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DBZgirl88

Religious ideologies

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[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]

I find it odd how many people nowadays seem to be only choosing aspects of religion that appeal to them than the religion as a whole.

Why is it that some christians believe that the Bible is the word of God, yet at the same time don't believe in hell? The Bible states that evil-doers and infidels will go to hell doesn't it?

It just doesn't make sense.

What are your views on this?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]


You're right, it doesn't make sense. Polytheistic religions are different kettle of fish, but the type of religion we're more familiar with, the monotheistic ones, are supposed to be package deals. You either believes that a) the religion's particular definition of God is the real one b) any religious scriptures that the religion claims as theirs are the word of said God (contradictions notwithstanding), and c) that the officials of the religion speak for said God - or you don't. Some denominations of Christianity allow people to pick and choose between certain beliefs, but if the one you follow doesn't and you do pick and choose, you're not following your religion correctly. Period.

HOWEVER, in my personal opinion this picking and choosing that people are doing is a good thing. It's going to decrease the power of the actual religious institutions, which generally speaking are all corrupt.

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I grew up in a Roman Catholic household. But I'm sort of at an in between time in my life right now in terms of religion and spiritual beliefs. I really have no idea what to believe. I guess I'll just wait and see.

I suppose if I had to categorize myself though, I'd say I'm a Realist.

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[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]
[color=green]Just curious as to why an all powerful god would, when creating a book you claim has never been altered by human hands, place within that text something he permits but does not encourage.

If you're god, why settle for anything less than perfection in your laws?[/color][/QUOTE]

Well, the understanding here is that if a man has sex with more than one women, he should have to take financial and social responsibility for ALL his mates... in a way, the polygamy allowance in Islam actually serves to protect women from being used for sex and then disposed of

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[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Xander Harris']Well, the understanding here is that if a man has sex with more than one women, he should have to take financial and social responsibility for ALL his mates... in a way, the polygamy allowance in Islam actually serves to protect women from being used for sex and then disposed of[/quote]And to add to that, its not encouraged because when mad takes on four wives, he should treat them all equally, and very few men have the capability of doing so. It's also not encourage, because obviously this can cause jealosy between females.

[QUOTE=Boba Fett]Just curious as to why an all powerful god would, when creating a book you claim has never been altered by human hands, place within that text something he permits but does not encourage.

If you're god, why settle for anything less than perfection in your laws?[/QUOTE]Because there are times that call for things that he does not encourage. God permits divorce, but that is one of the most hated things he permits. He expects couples to try their best to make their marriage work, but sometimes,a divorce is just neccesary.

It is usually better for a man to only have one wife, but there are times that call for man to take on more wives. Such as after wartime when the male/female ratio is quite small. Or if the first wife cannot bear children, and the man really wants to have children, or if like Xander implied, instead of commiting adultery if one woman is not enough to please him (because men are more inclined to look at females other that his wife), he should be financially obligated to care for all those women.[/COLOR]

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[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Because there are times that call for things that he does not encourage. God permits divorce, but that is one of the most hated things he permits. He expects couples to try their best to make their marriage work, but sometimes,a divorce is just neccesary.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]So God would stand for something He doesn't encourage? Would God consider something He doesn't encourage sinful -- and if not, then why would He not encourage it? You have to see Boba's point with the whole "perfection in God's laws." If an almighty being created these laws, and they have not been altered, then why would they permit something that is not encouraged? Why not just permit it, and say "but you can't in these cases"?[/size]

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[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Retribution][size=1']So God would stand for something He doesn't encourage? Would God consider something He doesn't encourage sinful -- and if not, then why would He not encourage it? You have to see Boba's point with the whole "perfection in God's laws." If an almighty being created these laws, and they have not been altered, then why would they permit something that is not encouraged? Why not just permit it, and say "but you can't in these cases"?[/size][/quote]They are not discouraged because they are sinful. They are simply discouraged because the person in most cases would be better off not doing them.

If a person wants to divorce, they are permitted for any reason, even really dumb ones like your spouse not being attractive enough. I guess this is because God gives us some degree of freedom within his laws.

In the Islamic perspective, humans are not perfect, and God doesn't expect us to be. We all make mistakes. Even the prophets ? being human, made mistakes and sometimes even displeased God. Though compared to the rest of us, they have the best character.

Because we are not perfect, some laws simply have to general. Alcohol is forbidden. Just because some people can control themselves and not get drunk, God still forbids it for everyone. This is because alcohol being fobidden entirely is better that permitting it under certain conditions, because not everyone makes the right choice, and harm can still be done if people drink. It is better for the society as a whole for alcohol to be forbidden.

So back to divorce, it would be better for the society as a whole for it to permitted than for it to be permitted under certain situations, because humans would make mistakes when it should be implimented and people who really should have gotten a divorce might think they are not allowed to. Also, maybe people would be inclined to do more sinful things if they can't get a divorce.

For instance, a woman is unhappy with her husband, he isn't pleasing her enough. Se can't get a divorce because it's not allowed, and if she did, everyone would know. She might resort to adultery, which is a greater sin, but easier to coneal from the public.

See how it would be better for her to be allowed to divorce? Even if her reason is a little dumb?

One thing I should have pointed out is that in Islam, the laws work for the entire society, not just each individual. So that is why they are not "perfect" for any one individual. It simply does not work for them to be "perfect" for indiviuals because individuals and their actions can have direct effects on their society.[/COLOR]

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[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] Alcohol is forbidden.[/COLOR][/quote]
This reminds me, it is rediculous for a religion to make laws about things like food and activities. If you eat beef, or if you eat pork, your going straight to hell. Almost a laughable belief. Of course most of America is going to hell, because you ingested a holy combination of Nitrogen and Carbon. One of my friends won't play cards because her religion forbids gambling. Over a dollar or two? This is one of the many reasons I don't accept religion: I simply don't feel that I should have someone elses reality become my own. Like we even know (or understand if we do know) if god(s) exist or not.

Another thing: it is ludicrous to believe that everyone else is going to hell because they don't believe what you believe. If you think this, you are an idiot. There really are no two ways about it. To believe you and those close to you are the chosen ones...

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My religious beliefs are my own. For the most part, I take what makes since and go with it. This technically makes me Pagan and I happily accept the title since so many of my beliefs come from different Pagan Paths. I have no real god but I do follow Guan Yu who is sort of a Buddhist saint. If anyone is interested in hearing more about my beliefs, please feel free to ask me in PM or by e-mail but try to understand I do not have easy access to the internet so I may take a while to reply.

As for correcting someone on there religious beliefs based on the beliefs in question being more Muslim then Christian I believe it is stupid. Islam and Christianity are essentially the same religion based on different time periods and events with different ideas of how to worship. The Jewish religion also fits into Christianity and Islam but not as much as the other two go together. In other words I do not feel it matters what title a person gives there beliefs. It should be the beliefs themselves that matter rite?

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Well; Ask anyone that knows me and they will tell you that I am a serious Atheist and I dislike People who take Religous texts word for word, yet I also despise those which pick what they want with Religion. If they claim to follow a Religion then they should follow it entirely or drop the thing entirely.


Simple as that though some would be offended by what I think.One shouldn't be allowed to say that they believe in something yet only believe in a few parts of it, it is just not on.

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[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]First of all, this isn't meant to be a 'what is your relgion?' thread. But I thought i'd ask relgious OBers what shapes their beliefs.

My mother recently had a chat with her ESL teacher about religion. Her teacher claims that she is Chrisitan, but she told my mom that she didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God --she believed he was prophet. Since this was the Islamic perspective of Jesus, my mother further questioned her about Muhammad. Her teacher told her that she believed that Muhammad was also a prophet. My mother asked her, if that's the case, why isn't she a muslim?

Her teacher simply said that she disagrees with polygamy, which is permitted in Islam.

I find it odd how many people nowadays seem to be only choosing aspects of religion that appeal to them than the religion as a whole.

Why is it that some christians believe that the Bible is the word of God, yet at the same time don't believe in hell? The Bible states that evil-doers and infidels will go to hell doesn't it?

It just doesn't make sense.

What are your views on this?[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkOrange]I don?t really have any religious beliefs. The more I study and learn the more I see that religious texts are documents written by people and I?ve learned that just because something is written doesn?t mean that it?s true.

The fact that people are only choosing certain aspects of their religion could be that parts of them don?t feel right to them. I am only 13 but my Mom belongs to the Mormon Church. Until recently I was required to believe and had no choice but to attend church with her.

But on some levels I completely disagree with the beliefs. For example the main leaders of the church are all men. I disagree since they tell you that the church is an equal opportunity place for all the members, but if that were true then the women could hold leadership positions as well.

It took a while but my Mom finally agreed that I had the right to decide for myself. So on some level I think people have the right to question their religion. So only following part of a religion makes perfect sense to me.

Many religions are claiming that their religion is the only true path, but can any of them really prove it? I think that totally believing in just one religion is limiting what you can learn as it is more likely that there is truth in all of them. At least that?s what I think. ^_^[/COLOR]

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[QUOTE=Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkOrange]I don?t really have any religious beliefs. The more I study and learn the more I see that religious texts are documents written by people and I?ve learned that just because something is written doesn?t mean that it?s true.

The fact that people are only choosing certain aspects of their religion could be that parts of them don?t feel right to them. I am only 13 but my Mom belongs to the Mormon Church. Until recently I was required to believe and had no choice but to attend church with her.

But on some levels I completely disagree with the beliefs. For example the main leaders of the church are all men. I disagree since they tell you that the church is an equal opportunity place for all the members, but if that were true then the women could hold leadership positions as well.

It took a while but my Mom finally agreed that I had the right to decide for myself. So on some level I think people have the right to question their religion. So only following part of a religion makes perfect sense to me.

Many religions are claiming that their religion is the only true path, but can any of them really prove it? I think that totally believing in just one religion is limiting what you can learn as it is more likely that there is truth in all of them. At least that?s what I think. ^_^[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=Indigo]I agree with Aaryanna in the sense that my beliefs are driven by not believing that any one religion is the whole truth. For me what doesn?t make sense is the idea that you have to believe everything a particular religion tells you. For me it isn?t a matter of only choosing aspects that appeal to me but rather I refuse to practice something that I do not believe in.

Take Aaryanna?s religion where only men hold the highest positions in the church. I live in the city where this religion?s headquarters is. And they really do preach that everyone is equal in their religion. But it?s an illusion since women cannot hold the same positions that men do.

It?s not an issue of equal rights but rather I feel that on some level it makes them hypocrites. And I do not feel comfortable following something that I feel is dishonest. Aaryanna also makes another valid point; just cause something is written does not mean it is true.

To me my beliefs are shaped by the freedom to keep searching for what is true instead of just finding one religion and totally embracing their teachings. [/COLOR]

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What I find funny is the fact that most christians think that if you question the belief then you don't really believe. It was that day that I cussed out my pastor and left the church. It's totally ridiculous that you can not question your faith to make it even stronger. I totally believe in the whole aspect of the fact that written works are human made. This is why I don't believe in the Bible. It's been re-written so many times. They had to revise it and all that jazz. Also the whole human made thing bothers me. I would totally believe in the Bible, if god came to me and said here this is the ultimate truth and this is how you should live your life, I probaly would. Only if this being could answer a series of questions that only god would know. It'll never happen, but it's nice to think about. Man-made works are what started the Bible and I bet sometime in the future that somehting else comes out and says it's the holy document. Whatever the case. It's a false hope if you can not question your beliefs openly.

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[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Morpheus']This reminds me, it is rediculous for a religion to make laws about things like food and activities. If you eat beef, or if you eat pork, your going straight to hell. Almost a laughable belief.[/quote]You go straight to hell? Morpheus, God is merciful you know, he wouldn't send you to hell for commiting one sin. In Islam, as long as you believe in the fundamentals of the religion, you have a chance to go to heaven. But you still have a chance to go to hell, if your sins outweigh your good deeds. But even if you do go to hell, there's still a chance to be forgivven and let out eventually.

I don't see why people don't have a problem with following man made laws of our governments, and have a problem with following our creator's laws. I know you're athiest Morpheus, so I guess that doesn't apply to you, but when you look at someone who believes their religion is the way of life that God has prescribed for them, why is it laughable if they obey his laws.

And you know what, as far as I've seen, all of God's laws are based on what is best for us. You all know, that alcohol is toxic. It'd a poison, and it impairs your thinking. Why is it illogical for God to tell us not to drink it?

Gambling causes much more harm than good, and is definitely not a noble way to earn money.

As for pork, God states that there is something wrong with that meat. It's unclean, and it has certain chemicals that are not good for us.

[quote name='Morpheus']Another thing: it is ludicrous to believe that everyone else is going to hell because they don't believe what you believe. If you think this, you are an idiot. There really are no two ways about it. To believe you and those close to you are the chosen ones...[/quote]I'm not sitting here saying anyone will go to hell morpheus. I don't even know whether I'm even going to heaven. But I will try my best to please God, to obey his laws, and to gain his mercy. And no, muslims don't believe they are "chosen ones". It is up to us to choose to obey God or not. "Islam" means submission to God. People who submit to God and follow the way of life he has prescribed for us is therefore a muslim.

I don't think it's logical to believe your way of life is the only way to get to heaven. Why would it be logical for me to believe that let's say, ancient egyptians can go to heaven? They didn't worship God. They worshipped, according to my beliefs, gods they made up themselves. That certainly doesn't gain God's pleasure. He says in the Qur'an, that he wants us to worship him, the one and only God.[/COLOR]

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[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I don't see why people don't have a problem with following man made laws of our governments, and have a problem with following our creator's laws.[/COLOR][/quote][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]
People do have a problem with following man made laws, otherwise we wouldn?t need jails or police to arrest people for breaking the law. For example, take speeding laws, people get tickets all the time for ignoring this law. They know they shouldn?t speed but they do anyway.[/COLOR][quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] I don't think it's logical to believe your way of life is the only way to get to heaven. Why would it be logical for me to believe that let's say, ancient Egyptians can go to heaven? They didn't worship God. They worshipped, according to my beliefs, gods they made up themselves. That certainly doesn't gain God's pleasure. He says in the Qur'an, that he wants us to worship him, the one and only God.[/COLOR][/quote][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]
How are the Egyptians any different? We claim they made up their own Gods, but how do we know that the God of any religion today wasn?t at one time made up? If people never question their religion then how will you ever know for sure? What little I have read indicates that many religions were formed because members refused to accept what they were being told and went in search of the truth. Did they find it? I don?t know. But I certainly think people have the right to refuse any aspect of a religion they do not agree with.[/COLOR]

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[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']As for pork, God states that there is something wrong with that meat. It's unclean, and it has certain chemicals that are not good for us.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]This law, for example, is completely obsolete. There's nothing wrong with pork, and the only reason God deemed it 'unclean' and 'unfit to eat' was because back when the religion was founded, there were serious sanitation problems, so cutting it out of the equation entire was a better idea. The same thing goes for Jewish circumcision, and a woman during her period being 'unclean' and 'unfit to go to the synagogue.'

Really, there's no chemicals that'll be harmful to you -- nothing less healthy than beef.[/size]

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[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue']How are the Egyptians any different? We claim they made up their own Gods, but how do we know that the God of any religion today wasn?t at one time made up? If people never question their religion then how will you ever know for sure? What little I have read indicates that many religions were formed because members refused to accept what they were being told and went in search of the truth. Did they find it? I don?t know. But I certainly think people have the right to refuse any aspect of a religion they do not agree with.[/COLOR][/quote]Aaaryanna, I was talking from my religious prespective. I believe in my religion, because I believe the Quran from a devine source, and since the Quran claims there is only one God, then I believe that. And I believe anything else the Quran says, because every single verse, in my opinion has divine qualities in it's prose. I don't question whether the Quran is right or wrong, because to me, it has proved itself to be from God.

Having said that, why would it be illogical [B]for me[/B] to follow the teachings of the Quran if I believe all of it is correct?
[QUOTE]Really, there's no chemicals that'll be harmful to you -- nothing less healthy than beef.[/QUOTE]If there were sanitation problems God would have commanded people back then to improve the situaion. Besides, why would pigs have been unsanitary but not goats?

God says pigs are impure, the way blood or urine is impure. And since recently people have found something in pigs that isn't good for us, I think this might be why.

Just because we don't always know why, it doesn't mean we should not follow. We will know the answer eventually, and it's good to try to figure out why.[/COLOR]

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[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Aaaryanna, I was talking from my religious prespective. I believe in my religion, because I believe the Quran from a devine source, and since the Quran claims there is only one God, then I believe that. And I believe anything else the Quran says, because every single verse, in my opinion has divine qualities in it's prose. I don't question whether the Quran is right or wrong, because to me, it has proved itself to be from God.

Having said that, why would it be illogical [B]for me[/B] to follow the teachings of the Quran if I believe all of it is correct?
[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Nothing wrong with following something if you believe it to be the truth. ^_^ Just as you have the right to completely believe in your religion others have the right to shape their beliefs without having to follow all aspects of their religion. It may not seem logical to you perhaps but it makes sense to me. ^_^[/COLOR][QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]If there were sanitation problems God would have commanded people back then to improve the situaion. Besides, why would pigs have been unsanitary but not goats?

God says pigs are impure, the way blood or urine is impure. And since recently people have found something in pigs that isn't good for us, I think this might be why.

Just because we don't always know why, it doesn't mean we should not follow. We will know the answer eventually, and it's good to try to figure out why.[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Improving the sanitation may not have been possible with the limits of technology back then. They didn?t understand the concept of bacteria and germs and how to make sure they are destroyed by fully cooking the meat. And they didn't have technology like refrigerators or freezers for proper storage.

My religion tells us that all insight comes from God so why would he bother to tell us that eating pigs is okay, if prepared properly, when we have the technical means to determine that ourselves? [/COLOR]

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On the pork issue, my interpretation of it was that God didn't want people eating pork for environmental reasons. Pigs are slightly higher on the food web than cows and goats, and it's more energy efficient to eat lower on the food web. So the laws of Kashrut were put into place for those reasons. Of course, at least in modern Judaism (I don't know about Islam), the only commandments that you absolutely must follow in the religion are the first 10 and the remaining 300-something commandments are at most good-but-optional and at least well-meaning-in-Bibical-times-but-irrelevant-in-modern-day-context (the laws of Kashrut falling under good-but-optional in my interpretation), so no one is going to go to Hell just because they eat pork (then again, I don't even believe in Hell and personally I'd be more concerned about the effects your actions will have on you in the course of this lifetime).

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