment on it, if you don't mind.

I'm not arguing that the teachings of the Jedi Order aren't detrimental, but the only reason the teachings prove detrimental are because the actual members of the Council are complete tools. lol

They refuse to budge any more than an inch for most of the films, so while the teachings are an issue, the personalities of the Council members are really what holds the Council (and the Jedi Order) back. It's an important distinction to understand: the teachings are simply that: teachings. They can be changed with the times, provided those in power understand the need for change...and the members of the Council largely do not understand the need for change.

Honestly, Anakin and Palpatine were the best thing to happen to the Jedi Order, because it showed the Order just how "braindead" they were. Yeah, Anakin's gung-ho...but maybe that's what was needed.

I don't think many stop to think that Anakin is not the reason why everything falls apart. He actually has a better mentality and approach than the Council themselves. He's open to the idea of emotion in his life; he welcomes love and affection.

He's not afraid to take action when action needs to be taken. I think the chase in the opening of AOTC is testament to this. Obi-Wan's freaking out when Anakin's zooming through the city, but what Obi-Wan doesn't realize is that Anakin's got the right idea. Yes, it's dangerous, but so is starfighting, so are lightsaber duels, so is living out in the Dune Sea of Tatooine (and Obi-Wan definitely takes that action, because it's what needs to be done).

[Zeta]

[QUOTE] *waves his hand in front of you*

You don't need to play Star Wars Galaxies, nor pay the monthly fee. It's not the online RPG you're looking for. GuildWars...[/QUOTE]

Nah man. I have always wanted to be [i]in[/i] the Star Wars universe. And this is the closest I am going to get. ^_^

[QUOTE]
1) They can't sense Darth Sidious, a Sith Lord. Incidentally, having a Sith Lord sitting next to you should do something to the Force. Even Vader is able to sense something as simple as Luke's thoughts in RotJ. The Jedi Council should have been able to detect Sidious.

2) They couldn't detect Palpatine's deception, even when he was sitting right in front of them.

3) They missed entirely the entire Clone Army development until Obi-Wan happened to stumble across it on Kamino.[/QUOTE]

The dark side is a powerful tool on Palpatine's side. He could easily block the creation of the Clone Army. But the fact that the Jedi couldn't sense the dark side in Palpatine is the fault of the Council themselves. They have been Sith free for 1000 years. They are ignorant of the fact that the Sith are still out there, and have let their teachings show.

I believe we have to take the EU into consideration in the Star Wars universe. It is a continuation of the Star Wars story. Books have to be approved beforehand. I don't believe that Lucas would approve something that isn't true. *shrug* This argument will keep going on because we both hvae different beliefs as to what we can bring in for proof and what can't.

[QUOTE]You mean the gopher/bodyguard/escort quests they send him out on? lol "Protect Amidala" "Escort Amidala" "Go for that" Yes, they're really giving him assignments that enable him to shine, that give the impression they really value him as a Jedi, lol. They express their admiration to Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan is not Anakin.[/QUOTE]

I cannot comment on this if we are leaving the EU out of this. I am referring to the acceptance he gains before AOTC. Books that include [i]Rogue Planet[/i] (where he shows dark side tendancies at a very young age, another reason to limit his choices), [i]Labyrinth of Evil[/i], being given command of Clone Troopers.

[QUOTE]They refuse to budge any more than an inch for most of the films, so while the teachings are an issue, the personalities of the Council members are really what holds the Council (and the Jedi Order) back. It's an important distinction to understand: the teachings are simply that: teachings. They can be changed with the times, provided those in power understand the need for change...and the members of the Council largely do not understand the need for change.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I have been trying to say that but for some reason the words never were able to come out of my hands right, heh.

I am going to just quote some of the things you have said Siren, in regards to my post which will once again be more towards Gavin.

[QUOTE]He's open to the idea of emotion in his life; he welcomes love and affection.[/QUOTE]

Luke has brought this mentality into his order as well, as seen by his marriage, Corrans marriage, and I am sure there are others, heh.

[QUOTE] He's not afraid to take action when action needs to be taken.[/QUOTE]

This was a big problem with the Old Jedi Order. We see countless instances where the Jedi do not act when actions should be taken. The hesitate in KOTOR to enter the Mandalorian Wars. And as Siren pointed out, they failed to take apporiate actions in regards to the events unfolding in front of them by the time of the Prequels.

Back to the Vong and the Old Jedi Order. I still do not believe that they would have stood any more of a chance against them than Luke's Order did.

The Old Order would not have immediatly taken steps into their own hands to protect the Republic. They would have been looking for diplomatic means to solve the problem which wouldn't have workd. They are hell-bent on their belief that they are not soldiers. By the time they did take up the role of soldiers, it would have been just as bad, if not worse than what Luke's order went through.

Luke's order is bred for action. They have been taking action into their own hands to ensure the peoples, as well as their own, lives are safe. The Jedi were all ready acting on the threat before the New Republic officially acted on it. I believe that this was ultimatly the reason for the New Republic's success.

*shrug* I just believe without a doubt that Luke's Order is the only order that could face the Vong and triumphant.

P.S. Siren, would it be possible for you to e-mail the Episode III script as an attachment? The website refuses to load for me. :mad:

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Nah man. I have always wanted to be in the Star Wars universe. And this is the closest I am going to get. ^_^[/quote]
Haha, fair enough. I guess trying to ride in bugged speeders, trying to fight bugged Dathomir Nightsisters, trying to complete bugged missions is being in the Star Wars universe. After all, what other sci-fi films have grungy machines that just don't work half the time? =p

[quote]The dark side is a powerful tool on Palpatine's side. He could easily block the creation of the Clone Army. But the fact that the Jedi couldn't sense the dark side in Palpatine is the fault of the Council themselves. They have been Sith free for 1000 years. They are ignorant of the fact that the Sith are still out there, and have let their teachings show.[/quote]
I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say here. On one hand, you're defending the Council, because Palpatine could have used the Dark Side to cloud their cognition, but in the next sentence, you're criticizing the Council for never sensing Palpatine himself, and for believing the Sith to be eradicated.

The problem with your supposition that Palpatine might have been using the Dark Side of the Force to "block" the Council is that there's nothing in Episodes I and II, or in the script to Episode III, to indicate that. I can't recall one instance of anything being said that would relate to that.

[quote]I believe we have to take the EU into consideration in the Star Wars universe. It is a continuation of the Star Wars story. Books have to be approved beforehand. [u][b]I don't believe that Lucas would approve something that isn't true[/b][/u]. *shrug* This argument will keep going on because we both hvae different beliefs as to what we can bring in for proof and what can't.

I cannot comment on this if we are leaving the EU out of this. I am referring to the acceptance he gains before AOTC. Books that include Rogue Planet (where he shows dark side tendancies at a very young age, another reason to limit his choices), Labyrinth of Evil, being given command of Clone Troopers.[/quote]
I seriously doubt that George Lucas himself has enough time to read some 50, 300-page novels each year. The most likely scenario is that his assistants are reading the works for him, then giving him synopses. That's how it works in Hollywood regarding script submissions, and I don't see why it'd be any different here.

The only way for the EU to be actual canon (or remotely relevant or reliable) was if Lucas were to read [i]every single[/i] novel, play [i]every single[/i] game, read [i]every single[/i] comic book, [i]multiple[/i] times over to make sure all the material within is accurate and [i]then[/i] approve them.

I'm positive that's not happening.

[quote]Thank you. I have been trying to say that but for some reason the words never were able to come out of my hands right, heh.

I am going to just quote some of the things you have said Siren, in regards to my post which will once again be more towards Gavin.

Luke has brought this mentality into his order as well, as seen by his marriage, Corrans marriage, and I am sure there are others, heh.

This was a big problem with the Old Jedi Order. We see countless instances where the Jedi do not act when actions should be taken. The hesitate in KOTOR to enter the Mandalorian Wars. And as Siren pointed out, they failed to take apporiate actions in regards to the events unfolding in front of them by the time of the Prequels.

Back to the Vong and the Old Jedi Order. I still do not believe that they would have stood any more of a chance against them than Luke's Order did.

The Old Order would not have immediatly taken steps into their own hands to protect the Republic. They would have been looking for diplomatic means to solve the problem which wouldn't have workd. They are hell-bent on their belief that they are not soldiers. By the time they did take up the role of soldiers, it would have been just as bad, if not worse than what Luke's order went through.

Luke's order is bred for action. They have been taking action into their own hands to ensure the peoples, as well as their own, lives are safe. The Jedi were all ready acting on the threat before the New Republic officially acted on it. I believe that this was ultimatly the reason for the New Republic's success.

*shrug* I just believe without a doubt that Luke's Order is the only order that could face the Vong and triumphant.[/quote]
Well, hold on a second...you're talking about an EU based on the end of RotJ, and based on an interpretation that Luke was Light Side...Luke wasn't Light Side. He was "neutral" at most. His "moment of truth" at the end of RotJ wasn't a reversal...he was merely drifting closer to neutral. It's the same thing with Vader.

They're not instant character changes...it's always gradual, even Vader. He starts drifting away from Palpatine in the middle of Empire Strikes Back. It's not as if he suddenly turns in the Finale of RotJ.

The EU material paints a much more rosy picture of the Finale than is really there.

[quote]P.S. Siren, would it be possible for you to e-mail the Episode III script as an attachment? The website refuses to load for me. :mad:[/QUOTE]
Yeah. I'll get to that tomorrow.

[Zeta]

[QUOTE]I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say here. On one hand, you're defending the Council, because Palpatine could have used the Dark Side to cloud their cognition, but in the next sentence, you're criticizing the Council for never sensing Palpatine himself, and for believing the Sith to be eradicated.

The problem with your supposition that Palpatine might have been using the Dark Side of the Force to "block" the Council is that there's nothing in Episodes I and II, or in the script to Episode III, to indicate that. I can't recall one instance of anything being said that would relate to that.[/QUOTE]

Again, I am basing my opinions off of the EU, particularly [i]Labriynth of Evil[/i]. But it is also mostly common sense. We do know that the Jedi are able to sense Force users. Are in in an agreement about that at least? Yoda and the tree on Dagobah...Vader saying the Force is strong in Luke in the Death Star trench....

It is then logical to assume that they can do so as well in the PT. But they do not sense Palpatine, even with him sitting right across a table from them. Why?

1) We know that Palpatine is a powerful user of the Dark Side. With power such as his it would be hard pressed to miss when meditating, etc...

2) The Jedi's teachings have been waning. They have remain virtually the same for centuries. As you pointed out, they do not see the need for change. Teachings and ways of life that have failed throughout their time.

Put two and two together. With the Jedi's teacing waning and the Jedi's inability to adapt tot he times, Palpatine will have a much easier chance in getting away with "cloaking" himself to them.[spoiler]In [i]Labriynth of Evil[/i] Yoda is meditating and suddenly feels Sidious on Coruscant. He just appears virtually out of no where.[/spoiler] He had to have been hiding his Force powers, it is what makes sense as to why the Council cannot realize he is a Sith. I don't believe that the Jedi were [i]that[/i] blind as to be 100% their own fault for failing to realize the truth behind Palpatine.

[QUOTE]I seriously doubt that George Lucas himself has enough time to read some 50, 300-page novels each year. The most likely scenario is that his assistants are reading the works for him, then giving him synopses. That's how it works in Hollywood regarding script submissions, and I don't see why it'd be any different here.

The only way for the EU to be actual canon (or remotely relevant or reliable) was if Lucas were to read every single novel, play every single game, read every single comic book, multiple times over to make sure all the material within is accurate and then approve them.

I'm positive that's not happening.[/QUOTE]

Well yeah. I don't think he would allow them to go against his own works. He has said it himself that Star Wars is [i]his[/i]. I don't think he would allow them to go against what he has set up, whether by adding things or taking away things.

[QUOTE]Well, hold on a second...you're talking about an EU based on the end of RotJ, and based on an interpretation that Luke was Light Side...Luke wasn't Light Side. He was "neutral" at most. His "moment of truth" at the end of RotJ wasn't a reversal...he was merely drifting closer to neutral. It's the same thing with Vader.

They're not instant character changes...it's always gradual, even Vader. He starts drifting away from Palpatine in the middle of Empire Strikes Back. It's not as if he suddenly turns in the Finale of RotJ.

The EU material paints a much more rosy picture of the Finale than is really there.[/QUOTE]

:animestun Huh? I'm not saying Luke is Light or Dark. I am just saying that he is changing the teachings and basic fundamentals of the Jedi of his Order. He has changed the teachings of the old by allowing marriage, and taking on older students. And I only compared the pace in which each Order would have handled the Vong threat.

Unless I am completely missing what you are saying?

[Brasil]

Before I go into the larger portion of it, I wanted to isolate one statement:

[quote]2) The Jedi's teachings have been waning. They have remain virtually the same for centuries. As you pointed out, they do not see the need for change. Teachings and ways of life that have failed throughout their time.[/quote]
Zeta, you need to make the distinction here, and use language that effectively conveys what you want to say. The Jedi [i]teachings[/i] have [i]not[/i] waned. They haven't decreased...they haven't become minimized. They've stayed the same.

The focus here is not on their teachings failing them...because the teachings were not the main reason that the Jedi Council/Old Order got decimated. I harp on this because it's a point you need to understand here.

The Jedi's [i]approach[/i]/[i]attitude[/i] is what doomed the Old Order. There is a key difference between approach/attitude and teachings.

If it were not for the Jedi's attitudes, the Old Order would have remained intact, because they would not have been so pretentious as to believe they were the pinnacle of the social order. Had their [i]attitudes[/i] been different, they would have realized the need for massive changes in how they presided over the Order.

The [i]attitude[/i] was the bane of the Order...[i]not[/i] their teachings. Not seeing the need for change is related to the [i]attitude[/i], [i]not[/i] the teachings.

[QUOTE=Zeta]Again, I am basing my opinions off of the EU, particularly [i]Labriynth of Evil[/i]. But it is also mostly common sense. We do know that the Jedi are able to sense Force users. Are in in an agreement about that at least? Yoda and the tree on Dagobah...Vader saying the Force is strong in Luke in the Death Star trench....

It is then logical to assume that they can do so as well in the PT. But they do not sense Palpatine, even with him sitting right across a table from them. Why?

1) We know that Palpatine is a powerful user of the Dark Side. With power such as his it would be hard pressed to miss when meditating, etc...

2) The Jedi's teachings have been waning. They have remain virtually the same for centuries. As you pointed out, they do not see the need for change. Teachings and ways of life that have failed throughout their time.

Put two and two together. With the Jedi's teacing waning and the Jedi's inability to adapt tot he times, Palpatine will have a much easier chance in getting away with "cloaking" himself to them.[spoiler]In [i]Labriynth of Evil[/i] Yoda is meditating and suddenly feels Sidious on Coruscant. He just appears virtually out of no where.[/spoiler] He had to have been hiding his Force powers, it is what makes sense as to why the Council cannot realize he is a Sith. I don't believe that the Jedi were [i]that[/i] blind as to be 100% their own fault for failing to realize the truth behind Palpatine.[/quote]
I am putting 2 and 2 together, and the Jedi Council are coming off as increasingly incompetent. We're talking about a SITH LORD sitting across from them, and they don't even get so much as a chill?

I realize the power of the Dark Side, and Palpatine's power, is immense, but when they've got a Sith Lord right in front of them and they can't feel anything...I'm sorry, but I can't chalk that one up to uber-powerful Dark Siders. I chalk that failure up to an incompetent Jedi Council.

I don't see how bringing in the OT is supposed to help your argument, because if anything, it's just further portraying the Old Order as hopelessly incompetent. I mean...on Dagobah, Luke feels the cave, and he's [i]barely[/i] a Padawan at that point.

If a [i]Novice[/i] can be attuned to the Force enough to feel a coldness coming from a cave, and know enough to know that it's something entirely different than just usual swamp stuff...what excuse does a Jedi Master have for missing a Sith Lord? In fact, what excuse does an [i]entire Council[/i] of [i]Jedi Masters[/i] has? None, lol.

I'm talking about the actual films here, because the films are canon. Anything we see in the films takes precedent over what we read in the EU, and what we see in the films here does in fact do that.

[quote]Well yeah. I don't think he would allow them to go against his own works. He has said it himself that Star Wars is [i]his[/i]. I don't think he would allow them to go against what he has set up, whether by adding things or taking away things.[/quote]
Yes, Star Wars is his, but that doesn't mean that his assistants aren't going to be mis-reading the texts, or mis-judging a character, unintentionally explaining the plot developments incorrectly. The EU [i]is[/i] unreliable.

[quote]:animestun Huh? I'm not saying Luke is Light or Dark. I am just saying that he is changing the teachings and basic fundamentals of the Jedi of his Order. He has changed the teachings of the old by allowing marriage, and taking on older students. And I only compared the pace in which each Order would have handled the Vong threat.

Unless I am completely missing what you are saying?[/QUOTE]
I think you are missing what I'm saying. From what I gather from your posts, you're pretty confident in Luke's New Order. You're more or less praising them, and I wanted to make it clear that I don't have the same confidence that you do, for mainly two reasons. (if more come to me, I'll edit them in...I've been up all night playing GuildWars, hehe)

1) The EU is unreliable in general when discussing the films themselves. There are contradictions...there are characterization issues, pacing issues, development issues...even issues in the approaches of various characters (in our discussion here, the approach inconsistency becomes very clear).

2) The EU post-RotJ is unreliable because any text in the EU that focuses on Luke's New Order, and operates under the assumption/interpretation that Luke was Light Side or redeemed at the end of RotJ, is unreliable. It's unreliable because Luke was [i]not[/i] Light Side at the end of RotJ. The New Order is nowhere near as secure as the EU or its readership makes it out to be, because Luke isn't squeaky-clean "Leave it to Beaver" at the end of RotJ.