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Last night...My friend and his sister were spinning off the road and into a tree. The tree did not hit the car, but if it did, it would've surely killed him and his sis. This morning, the first thing I noticed was the cross necklace around his neck.. :animesmil Good thing they were headed to church when they had the wreck, ,in front of the principle's house I might add...and exrta good thing they were christians. Heh, I know they were praying extra hard that night! Even if they weren't Christians, I know I would've asked God to save me that night, LOL.

Yep, I do believe in Christ, God etc. I'm a christian alright, and I'm not changing!

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i am a christian and i have been since birth, but like queen asuka said, the mormons believe tht there is one god, one jesus and one holy ghost. three different beings and/or spirites. but, everyone is intitled to believe what they want to believe or think is best! but, mabey everyone should get a say at what they believe not "your wrong" and "thats not true!". everyone is entitled to believe what they want, no one has the right to tease or make comments about others beliefes. so, good thought bringing up this post, and say what you believe, but do not comment badly about what other people say or believe.

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[quote name='Nomura']:animesmil Good thing they were headed to church when they had the wreck, and exrta good thing they were christians.[/quote]
[size=1]Does that mean that God wouldn't've saved them had they been atheist? Sounds like your ideas of whom God would save are wrong to say the least, as Jesus loved everyone, no matter who they were. Whether I believe that Jesus actually saved them, however, is a totally different story.

[quote name='Starwind']I don't need the invisble man in the sky to tell me right from wrong and that killing and stealing are bad. If you need a book to tell you that those things are wrong, then you have some much deeper issues.[/quote]
I think you're missing the point of God. God isn't there to tell people not to kill people -- I think He's there to tell people what they should be doing. Sure, not murdering is great, but if you're not helping the homeless, the sick, the hungry, or the oppressed, then you're not doing much good either. I think you're totally right in thinking that you don't need God to tell you anything, but don't miss the positive message in your agnosticism.[/size]

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LOL, No Retri, that not what I mean. I mean, that good thing they were Christians. and pray to him....Cause....If someone saved my life...I'd be praying to them too (or for them). God saves many people. The smart ones, know that God helped 'em and get saved soon afterwards. No, I'm not saying that if you're not a christian you're dumb either....Darn. You got me to where I don't even know what I'm saying.

Okay...Maybe I should give you MY religion and what I do in the religion....a little more. I'm a christian, yeah. I go to church slmost every sunday and Wednesday. I don't pray as much as I should, and I'm pretty sorry that I don't, since I know I should.

I do listen to Rock, and small peices of rap, but that doesn't change my religion one bit, but I know someone will give a lecture on it.

I'm sorry that Jesus died for us....Us being the creatures of today's society, and us being pretty much living a life full of all kinds of things that God doesn't like.

I feel really bad for Goths(etc) Most are beaten or set into a world of sadness...and they turn to Satan. That makes their life even worse, I think.

Ah...I'm writing too much...

The point is, I'm a christian, I want others to be Christians too, and that I'm just sohappy that my friends went home last night safe and sound. :animesmil

One thing....I always wonder. If god knows what we are going to do, and it's usually something we shouldn't, why won't he stop us?

P.S. So, Retri, you're saying that he shouldn't listen to what God has to say? That it doesn't matter? Or are you saying the opposite? ...I'm soooo confused... :animesmil :animeswea

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[QUOTE=Nomura]Last night...My friend and his sister were spinning off the road and into a tree. The tree did not hit the car, but if it did, it would've surely killed him and his sis. This morning, the first thing I noticed was the cross necklace around his neck.. :animesmil Good thing they were headed to church when they had the wreck, ,in front of the principle's house I might add...and exrta good thing they were christians. Heh, I know they were praying extra hard that night! Even if they weren't Christians, I know I would've asked God to save me that night, LOL.

Yep, I do believe in Christ, God etc. I'm a christian alright, and I'm not changing![/QUOTE]



Not to sound mean or anything, but that just sounds like a series of events that could have happened to anyone in the wold, religious or not. The fact that he wore the necklace proves he believe, but its not a sign that it saved his life and the life of his sister. Nor the fact that their really religious, just a chain of events and they were able to escape it wwithout being harmed. its was just a 50/50 chance and they got the good 50.

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[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue][SIZE=1][FONT=Tahoma]Poor Nomura... getting ganged on by everyone.

Anywho, reading what everyone has said so far... I believe that miracles can happen to anyone, no matter what religion they are. God loves everyone. Period. He wants to show all of us this because He wants us all to believe in him. Sure, maybe we can't see him or we can't feel Him.. but that doesn't mean he's not real. Why do you think so many miracles have happened to many people? Some might say it's just coincidence or good luck, but sticking to what I believe in, I agree that God has helped everyone all the way.

Also, some might question, saying, "Then why do people go to Hell, even if they didn't do anything bad?" Okay, well... God is our Father... but He's also out Judge. Just because you haven't done anything bad... doesn't mean that you'll automatically go to Heaven. God's done everything for us... so why can't we pay Him back? In the Bible, in Revelation 20:11-15, it talks about the Book of Life. Basically, if your name isn't in there... then you don't go to heaven. Sorry that it's so serious, but that's the truth in my religion. People can't just sugar-coat it and says "everyone's going to heaven!" I mean, sure... that would be nice... but, everyone can't go into heaven.

Let's say that if you did something horrible that was against the Ten Commandments, and didn't even believe in God, then why should He allow you in His Paradise?? Now, if you ask for forgiveness with all your heart and ask Him to come into your life, then that's a different story....

All in all, everyone can't go into Heaven. Plain and simple. But hey, I could be wrong... there might not even be a God and we might just be reincarnated. But... until I see that with my own eyes and Death, I'm sticking with what I believe in all the way and continuing to talk to God.

BTW, totally happy for your friends, Nomura. It was an awesome miracle that God gave them. I'll be praying for them! n.n[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

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[QUOTE=Keyblade Wielder][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue][SIZE=1][FONT=Tahoma]Poor Nomura... getting ganged on by everyone.

Anywho, reading what everyone has said so far... I believe that miracles can happen to anyone, no matter what religion they are. God loves everyone. Period. He wants to show all of us this because He wants us all to believe in him. Sure, maybe we can't see him or we can't feel Him.. but that doesn't mean he's not real. Why do you think so many miracles have happened to many people? Some might say it's just coincidence or good luck, but sticking to what I believe in, I agree that God has helped everyone all the way.

Also, some might question, saying, "Then why do people go to Hell, even if they didn't do anything bad?" Okay, well... God is our Father... but He's also out Judge. Just because you haven't done anything bad... doesn't mean that you'll automatically go to Heaven. God's done everything for us... so why can't we pay Him back? In the Bible, in Revelation 20:11-15, it talks about the Book of Life. Basically, if your name isn't in there... then you don't go to heaven. Sorry that it's so serious, but that's the truth in my religion. People can't just sugar-coat it and says "everyone's going to heaven!" I mean, sure... that would be nice... but, everyone can't go into heaven.

Let's say that if you did something horrible that was against the Ten Commandments, and didn't even believe in God, then why should He allow you in His Paradise?? Now, if you ask for forgiveness with all your heart and ask Him to come into your life, then that's a different story....

All in all, everyone can't go into Heaven. Plain and simple. But hey, I could be wrong... there might not even be a God and we might just be reincarnated. But... until I see that with my own eyes and Death, I'm sticking with what I believe in all the way and continuing to talk to God.

BTW, totally happy for your friends, Nomura. It was an awesome miracle that God gave them. I'll be praying for them! n.n[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

God made the Jewish people suffer for countless years in the dessert after escaping Egypt, he wanted Moses to sacrifice his son to "test" his love for him (but stopped him later). Had a helping hand in the collapse of the Tower of Babble, and pretty much stood back as humanity waged war over his exsistance.....I'm startng to think that God hates everyone and not love them, its only superstition that people believe in luck and such, I highly doubt that God follows everyone around and grants the their good luck wishes.

About the heaven issue and only certain people getting in, what a prick. Those who believe should be able to get into the Holy Land without being turned away if their names are not in the list, thats just being descrimatory to his poeple. The "almighty God" needs to get over the Adam adn Eve thing and move on already

Everyone (exept newbornes) has broken the Ten Commandments by Now, there's no escape in it, we brake the rules without knowing it. Whether it be by not honoring our mothers and fathers to having premartial sex and simple lying, so on and so on. Even the Pope has broken the commandments before he became one with the curch. If he wont let you into heaven for believeing then why would he if we all have broken the commandments?

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[COLOR=Indigo]Actually I think it?s a bit arrogant to tell others that they are experiencing miracles since you believe in God or religion. It?s like saying even if you don?t believe we know better. Sorry I don?t swallow that kind of mindless devotion to something that has yet to be proven. The reason coincidence is more accurate is that why would a higher power save one person and then turn around and allow another one to die in an accident? That?s not a loving God but someone who saves you if he?s feeling like it at the moment.

It?s the same argument of you could go to Hell even if you have done nothing wrong, it?s called favoritism and the need to feel superior over your fellow man somehow. If an all powerful and wise God did exist there would be no reason to exclude people from Heaven just because they were not on a list or part of some secular religious group. He would know without such things whether or not you were worthy to be admitted to Heaven, he certainly wouldn?t need a list or book! And you can?t say it?s because you sinned since every culture has things that they consider a sin and yet another does not. It all comes down to social influences as to what is considered right and wrong.

If I were to walk around in shorts in a previous era I would have been considered a sinner for having part of my legs showing!

I may seem harsh, but I do not believe in God or any form of religion and what I have just explained is why. If God does exist then I am more inclined to believe that no single religious group holds the truth. Rather that each of them holds parts of the total picture. Please do not quote the Bible either. A document that has been repeatedly translated and printed by men cannot in all honesty be considered truth. Just study history and you will find that governments and religions have often altered texts to better suit their position in power. [/COLOR]

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[quote name='Mage17']God made the Jewish people suffer for countless years in the dessert after escaping Egypt, he wanted Moses to sacrifice his son to "test" his love for him (but stopped him later). Had a helping hand in the collapse of the Tower of Babble, and pretty much stood back as humanity waged war over his exsistance.....I'm startng to think that God hates everyone and not love them, its only superstition that people believe in luck and such, I highly doubt that God follows everyone around and grants the their good luck wishes.[/quote]

First of all, God made the Israelites suffer because they had broken one of the major laws that had been set up for them and that they promised they wouldn't break. And after those 40 years in the desert, the Israelites were rewarded by returning to the promised land. Even those 40 years in the desert weren't total suffering. They had mana afterall. Saying that God hated the Israelites is like saying a parent hates his or her grounded child. Discipline (admittedly extreme discipline) doesn't equal hate.

You're confusing Moses with Abraham. While I find the literal interpretation of that story to be troubling, you must understand that the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally word-for-word. My personal interpretation of that story is that Abraham himself was going crazy and was the only one forcing himself to sacrifice his son. The only thing God did in this story was stopping Abraham.

Again, the collapse of the Tower of Babel was God disciplining people. And the so-called "punishment" (people speaking different languages) isn't really a punishment anyway. It's people's fault that they errupt into war instead of just getting a translation dictionary.

God doesn't hate people. He may dislike what people do, but He doesn't hate anyone personally as far as my beliefs are concerned.

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It's because of god that we r living right now. If god wanted to, he could snap his finger, and kill us all. But one day, god will take us, and we will all die. But, we will be reborn as people again in another life. THats what i believe atleast.

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[quote name='EVA Unit 100']You're confusing Moses with Abraham. While I find the literal interpretation of that story to be troubling, you must understand that the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally word-for-word. My personal interpretation of that story is that Abraham himself was going crazy and was the only one forcing himself to sacrifice his son. The only thing God did in this story was stopping Abraham.[/quote][color=#4B0082]I think that, unless the Bible is obviously being metaphorical (don't [i]actually[/i] cut off your hand if you sin with it), it should be taken literally. In the case of Abraham and Isaac, the story reads very literally, so I think things happened exactly as described.

But there's a very simple explanation for God telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac: He was testing Abraham's faith. God wanted to see if he was willing to give up what was promised him (a son) in order to obey God. God never intended that Isaac be sacrificed, He just wanted to see if Abraham would do anything He said. Hence the reason God stopped Abraham short and provided a ram for the burnt offering instead; Abraham had passed the test.

If you look at Jesus' words in the New Testament, "Take up your cross and follow Me," He's saying the same thing. You have to be willing to give up control of your life (taking up your cross and dying to yourself) to be able to follow God's ways. And this was the same kind of test Abraham faced: Trust God with his son, or trust his own plans.

So that's how I look at the story.[/color]

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[color=dimgray] I'm inclined to agree with indifference about the changing of the bible and probably all of the religious texts. The saying that the victors write the history can be applied to any historical text. The bible has probably been altered by people throuhgout the years in order to suit the government or seat of power or whatever.

I can't say with 100% conviction as to whether or not I believe in any sort of god or spiritual power. The whole science vs. religion runs both ways. Science pushes religion to come up with new ideas, while religion pushes science to keep on discovering new 'breakthroughs' or anything else. I don't enjoy getting into heated debate over the faith vs. reason debates, but I suppose the 'rivalry' (for lack of a better word) pushes both scientific and religious advances.

If you ever want to find a worldy truth or idea, your best bet is to find any consistent rule or ideology that runs through every culture in the world. [/color]

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[quote name='Nomura']LOL, No Retri, that not what I mean. I mean, that good thing they were Christians. and pray to him....Cause....If someone saved my life...I'd be praying to them too (or for them). God saves many people. The smart ones, know that God helped 'em and get saved soon afterwards. No, I'm not saying that if you're not a christian you're dumb either....Darn. You got me to where I don't even know what I'm saying.[/quote]

That sounds like a "holier than thou" philosophy. It's luck. It's chance. They're LUCKY that they didn't hit the tree. Or maybe the car swerved at the right moment. Don't look into things so far to go on a religious whim. Seriously. And your god hasn't done too much for me. Don't give me that lame *** "you've got food and shelter so yes he has" ********. Yeah, I have been through some rough *** ****. Praying has never helped. I don't really pray. I pray once a day, and the only thing I say is "Goddess, please help all of the people suffering horribly in this world and bring world peace." Oh, so someone who is a Christian is smartER than me? Yeah, you never said non-christians are dumb, but you basically insinuated that you're all smarter than people like me who don't worship your god and don't believe that Jesus was anything more than a human who preached peace and used pacifism.

[quote=Nomura]Okay...Maybe I should give you MY religion and what I do in the religion....a little more. I'm a christian, yeah. I go to church slmost every sunday and Wednesday. I don't pray as much as I should, and I'm pretty sorry that I don't, since I know I should.

I do listen to Rock, and small peices of rap, but that doesn't change my religion one bit, but I know someone will give a lecture on it.

I'm sorry that Jesus died for us....Us being the creatures of today's society, and us being pretty much living a life full of all kinds of things that God doesn't like.[/quote]

Yay for you, you go to church. Why do you have to pray so much? Like I said, I say the same thing every day. That's it. And it's really only on weekdays, because we have a moment (more like 5 seconds) of silence in school after the Pledge.
What does your music have to do with your religion? That was a pointless damn statement. Seriously.
How do YOU know what god doesn't like, really? Have you ever met the guy/girl in person? Have you actually sat down and had a conversation with them (with god replying back and actually speaking to you)? No, the bible doesn't count as the "word of god." I'm talking about one-on-one talking with a deity, whether it's a phonecall, meeting in person, or something. I can probably guess your answer to that. No, you haven't. If you had, you'd be in a psyche ward.

[quote=Nomura]I feel really bad for Goths(etc) Most are beaten or set into a world of sadness...and they turn to Satan. That makes their life even worse, I think.

Ah...I'm writing too much... [/quote]

Oh, hell no! No, you did not! You are seriously a VERY stereotypical person. So, just because someone is goth, they worship Satan? Listen, not ALL goths are satanists. Not all satanists are goth. I know more pagan goths and more atheist goths than I do satanists. I know about two people who are satanists, and one of them is as preppy as can be. How do goths turn to Satan? Is it because they wear all black? Or because alot of them lke dark things like dragons and demons and pentacles? Huh?
Oh, so you think that it makes their life worse if they believe in something that your religion is against? Not all goths are sniveling brats who are gloomy all the time, you know. All of the ones that I know (all of the ones at my school, which is the majority of my school, and a few at some other schools) are perfectly content. Pitying someone because they don't worship who you worship or who don't practice the same religion as you is a pretty snobbish act. That is so snobby and stuck up. That is like thinking that you are better than them. Well, guess what, sweetie? [B][COLOR=Red][SIZE=4]YOU'RE NOT. SO GET OVER YOURSELF.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
You may think you're better, but you are not. You're very ignorant and stereotypican and stuck up. Just step off of your throne or pedestal or whatever you put yourself upon, take off the crown of victory, and wash your hands of yourself.

Yes, you are writing too much. Seriously.

[quote=Nomura]The point is, I'm a christian, I want others to be Christians too, and that I'm just sohappy that my friends went home last night safe and sound. :animesmil

One thing....I always wonder. If god knows what we are going to do, and it's usually something we shouldn't, why won't he stop us?[/QUOTE]

Uhm, again, yay for you. I don't want others to get sucked into christianity. I'd rather have my friends follow their own personal beliefs rather than join the world-wide chain of the Upper-Class People of God Who Are Better Than You Association.

If you're soooo christian, why don't you know the answer to that question?

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[quote name='Nomura']God saves many people. The smart ones, know that God helped 'em and get saved soon afterwards. [/quote]

[color=crimson]I am glad you are confident in your chosen spirituality, however, as all of us were blessed/[cursed?] with free will, nobody here is required to agree with you.

It is fortunate that they were not injured but I, myself, would not attribute it to any divine intervention. Individual humans are far too meaningless on the scale of things in my opinion.[/color]

[quote name='Nomura']I do listen to Rock, and small peices of rap, but that doesn't change my religion one bit, but I know someone will give a lecture on it.[/quote]

[color=crimson]If they lecture you about it, ignore them. I'm sure you are well enough aware of what you will allow yourself to listen to.[/color]

[quote name='Nomura']I'm sorry that Jesus died for us....Us being the creatures of today's society, and us being pretty much living a life full of all kinds of things that God doesn't like. [/quote]

[color=crimson]A truly wise parent is always content to see His children succeeding, even if they are taking paths contrary to what the parent intended.

I'm sure an all knowing, all seeing being could probably get over his own petty ego and pride to be able to see the things humanity has achieved thusfar in a slightly chaotic world.[/color]

[quote name='Nomura']I feel really bad for Goths(etc) Most are beaten or set into a world of sadness...and they turn to Satan. That makes their life even worse, I think.[/quote]

[color=crimson]That's.. somewhat stupid.[/color]

[quote name='renayiiq']Oh, so someone who is a Christian is smartER than me? [/quote]

[color=crimson]You are not really proving yourself to be the smarter person by going into a long tangent. Surely you realized that, yes?[/color]

[quote name='renayiiq'] No, the bible doesn't count as the "word of god." [/quote]

[color=crimson]In the religion she follows, it does. In your opinion, it doesn't.

So, from her point of view, yes. She has a limited understanding of God and his laws based on what was passed down.[/color]

[quote name='renayiiq']You are seriously a VERY stereotypical person.[/quote]

[color=crimson]That's..

Well, I mean. Not to be insulting but you aren't coming off as anything otherwise yourself.[/color]

[quote name='renayiiq']You're very ignorant and stereotypican and stuck up. Just step off of your throne or pedestal or whatever you put yourself upon, take off the crown of victory, and wash your hands of yourself[/quote]

[color=crimson]:animeswea Again, Nomura and yourself seem to have much in common.

Perhaps this thread about religion can avoid further pointless arguments between opinionated individuals and keep some sense of.. maturity/order/sense.

Failing that I'd love to see a free-for-all deathmatch.[/color]

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[COLOR=DarkOliveGreen]Before this continues I'd like to remind people of the original purpose of this thread:[quote name='Cutie_Gurl_1990']Okay, who here actually believes in god or jesus?[/quote]So far everyone's been very good at stating their opinion on this without derailing the thread with pointless bickering. But a few are taking this way to personal. If you can?t state your opinion without flaming someone else then please don?t post. Consider this a warning, as further flaming and bickering will result in the thread being locked.

[B]Back on topic:[/B] I do not believe in God, or rather I should say I have yet to see anything that would convince me that God actually exists. Most of my reasons are identical to what indifference has already said. I grew up in the Mormon religion and no matter how hard I tried I felt uncomfortable with it. Later I learned that a lot of what I had been taught were lies so I have since left and now do not belong to any religion.

I'm not really an atheist, as I am not convinced that God doesn't exist, I just don't see or feel anything that convinces me that he does. I suspect that the only way I will find out for sure is the day I die. There will either be a God and afterlife or their won't and nothing I do or say will change that fact. It might decide whether I go to Heaven or Hell, if they exist, but it won't determine if they are really there or not.

[/COLOR]

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I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I believe in God as he has been represented by his Prophets. My parents are not religious and neither is my sister. I wasn't born in any church and before I joined, I was an aetheist. Didn't believe in a God. I believed in Karma and doing good but no all powerful being. I had been to church groups, youth activities and scriptual study in Christian churches over my whole life but there was nothing there, no spirit, no feeling of anything more to life then this is it. You are born and you die.

My ex-girlfriend, girlfriend at the time, was the one that got me to think for myself and to ask questions about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. She had just come back from a Temple trip, and she had bought me a Book of Mormon. Inside the cover she had placed a letter where she had written her testimony of the gospel. This is what prompted me to find out. I received a feeling that I had to find out that somehow what she was saying was true but that can't be possible she believes in a God I've never seen any signs that point to an existance of a God! The big bang and evolution was good enough for me, also being a scientist helped in that area.

Her testimony really hit me so I had to find out for myself, I borrowed a Gospel Principles manual from a mutual friend of ours and proceeded to read it. Now this thing made sense to me, it explained the origin of the soul, how there were requirements to get into heaven not just believe in Jesus and you'll be saved, and most important that God created a Heaven and an Earth because he was our literal father. The love a father has for his son I could understand, a love a supreme glowing cloud of a being had for bits of mud he put together made no sense.

After that I started having meetings with the missionaries. Oh my ex didn't know anything about my investigating the church until this point. I knew pretty quickly which missionary was going to baptise me. Over the course of the meetings (they went pretty quickly since I knew alot of the answers already from the Gospel Principles) I was asked to go home and pray about the truth of the Book of Mormon. I had never prayed by myself before, the thought of it didn't even enter in my mind. So that night I knelt beside my bed and asked, I had never had such an out pouring of spirit and love before. The burning of the bosom it does really happen to some people. I still didn't know when I was to be baptised so I kept putting it off, even though I knew which church I was going to be baptised into, the existance of God, and who was going to Baptise me. The timing just wasn't set, and I knew why later.

On the 26th of October 2002 at 17 years of age, I went with some Christian friends to a rock concert in Brisbane (I say Christian friends because they were from a different church). I felt no spirit during this concert but then an evangelist from America gave a talk. He was very amusing, but I still felt no real spirit. At the end of his talk he asked, who is willing to stand up and be counted as Christian and a witness of God? It was at that point that the spirit just leapt into me. I was never one to be a part of the crowd, and I was shy. At that point I feel the burning desire and knowledge that God lived, that he was looking at me, that he loved me and that he wanted me to stand up and be counted. More importantly I wanted to stand up and be counted. So I turned to my two friends that had brought me to the concert and said "Are you coming with me or not?"

This was a Saturday night, the next day (Sunday) I went to the missionaries and organised the Saturday for my Baptism. I was baptised on the 2nd of November 2002, the missionary that I knew would baptise me moved into a new area on the Wednesday after. I was confirmed a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints on the 10th of November went through the Temple on the 19th and turned 18 on the 22nd.

I know that God and Jesus Christ are two seperate people that both love me. I have witnessed their love and seen their work in this world. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a place where we can try to be better people and perfect ourselves. Nobody in the church is perfect, nobody on Earth is perfect. May we all be better people tommorow then we were today. This I whole heartedly hope.

-Rezzard

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[FONT=Arial]Renayiiq, Nomura was only sharing a semi-personal experience that he had recently. I don't think you had any reason to dissect everything he said and tell him to shut up, and just because you don't agree with isn't a reason. Seems like you were the one on the soapbox.

I don't see why people get so offended when other people proclaim their faith, or lack thereof. Sure, others may not agree with it, but does it hurt anyone? I can understand offense and anger if a someone killed another's close friend or relative, saying that they did it for their religion. But that hasn't happened here, and it's not going to.

I stand by my beliefs. I know that evolution or the Big Bang could not have happened without a higher power (God) to make it. I don't believe in the Big Bang at all, because the Bible says that God created the world. I look outside and see a blue sky, some clouds, vibrantly green trees and grass, tiny animals and other squirrels and things. I could look in the mirror and see me on the outside, or look at another person and see how different we look. I've seen real human structures (the Bodies exhibit at Mosi) and all the complex systems that we're made up of. I don't understand how anyone could think that those things could just happen on their own.

And what's really ironic; science helped me come to this conclusion.

(I don't understand atheism or agnosticism either. It may be that I don't know enough about either, but if you don't believe in anything or think it's a big waste of time, then just say you have no religion. =P)

And one more thing - several years ago, my grandmother died, and her family gathered at her house. I was emotionally sick at this time, so I had to stay with my great aunt. She told us that once, she hurt her arm very badly and was going to have surgery on it. Her whole church was praying for her arm. When she woke up the morning of the surgery, the pain in her arm was gone, and when she went to the doctor, they decided to cancel the surgery because she didn't need it anymore. How's that for a miracle?

I don't believe that, if in need of medical attention, you should avoid it and immerse yourself in prayer instead. That wouldn't be very smart. But honestly, I'd say prayer would help the situation end in a way that could be favored greatly to an end with no prayer. I've never been in a situation like that myself, but I have a friend who badly hurt her ankle and had to have surgery for five hours. After she woke from the surgery, she was back to normal (except for her ankle, of course, I mean personality-wise) and left the hospital in three days. I think she's still on crutches, but hey - now she gets special treatment! =D
[/FONT]

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[quote name='DeathKnight][color=crimson']You are not really proving yourself to be the smarter person by going into a long tangent. Surely you realized that, yes?[/color][/quote]
[size=1]Perhaps if you had quoted her in context and in reply to Nomura's original post, things would've fallen more smoothly into place. Nomura did in fact insinuate that if you're smart, you recognize God. Furthermore, renayiiq didn't go into a long tangent -- she was replying directly to what she quoted. She seemed completely logical in that chunk of her post.

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]:animeswea Again, Nomura and yourself seem to have much in common.

Perhaps this thread about religion can avoid further pointless arguments between opinionated individuals and keep some sense of.. maturity/order/sense.

Failing that I'd love to see a free-for-all deathmatch.[/color][/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, your jab doesn't have any real connection. Renayiiq wasn't being stuck up or ignorant when she was defending the fact that all goths are not satanists. Sure, she might've been speaking from a pedestal with a 'holier-than-thou' attitude, but she wasn't being ignorant or stuck up. Personally, I was waiting for someone to have at Nomura for that line, but I didn't think that it would take this long to happen.

And by the way, I'd totally pwn your souls in a free-for-all deathmath. Ph34r r37r1.[/size]

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[quote name='Amelia][FONT=Arial'](I don't understand atheism or agnosticism either. It may be that I don't know enough about either, but if you don't believe in anything or think it's a big waste of time, then just say you have no religion. =P)[/FONT][/quote]

[color=crimson]Gross oversimplification:

Agnostics= Do not believe it is possible to prove or disprove/see/know about the existence of God[s] for various reasons.

Atheists= Do not believe in God[s].

Just, there is a diversity amongst Agnostics and Atheists. The only thing that really unifies them as one are the basic thoughts above- beyond that they can be vastly different.

Then there is nontheism which is kind of a blanket term for all of the above and more.

If you really wanted to know more about them you should study them since the above is more so you kind of know what's up.[/color]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Perhaps if you had quoted her in context and in reply to Nomura's original post, things would've fallen more smoothly into place.[/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]Perhaps if you'd shut the.. nah, just kidding. ;)

I was being honest. I didn't see much difference between the points and tones of Nomura and renayiiq. Both were tangents that were (a wee bit) blind and emotional [one in admiration for her faith, the other being a reaction of anger]. I meant to offend, but only to make a point.

Many pardons, I suppose. But, man, I thought you had my back! You fail me again, Retri. :( [/color]

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[color=#4B0082]*sighs* See, this is what I was afraid of when I first posted in this thread. Someone always feels the need to take someone's statement of belief as an attack on their own.

Just to put Nomura's statement into perspective, look at it this way: If you came to someone and told them the building you're both in is on fire, wouldn't you think them rather less than intelligent if they just told you, "Whatever, I'll be fine"? I'm sure you would leave the building as soon as possible and think them an idiot for needlessly suffering fiery death.

Okay, now consider that a Christian believes people are going to hell if they don't trust in Jesus to save them--that parallels the statement of the building being on fire. We try to tell people this, and obviously we get a lot responding with the same, "Whatever, I'll be fine." Now, to a Christian who believes wholeheartedly that people are going to hell unless they trust in Jesus, they're going to think people foolish for turning down an escape from that fiery death.

This is not to say that Christians call unbelievers outright stupid. (Or at least they shouldn't be.) But it's kind of impossible to fully believe that something is right while also thinking someone else is the model of intelligence when they believe something contrary. It just doesn't work. And if you think about it, whenever you say a Christian's beliefs are wrong, you're doing the very same thing. You have your beliefs, and if you're fully convinced that they're true, other people with contrary views must be wrong.

In conclusion: No one's attacking anyone's level of intelligence (well, maybe DeathKnight is :p), all of the views posted here are personal beliefs, no one is directly attacking your beliefs, and indirect contradictions of belief are unavoidable. So if anyone feels the need to tell someone else they're wrong, you should instead get off your high horse and keep your bickering to yourself. Like SunfallE said, this thread will have to be closed if it degenerates into that.[/color]

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[quote name='Retribution][size=1'] Sure, she might've been speaking from a pedestal with a 'holier-than-thou' attitude[/size][/quote]

Didn't mean to. I was just saying, they act like christians are better than everyone else, and by doing so and pitying people who aren't like them, they're putting theirself on a pedestal. I was just trying to tell them to get over theirself, because there's nothing special about it. So someone worships something. So what? I couldn't care less about who or what you worship, personally. You could worship Barbie for all I care. As long as you don't try to act like you're better than everyone else BECAUSE of what you believe in. I don't think I'm better just because of what I believe in. Who knows? Maybe "god" favors trees better. Maybe he/she prefers people who practice Vodun. Like I said, who knows? Not me. Not anyone. I'm just saying, no one really knows, so don't act like you do. Sure, you believe in someone who is supposedly an offspring of a deity, but that doesn't make your religion better than anyone else's. (I think they're all equal in a sense, but I stil prefer paganism -- it just suits me better--but it's still equal with every other religion -- just as much chance as being "wrong" or "right".)

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[COLOR=Indigo]I?ve been expecting this to happen. Seems like threads that deal with religion end up with members clashing. I suppose it?s because so many of us have very strong beliefs and opinions. :p Desbreko makes a very good point though, most people are just stating what they believe instead trying to say [I]you personally are wrong. [/I] Even if the way they stated it seems like a personal attack I don?t believe that it actually is.

I disagree with quite a few people in this thread, but I?d hardly expect them to change their views to match mine. I?d be horrified if I had to embrace Christian views against my will so I?m sure those of you who do believe would be equally horrified to have to embrace my beliefs since I don?t believe in God or secular religion.

It would actually be extremely counter productive for me to try to convince others to abandon their religion or belief in God just because I do not believe. I am studying to be a therapist and one of the things we are taught to tell patients is to use the network of support that they can get from their religion. It would take too long to explain, but for some people having that network makes a huge difference in their recovery. [/COLOR]

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I was born and raised a Catholic. However, when I say raised, I mean that I believed in God. We never really went to church, except for when my Grandparents were around.
However, I don't really believe in God, or I should say, I don't really know. I've been through enough crap in my life to come to the conclusion that if there is a God, he/she just isn't listening. Therefore, I'm agnostic, and that works just fine with me.
Not trying to echo Dogma, but we got it all wrong with organized religion. It doesn't matter what faith you belong to, it just matters that you have faith. I have faith in whatever higher powers may be out there. But I just think the whole religion thing is way overrated. People kill for their religions, people die for them, people suffer for them. Now what kind of God would allow that?
Me, I'll just keep living my all-too-short life, and when I die, I'm fine with decomposing and going back into the earth, just like any other living thing. Whatever happens after, I'll find out then.

" You're wrong about virtues of Christiany... You're wrong if you think there'll be a Judgement Day... You're wrong, Fighting Jihad. Your blind faith in God, Your religions are all flawed" NOFX- You're Wrong.

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no offense... But renayiiq can really bring some good come-backs! Wow....She got me where it hurts. :animesmil

Not a pedestal really...more like a recliner, but thats good too.

Stereotypes, huh? Don't believe in stereotypes. When I said Goth, I did in-fact mean the stereotype of Satanworshipers, but otherwise I'm Goth. Fave colour's black, my wardrobe is 3 quarters black...and my music....gives headaches to my elders (They're not used to the melodies I listen to) Because some music is Satanic or whatever the crap the holy-people say. It doesn't change me. Me the same either way :animesmil

Ahhh...but then you come off as me being stuck up, and my life being all dandy? Hmmm, then you obviously don't know me, now do ya...(flashbacks)

LOL, I can see I really have an army in this thread...K.W is about the only person that is standing behind me on this one...

OK, Sorry guys/girls if I offended anybody in this thread :animesmil

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[quote name='renayiiq']So someone worships something. So what? I couldn't care less about who or what you worship, personally. You could worship Barbie for all I care. [/quote]

I'm the same way, but what's interesting is that in Christianity (I'm not sure about other religions) is that it's against one of the Ten Commandments that you can't worship false idols (ie. anyone/thing else other than God our holy father yada yada yada).

Quite interesting to think hmm?

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