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The Quran is the word of God

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[COLOR=#004a6f]I thought it would be interesting to start a topic based on the Islamic religion. However, the point of my thread is only to try to convince you that the Quran is the word of God, but not neccesarily that Islam is the "right religion".

As far as I know, there are three scriptures which have been said to be the direct word of God: the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran. However, all of us agree that the Torah and the Gospel have been changed time and time again. No two Bibles are alike.

What about the Quran? The Quran states that it is the last scripture to be sent down from God, and the God has take it upon himself to preserve it. It is true that the Quran has remained completely unchanged for over 1400 years, since the time of it's revelation. Not a single word, nor a single letter has been changed.

Cristians believe in the Torah, they believe that it was sent down by God, but they follow the Gospel because it is the most "revised" message so far. Is it not possible that yet another book would come after the Gospel? I don't that is is stated anywhere in the Gospel that no more books will proceed it.

Jesus was an Israelite/Jew right? At that time, his people were following the teachings of the Torah, but the Torah's message has been altered, and the jewish rabbis of the time were taking advantage of people using religion. Jesus comes along with his miracles and a new book. Many people start to follow Jesus' teachings. It's not like they converted or anything. They simply knew that God has sent them another prophet (or as Christians believe, his Son) down with a new book, which corrected the mistakes in the altered Torah.

Now let's take a look the the last scripture, the Quran. There is no "proof" that it is the word of God, and there is no "proof" either for the other two scriptures. But, let's take a look at the facts shall we?

First of all, the prophet Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael became the "father" of the Arabs, and Isaac became the "father" of the Israelites/Jews. Jesus (peace be upon him) is therefore and decendant of Isaac, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a decendant of Ishmael. The Arabs never had a book sent down to them like the Jews, but they still believed in God and followed the teachings of Ishmael. However, they strayed far from the right path over time. They began to engage in idol worshipping, alchohol consumption, gambling, and just about everything that went against the teachings of Ishmael. They treated their women next to animals, and even buried their daughters alive since they preferred boys. There were some Arabs, at the time as well who were Christian, meaning they believed that Jesus was the son of God (from the Islamic point of view they were following the altered Gospel).

Muhammad was born into this disgusting Arab society. Growing up, he was highly respected because he was very honest and trustworthy, and was very good at solving social disputes.

He knew there was something terribly wrong with his society's culture and religion. The Arabs would have all sorts of festivals which involved idol worshipping and alcohol consumption, but Muhammad steered clear of these habits. He often went aone to a cave in Mount Hira, to worship God and ponder about the point of his existence.

Here is his story: One day while he was up in the cave, an angel (Gabriel) came to him. Muhammad was completely terrified. No, angels do not look like beautiful human beings with wings and halos. All we know is this: They have wings, how many we're not sure, but Gabriel specifically has 300 pairs of wings. Angels are huge, and they are terrifying in their true form, at least in a human's point of view.

Anyway, Gabiriel gives Muhammad a command: "Recite,", he says. Muhammad, being [B]illiterate[/B] answers: "I am not a reciter." The angel embraces Muhammad with a rip-cracking hug and repeats the command: "Recite," he says. Again Muhammad answers, "I am not a reciter". Gabriel repeats the embrace, asking Muhammad to repeat after him and said: "Recite in the name of your Lord who created! He created man from that which clings. Recite; and thy Lord is most Bountiful, He who has taught by the pen, taught man what he knew not."

Muhammad, still terrified, repeats what the angel said and runs out of the cave. But the Gabriel follows him out of the cave. Muhamad can't even bear to look at the angel, so one can imagine how frightening Gabriel was. Muhammad turns his head to look away, but everywhere he looked, there was Gabriel. Can you even imagine something like that? When Gabriel spreads his wings, he is so Gigantic his form fills the entire sky. Then Gabriel tells Muhammad that he is the prophet of God, and that he is to carry out the God's message to mankind: The Quran.

Okay, so Muhammad (phuh) runs home to his wife Khadija and asks her to cover him (he is still scared of course). She comforts him and he tells her what happened. She calls over a cousin of hers who was Christian. Her cousin hears Muhammad out and confirms that he is indeed a prophet.

The Angel Gabriel visited the Muhammad many times over a period of twenty-three years. Gabriel taught Muhammad the verses, and Muhammad, being [B]illiterate[/B] was to memmorize them. He then repeated the verses he was taught to his companions and scribes to record on paper.

But wait a second! What if Muhammad wasn't telling the truth? What if the Quran was not the word of God?

Let's examine this question. The Quran is in Arabic, so only someone who knew Arabic well could have possibly written it. Therefore, there are only 3 possibilities of who could have possibly written it: The Arabs in general, Muhammad, or God.

When looking at the first possibility, one can already have many doubts that it was the Arabs who wrote the Quran. The Quran went against just about every aspect of their lifesyle! The Quran forbids Idol worshipping, but the Arabs loved their Idol gods and were constantly worshipping them and offering sacrifices. The Quran forbid alcohol consumption, but they Arabs freely consumed alcohol. The Quran fobid the maltreatment of women. It said to be kind to women, to treat them as human beings, and it gave women political, economical, and social rights as well. But the Arabs, as I have already said, treated women next to animals. Why would the Arabs write something that goes completely against their socity's ideals? Wouldn't they rather write something that encouraged their lifestyle?

Okay, so that rules out the possibility of the Arabs writing it, so lets look at the second possibility shall we? Could Muhammad have written the Quran?

First I would like to mention this: The Arabic language had reached its peak when it comes to grammar, vocabulary, and poetic expression in the 6th century, during Muhammad's lifetime. Poetry was something highly valued and there were many highly respected poets at the time.

When other poets read the Quran, they were completely baffled by its style and poetic qualities. It was something completely out of this world. But some people just assumed that Muhammad was a poet, and that he was very good with words. But Muhammad was [B]illiterate[/B]! It doesn't mean he was stupid, but he would not have they ability to express himself the way the Quran was expressed.

But even if Muhammad was able to express himself so beautifully consider this: The Quran was revealed bit by bit over a period of 23 years, and never did a single aspect of its style change! How could any human keep the exact style of speech for 23 years?

Furthermore, Muslims follow the sayings of the prophet (the hadith) in addition to the Quran. Muhammad expressed his teachings [B]in his own words[/B], which had a completely different style than the Quran. How could a human maintain two completely different styles of speech for 23 years?

But that gives us yet another small possibility: Maybe another individual Arab wrote the Quran, and that person also didn't agree with the pagan Arab culture.

However, the Quran has no author. Anyone who writes a book would put their name on it, but their is no name on the Quran. Furthermore, Muhammad was the only person to ever teach the Quran. He always knew the verses before anyone else.

The Quran also contained many of the same stories found in the Bible and Torah, but Muhammad had never heard of these stories himself! How could he have known? Cristians and Jews from other lands would come to Makkah and ask Muhammad to answer questions that none of the Arabs would have known. But the answer always came, and in the form of Quranic verses.

I'd say that there's enough evidence here that show the Quran is indeed the word of God. What do you make of it?[/COLOR]

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[COLOR=DarkRed][SIze=1][quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Christians believe in the Torah, they believe that it was sent down by God, but they follow the Gospel because it is the most "revised" message so far. Is it not possible that yet another book would come after the Gospel? I don't that is is stated anywhere in the Gospel that no more books will proceed it.[/COLOR][/quote]Erhm, probably not in the Gospel but somewhere in the book of Revelations, there is a passage that says something like we should not add nor take away parts of the Scriptures.
[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Why would the Arabs write something that goes completely against their society's ideals? Wouldn't they rather write something that encouraged their lifestyle?[/COLOR][/quote]1) There might be literature about their lifestyle but it didn't last as long as the Quran did.
2) There was probably a shift in the people's collective attitude and demand for once-vogue works diminished.
3) When members of the court of Castille landed on our shores, they burned volumes upon volumes of collected pre-Spanish era Philippine literature. Previous works were destroyed and records of them were lost.

So yeah, perhaps times just changed.

Perhaps the amazing stories we hear about Jesus and Muhammad were works of brilliant PR persons. What is written about them might be near-truth yet not the actually the real deal. To draw people into a system of beliefs, one has to first amaze them with miraculous instances that apparently happened, is happening and will happen to the members of their faith (i.e., raising the dead, entry to Paradise, etc). What I think is that even though the world's got thousands of different systems of belief, they will probably look similar to one another when they all boil down to their most basic structure.

Props to Chabi for another educational thread![/SIZE][/COLOR]

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Well, as a Christian, I place my faith in the Gospol, because, as was pointed out, it is said in Revelations to be the final revision of the Book; that division is what seperates our faiths. I believe that Mohammad was a great man, but I don't believe he was a prophet, because after Jesus Christ, all the prophesizing was over (According to the Christian faith.)

Granted, this is not a matter of proof; it's a matter of faith. For example, your recitation depends upon accepting that an angel visited Mohammad. Now, to me, that's an acceptable foundation for the events, but again, I already believe in such things as an immaculate conception and Resurrection.

A person who does not believe in any such things can't accept either of our faiths because they're based upon divine actions, which calls for the acceptance of Divinity. No Divinity, no acceptance.

Now, if we're going to call into question the validity of any/all Holy Scriptures, I have to say, I know that all of them have been changed over the years. Recall how intermingled with politics religion has been over the past centuries; you cannot tell me that the scriptures haven't been changed, ever so slightly, to suit the needs of those in power. After all, an entire arm of Christianity was based upon a king's desire to divorce.

So, the two points I'm getting at are:

Belief in divine actions first depends on an acceptance of Divinity; you can't convince someone whose mind is closed to that possibility.

Holy Scriptures contain the overall message of the faith, but due to the failings of hummanity, it is most likely they have been slightly altered over the centuries.

Very nice thread.

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[color=indigo]I?d say that you really haven?t proven anything except that Mohammed was a cunning linguist.

Your first error is that you cannot prove that God exists. All of your rhetoric lies in the assumption that the reader has a certain amount of spiritual faith and believes in the Old Testament or the Torah.

Your second error is assuming that because a man displayed an unusual aptitude for speaking an excellent memory and a penchant for telling tales that he was God?s prophet. Nothing that you wrote is even close to being definitively convincing.

I am by no means stating that Mohammed wasn?t God?s Prophet or that the Quran is not the word of God. I am just stating that, as entertaining and informative as your post is, you really don?t provide evidence proving your point.[/color]

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I don't believe that the writings in the Bible have changed at all. If you meant that there are many different versions of the Bible then yes. Throughout the years people have decided what to put and not to put into certain Bibles yes, but I do not believe that they changed what was actually written.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, lets say that people have changed the writings of Christianity's Bible. Ok, sure, people have done it. You claim that the Quran has never been changed. I would like to see proof. Show me the first completed one and show to me it is the same word for word. If you can provide me with that, I will believe you in a heartbeat. *shrug* Maybe I am not looking into this deep enough or exactly what you are saying.But as you said it has been 1400 years. A long time. Things can change.

[QUOTE]However, the Quran has no author. Anyone who writes a book would put their name on it, but their is no name on the Quran.[/QUOTE]

Authors don't always put their names into the books. In my Bible books such as Genesis, Deuteronomy have no clearly stated authors. I just watched a History Channel show about them trying to find the authors of various books of the Bible.

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[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]I thought it would be interesting to start a topic based on the Islamic religion. However, the point of my thread is only to try to convince you that the Quran is the word of God, but not neccesarily that Islam is the "right religion".
[/quote]

[QUOTE=Chabichou]
As far as I know, there are three scriptures which have been said to be the direct word of God: the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran. However, all of us agree that the Torah and the Gospel have been changed time and time again. No two Bibles are alike.
[/quote]
Translated time and time again, not changed. People may disagree on one man or the other's translation efforts in terms of accuracy but not in terms of content change.

John 1:1 states "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The Word is Jesus Christ, and the Bible is the Word of Christ manifested as Scripture. Jesus was the same yesterday as He is today and will be tomorrow. Since He is the Word of God, and the Word of God is the Bible, and He is unchanging, then the true Bible does not change.

[QUOTE=Chabichou]
What about the Quran? The Quran states that it is the last scripture to be sent down from God, and the God has take it upon himself to preserve it. It is true that the Quran has remained completely unchanged for over 1400 years, since the time of it's revelation. Not a single word, nor a single letter has been changed. [/QUOTE]

2nd Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."


[QUOTE=Chabichou]
Cristians believe in the Torah, they believe that it was sent down by God, but they follow the Gospel because it is the most "revised" message so far. Is it not possible that yet another book would come after the Gospel? I don't that is is stated anywhere in the Gospel that no more books will proceed it.[/quote]

The Gospel Of Christ and the Epistles of Paul and the General Epistles and the Revelation of John are not revisions of the Old Testament. They are the fulfillment of the Old Testament. The entire Old Testament leads up to Christ, here is a list of the prophecies that I put together:

The Messiah must.../ Prophecy/ Fulfillment by Jesus
Be born in Bethlehem/ Micah 5:2/ Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7
Be adored by great persons/ Psalms 72:10-11/ Matthew 2:1-11
Be annointed with the Spirit of God/ Isaiah 11:2, 61:1/ Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38
Be hated without cause/ Isaiah 49:7; Psalms 69:4/ John 15:24-25
Be undesired and rejected by His own people/ Isaiah 53:2, 63:3; Psalms 69:8/ Mark 6:3; Luke 9:58; John 1:11,
Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together/ Psalms 2:1-2/ Acts 4:27
Be betrayed by a friend/ Psalms 41:9, 55:12-24/ Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18
Be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver/ Zechariah 11:12/ Matthew 26:16
Have his price given for a potter?s field/ Zechariah 11:13/ Matthew 27:7
Be forsaken by His disciples/ Zechariah 13:7/ Matthew 26:31, 56
Be struck on the cheek/ Micah 5:1/ Matthew 27:30
Be spat on / Isaiah 50:6/ Matthew 26:67, 27:30
Be mocked / Psalms 22:7-8/ Matthew 27:31, 39-44
Be beaten / Isaiah 50:6/ Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30
Be thirsty during His execution/ Psalms 22:15/ John 19:28
Be given vinegar to quench that thirst/ Psalms 69:21/ Matthew 27:34
Be considered a transgressor / Isaiah 53:12/ Matthew 27:38
Be buried with the rich when dead / Isaiah 53:9/ Matthew 27:57-60
Be sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews/ Isaiah 11:10, 42:1/ Acts 10:45
Be accepted by the Gentiles / Isaiah 11:10, 42:1-4, 49:1-12/ Matthew 12:21; Acts 10:45; Romans 15:9-12

Be my guest and check up on this list. This is a clear indication that the Old and New Testaments are not at odds, or are revisions of each other but rather one long story: The Story of Jesus Christ. The Law of Moses was given to man to illustrate the need for a perfect sacrifice, a.k.a. the Lamb of God. Jesus was that perfect sacrifice so that all who come near to Him may go near to the Father also.

John 14:6-
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[QUOTE=Chabichou]
Jesus was an Israelite/Jew right? At that time, his people were following the teachings of the Torah, but the Torah's message has been altered, and the jewish rabbis of the time were taking advantage of people using religion. Jesus comes along with his miracles and a new book. Many people start to follow Jesus' teachings. It's not like they converted or anything. They simply knew that God has sent them another prophet (or as Christians believe, his Son) down with a new book, which corrected the mistakes in the altered Torah. [/quote]

Yes, the Law of Moses had been perverted by corrupt men. Jesus did not come to simply bring a new book, the change was too radical. He came to fulfill the law, and make man free from it. They didn't convert, they finished their religion. Judaism was the foundation system that created the situation that Jesus needed to complete His purpose.

[QUOTE=Chabichou]
But even if Muhammad was able to express himself so beautifully consider this: The Quran was revealed bit by bit over a period of 23 years, and never did a single aspect of its style change! How could any human keep the exact style of speech for 23 years?

Furthermore, Muslims follow the sayings of the prophet (the hadith) in addition to the Quran. Muhammad expressed his teachings [B]in his own words[/B], which had a completely different style than the Quran. How could a human maintain two completely different styles of speech for 23 years?

However, the Quran has no author. Anyone who writes a book would put their name on it, but their is no name on the Quran. Furthermore, Muhammad was the only person to ever teach the Quran. He always knew the verses before anyone else.
[/quote]

No doubt about it, Mudammad was a smart man. It is not difficult to maintain two distinct and untainted styles of expression, especially for a talented poet like himself. The reason he knew the verses first is because he wrote them, Gabrielle serves only one master: Jesus Christ.

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[size=1]I only have one small comment on this. You say that the Arabs wouldn't have written it. Yet you also say that Muhammed had scribes [Arab scribes] translate his 'teachings' into Arabic, and write them down. So, there were some like-minded Arabs who also felt disgusted by the state of Arabic society?

Doesn't that ruin your argument, to a degree?[/size]

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[SIZE=1]Meh. Not really willing to dissect all the points presented here.

But I believe that the Quran also contains the Pentateuch (first five books in the Bible. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). Anyway, if that is so, then wouldn't this mean that all the Holy books are equally "flawed," at least in that aspect.

And oral tradition doesn't mean that the Quran would remain flawless. Like Zeta said, things change. Yes, the Bible has been reworded, but the content is constant.

Finally, religion is a matter of [i]faith[/i]. We can sling around our rhetoric all we want, but in the end, we'll have to wait until death to see who was right. I believe in Christ, because there is alot of evidence supporting not only his existance, but his miracles he performed. Muhammad never performed any miracles ... not ever close to Christ, who changed water into wine, "woke up" a sleeping girl, or made a blind man see.[/SIZE]

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[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I'd say that there's enough evidence here that show the Quran is indeed the word of God. What do you make of it?[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=crimson]I've heard very similar sounding arguments from Christians and I wouldn't doubt that the Jews have a similar sounding argument for proving validity of their sacred texts. I'm glad that you have taken the time and the thought to learn extensively about the faith you have chosen but I unfortunately consider all modern religions to be people's interpretation of whomever or whatever God is. Flawed humans creating flawed religions and/or Gods. I am left somewhat amused, however, by the fact that Islamic people can sound as preachy as Christian, Jewish or any other religious people. I guess they aren't as different as some people think.

Curiouser and curiouser.[/color]

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[COLOR=Navy]If you ever read the Bible, cover to cover, and each of it's versions...King James, New International Version, and so on, Chabichou, you would understand that none of the text has ever been changed. Sure, the Bible is rewritten when it gets tranlated to another language.

[quote name='Chabichou']Many people start to follow Jesus' teachings. It's not like they converted or anything. They simply knew that God has sent them another prophet (or as Christians believe, his Son) down with a new book, which corrected the mistakes in the altered Torah.[/quote]

Jesus didn't bring a new book. He is the fulfillment that the whole Old Testiment was about...the coming of Christ, the Savior of the world. Plus, the New Testiment contains many books...not just one. They were written by God through inspiration and dreams to the authors...for example, Revelation.[/COLOR]

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[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I thought it would be interesting to start a topic based on the Islamic religion. However, the point of my thread is only to try to convince you that the Quran is the word of God, but not neccesarily that Islam is the "right religion".[/COLOR][/quote]

Ok, I really can't contradict anything that has been said, because, it is all based on faith. The argument, i beleave X and I don't beleave X work just as well as proof. But i would like to point out that you contradicted your self. How can something be the word of God yet not be the correct relegion? And it is ammusing how preacy the three middle , Ceastern relegions can get (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) , unlike Buddism, Daoism, Hinduism among others from the east.

Just my two and a half cents.

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Guest Alchemist
[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
The Quran fobid the maltreatment of women. It said to be kind to women, to treat them as human beings, and it gave women political, economical, and social rights as well. But the Arabs, as I have already said, treated women next to animals.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Um.. not to be hating but don't women still not have that much political o rsocial power? Because they still must be silent when men are around (i think that is correct but correct me if i am wrong) and also not show any part of their body or face. I have seen muslim women slapped for talking when it is something political going on and they tried to make a point.

Also what you are saying is pretty much one sided so to call it the word of god or allah is wrong. You should have caled it One of the words of god, because Torah and Bible are still considered the word of god. That is how i see it but keep in mind that i am saying this through an athiest point of view.

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None of these scriptures are the word of God. They're simply the words of nut-jobs who got high on drugs and wrote in a frenzy, thinking God was using them as His template to write with.

Heck, I could sit down today and decide I was going to write the next word of God book. I'm sure I could start my own religion based upon this 1,000-page word of God document. I'm sure people would fall for it and get meaning in their lives from it, and be happy because of it.

Think for yourself. Be your own individual. Don't let hoo-hah like this net you in and make you live such a lie of a life.

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[size=1][color=DimGray][b]Mitch, I don't[/b] think that nut-jobs high on drugs could have possibly wrote the bible.

Think about it for a second, most of these people didn't even know each other, especially the prophets (with the exceptions of the apostles) and yet they write of the same God with very little, and no serious, contradictions. It all seems like they knew each other and collaborated because it's bundled together in the same book. (think of a DVD movies box set containing horror movies, it doesn't necesarily mean they're all from the same director)

As for thee apostles, well, they turned an ran, abandoning their God as he was crucified. why would they then go out and be willing to be martyred for something they knew after this to be a lie? Or why would they decide to die for their drug-induced story?

Soemthing must have happened to these men, and I believe it.

One last thing. People of faith aren't brainwashed necessarily. I was brough up a catholic, and then, through research and free-will, changed my faith. No real reason to put that in other than to show you that I can make my own decisions, I guess.[/color][/size]

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[QUOTE=Mitch]
Heck, I could sit down today and decide I was going to write the next word of God book. I'm sure I could start my own religion based upon this 1,000-page word of God document. I'm sure people would fall for it and get meaning in their lives from it, and be happy because of it.
QUOTE]

heh, L.Ron Hubbard did just that, scientology, I wonder if in 1500 years people will be having similar discussions about that religion...

I'm agnostic not athiest, but I still have to wonder at the validity of something written by man :rolleyes: I think it's sad that these books written so long ago rule so many peoples lives. so much hate comes from them. granted there is beauty in them as well, but I don't think they are worth the hate that they generate.

edit just for clarification: I believe people have a right to believe however they choose, and I believe that if a persons faith is strong it can make them a better person. However, I strongly disagree with any hate or persecution towards others just because someone may believe something is "wrong". ie: being a witch or gay or not being that religion, or whatever. awful things like the inquisition, salem witch trials and the holocaust came about because of fear and hate. (current world affairs also come to mind)

this has been a very interesting thread, it's nice to hear about religion from different perspectives :)

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[quote name='Japan][COLOR=Navy']Jesus didn't bring a new book. He is the fulfillment that the whole Old Testiment was about...the coming of Christ, the Savior of the world.[/COLOR][/quote]

Not exactly. Many Jewish people (including me) do believe in a Messiah, but that it was Elijah who will bring it and not Jesus. I'm not saying you are wrong. Right and wrong are terms that can't be used assigned to very iffy religious factoids. I'm just saying that I could argue your point, though I don't want to get into a "Who's right?" discussion and stick with it being a more educational thread.

[QUOTE=]Here is his story: One day while he was up in the cave, an angel (Gabriel) came to him. Muhammad was completely terrified. No, angels do not look like beautiful human beings with wings and halos. All we know is this: They have wings, how many we're not sure, but Gabriel specifically has 300 pairs of wings. Angels are huge, and they are terrifying in their true form, at least in a human's point of view.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Juzzam/NGEAngels/adam1.jpg[/IMG]

Sorry, just had to do that! :laugh:

Anyway, reading this thread has been very interesting. It's taught me a bit about Islam and a lot of our members' faith without turning into a big debate like most religion-oriented topics around here do. With all of terrible stuff going on in Iraq and other places, its nice to know about the actual texts the terrorists are corrupting. 'Just makes them seem even worse. It's too bad most people don't know about the story of Mohammed because if they did, there would probably be a lot less discrimination.

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[SIZE=1]Mitch, just because you believe in a certain religion doesn't make you weak-willed, stupid, or dependent. Actually, I think it takes a certain degree of strength to have [I]faith[/I], and follow God, assuming that you're right.

Yes, everyone, the Bible was written by humans, but I do believe that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. That [B]doesn't[/B] mean they were all high and drugged up and in a trance. It only means that the author was human, and the Holy Spirit guided him. The author wrote by free will.

And technically, Jesus did fulfull all of the Old Testament prophecies. Like having a virgin birth, being a direct descendant of David, along with a whole bunch of other ones. I suppose Jews don't believe in Him partially because of all the politics that went with being a "Christian" back 2,000 years ago. But aside from that, I don't understand why they don't acknowledge Jesus as a person who performed these miracles, fulfilled prophecies, and died for us. Ahh well.

And Christians believe that John the Baptist was the manifestation of Elijah's spirit. They were both nazirites, and both were supposed to "prepare the way" for the Savior. John did that by the baptism of Jesus.[/SIZE]

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[QUOTE=Mitch]
Think for yourself. Be your own individual. Don't let hoo-hah like this net you in and make you live such a lie of a life.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, jackass. The person who has so little to do that he's taking the special time to demean on the basis of faith is telling us to not "live a lie"? If your useless, petty insults are all you can contribute to this conversation, then maybe you should go elsewhere.

I'm sure your nihilism provides you with a rich, fulfilling life, so go live it somewhere else.

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[quote name='Retribution][SIZE=1']And technically, Jesus did fulfull all of the Old Testament prophecies. Like having a virgin birth, being a direct descendant of David, along with a whole bunch of other ones. I suppose Jews don't believe in Him partially because of all the politics that went with being a "Christian" back 2,000 years ago. But aside from that, I don't understand why they don't acknowledge Jesus as a person who performed these miracles, fulfilled prophecies, and died for us. Ahh well.[/SIZE][/quote]

Elijah was a direct descendant of David. In Jewish teaching he is the one who is thought to bring The Messiah. I don't remember any prophecy about a virgin birth or anything of that sort (I don't claim to be the biggest expert on religion). Ultimately the reason I personally don't believe in Jesus is basically that I have trouble with the concept of him being the son of God, especially if we are all God's children in a sense. All those miracles were just God's doing being presented through Jesus, similar to the splitting of the Red Sea. People thinking Moses did the miracles at the Red Sea while forgetting it was really God's doing led to the Golden Calf disaster. Also the possibility of a perfect human raises some delemas about equality and such. I respect your thinking about the subject, and if it leads you to do good things then may God bless you. As for me, I'll just think my way and also do good things. In the end, the spiritual side of religion nobody will ever agree on (I personally have some doubts about even the Old Testament myself), but as long as we seek God (if that's the term you feel comfortable with) and do good deeds then everything will be fine in the end.

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[QUOTE]And then some of you will still assume that the Quran has been changed over time. There are very old copies of the Quran however, just a century after Muhammad's time, whose text is identical to the copies we use today.[/QUOTE]

That is still what? 100 years? That is 100 years from when it was originally written. Again, who is it to say that it couldn't have been changed? We have the one from 100 years after he wrote it being copied word for word.

[QUOTE]People would not have known any of these things back then.[/QUOTE]

People were pretty smart back then as well. It is quite possible that they knew that. Ancient Greeks (I belive it was them) managed to find the circumfrence of the Earth, and knew the world was. It is entirely pausible that they knew some of the stuff you mentioned.

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[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]The Arabs didn't know a thing about all the prophets that came after Isaac. They had no access to books or people who did know of these prophets. Muhammad hadn't travelled out of Arabia either.
[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]Well, it is proven that Muhammad was definetly a learned man. He (I think) traveled on a caravan across the desert from oasis to oasis. He picked up knowledge by doing this from other travelers, and also met his wife here. But that's all aside the point.

What I'm really trying to say, is that I thought the Muslims (and most Arabs) derived their religion from Ishmael, not Isaac. And Abraham gave Isaac the birth right. I also believe that 7 centuries before, Shem had the birthright and was blessed by God that "His descendants will have a great name." All in all, I thought Ishmael was the person whom Muslims derived their existance from, and he did not recieve Abraham's blessing/birth right. The birth right was given to Isaac, whose descendants were supposed to fulfill God's covenant with Abraham.

Basically, I thought [B]Ishmael = Muslims, Isaac = Jews[/B].[/SIZE]

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[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Well, obviously many people accused Muhammad of simply being very good with words.

However, the beauty of the Quran is only [B]one[/B] of the many pieces of evidence that proves it's the word of God. I also stated how Muhammad knew of historical facts that no one in his region would know simply because they have never heard it. The Arabs didn't know a thing about all the prophets that came after Isaac. They had no access to books or people who did know of these prophets. Muhammad hadn't travelled out of Arabia either.

In addition, what about all the references in the Quran to nature? There are many vivid and detailed discriptions of nature and the way things work, which all agree with modern science! Here are several examples:

[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]It doesn?t matter, Christians traveled the entire world over during that time spreading ideology, and Mohammad could have easily picked up the history from any number of places.

Take, for example the tale of Noah and the tale of Gilgamesh. Both are similar stories written at approximately the same time, yet the probability that the Earth was completely flooded during mankind?s (and I am not referring to the legendary Mick Foley) existence is pretty much nil.

It is cool that your unwavering faith has allowed you to interpret Mohammad?s words to mesh with modern science. However, what you are doing is no more relevant than a Christian sighting historical references that fit ?Revelations? or people believing Nostrodamos to be psychic.

In the end you cannot definitively prove the Quran is the word of God because, to do that, you would have to be able to prove that God exists.[/color]

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[size=1][QUOTE=Heaven's Cloud][/size][size=1][color=indigo]

Take, for example the tale of Noah and the tale of Gilgamesh. Both are similar stories written at approximately the same time, yet the probability that the Earth was completely flooded during mankind?s (and I am not referring to the legendary Mick Foley) existence is pretty much nil.

[/color][/size][size=1][/QUOTE][/size]

[size=1][color=DimGray][b]I tend[/b] to think of the siimilarities between the Gilgamesh epic and the Biblical flood as evidence that there may have been a worldwide flood. There is also an Australian aboriginal tale about a worldwide flood, both including the animals in a boat.

I suppose that these tales are of the same worldwide catastrophe, as told form diffrent perspectives.
[/color][/size]

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[SIZE=1]Maybe the entire world as we know it flooded back in Noah's time. When Noah lived, the entire world was maybe a one hundred mile radius from his home. So, is it at all possible, that Noah's "world" flooded? It seems [i]possible[/i]. And I'm not familiar with Gilgamesh, ... maybe there was a worldwide flood forreal. Is there evidence from other cultures than just them? Because if not, it's highly improbable.[/SIZE]

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