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vegeta rocker

Protests and Immigrants Oh My!

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So English isn't a universal language.
Be cultured.
Don't expect people to know how to speak 'American.'
The majority of people in the US may speak English, but some may have not learned it yet. When you live in a multicultural country it's good to have a second language.
Plus I'm sure it would show respect to those struggling with English, which is in fact a very hard language to learn!

Student visas and working visas are a wonderfull thing.
I have an aunt and uncle (and their kids) living in the states, on working visas. Or something like that, I'm not certain which, but they do have green cards. They give you the opportunity to live in and experience another country/culture, without giving up your own citizenship. Of course, my aunt and uncle will probably become Americans just so they can get insurance and whatnot when they retire. Thankfully my cousin says he will stay Canadian till the day he dies.

Personally, the US wouldn't be my first choice of places to go if I had a visa. Actually, it would probably be the last choice. Like in baseball, when your picking teams, and the kid who's the bully ends up getting picked last and doesn't understand why... I'd pick other places: Italy, Japan, Portugal, Prague, Greece, Spain, New Zealand...
Dont' get me wrong, I've met some pretty nice American's each time I cross the border. But the blatant nationalism would be way too much for me. Besides, with my views, I probably wouldn't make that many friends. But hey, with the 90 cent Loonie, at least I'd be able to do some good shopping down there.

A little off topic, but still in the realm of the discussion.

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[QUOTE=KatanaViolet]

Personally, the US wouldn't be my first choice of places to go if I had a visa. Actually, it would probably be the last choice. Like in baseball, when your picking teams, and the kid who's the bully ends up getting picked last and doesn't understand why... I'd pick other places: Italy, Japan, Portugal, Prague, Greece, Spain, New Zealand...
Dont' get me wrong, I've met some pretty nice American's each time I cross the border. But the blatant nationalism would be way too much for me. Besides, with my views, I probably wouldn't make that many friends. But hey, with the 90 cent Loonie, at least I'd be able to do some good shopping down there.

A little off topic, but still in the realm of the discussion.[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet][font=lucida handwriting]I have to say that I'm insulted by your bully metaphor. Yes our president is like the biggest idiot in the world and starting fights with everyone but that doesn't mean we're all like that.

I'm not a blatant nationalist as you've put it. I have friends who are from way outside the country, one of my cousin's husbands came here on a student visa from India and he happened to like it here (Well either way he at least cared enough about my cousin to stay here) I think it's pretty narrow to base an entire country on the opinions of a few people. The majorityy of us embrace our heritage and the fact that this country is built on immigrants. But most of us descended from legal immigrants or people with work or student visas who came to this country and decided to pursue green cards.

I have to say I'm really on the fence about the whole immigrant issue. I mean I'm an unskilled laborer who is having enough trouble trying to find work without the whole immigration issue. But on the other hand I think if they went through all that to get to America let them at least have a go at being here.

Now on the subject of language. I think that schools in the United States don't teach a second language until way too late in the child's life. I think that learning at least a secon language is essential to getting along in the world. This applies to naturalized citizens as well as immigrants. I think that it's only right that if you move to the country you should learn the language and the customs. It's the polite thing to do.[/color][/font]

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[COLOR=RoyalBlue]The one thing I know about illegal immigration is that it?s a serious problem that needs to be stopped. Whether it?s by making them legal or by deporting them back to the country they came from. Honestly, I think it needs a combination of the two.

There are plenty of hard working immigrants who primarily come just to get a better life and to escape poverty, but there are also those who come for more sinister reasons such as crime, drugs and making money by smuggling families into America.

The main problem I have with just making all of them legal is it is ignoring the reality that there are illegal immigrants who by virtue of various crimes do not deserve to be given citizenship just because they happen to be an illegal immigrant.

The biggest problem I have with allowing it in the first place is that illegal immigration has done quite a bit of harm to the regular citizen. It?s not a simple case of they are just here to escape poverty. It doesn?t change the fact that to stay in America they have taken to breaking the law to do so.

For example, millions of illegal workers need a Social Security number and they usually just borrow one. Most people don?t even know that they are sharing their identity with an immigrant since there usually isn?t a way to find out. Social Security won?t tell you if someone else is using your SSN. It?s not revealed in personal credit reports either. If somebody uses your number to get a credit card or car loan, the nation?s credit bureaus create a new credit file instead of alerting you to the misuse. The way people find out is when something goes wrong, like unpaid taxes or unpaid bills. At that point debt collectors often track down the original SSN holder.

There are other problems as well, if you end up unemployed, you will find that when you try to get unemployment you will be denied since records will show that you have a job in another state. And it?s not easy to prove. And then there is the problem with medial costs to American citizens and Educational and the Welfare costs. The list goes on.

I am in favor of immigration reform, but most definitely not in favor of just making everyone already here legal. Sure there are those that do deserve citizenship, but why should those who have been hurt by them coming here just suck it up so to speak? We don?t reward citizens who steal others identity or lie to get welfare so why should it be any different just because they aren?t a citizen?
[/COLOR]

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[QUOTE]Is something right simply because it is the law? In Nazi Germany, it was illegal to help Jews escape persecution. By your logic, you should be punished for breaking that law. In any event, it wouldn't surprise me if our government were flying people back down every day, but those are tax-dollars wasted on a relatively pointless activity. Instead of blowing those thousands/millions on jet fuel, the jet itself, pilots, etc., you could have tried to help out the US of A.[/QUOTE]

I never said what was right or wrong when it came to the law, but thieves, murderers, and rapists break the law and I don't see you wanting to grant them amnesty. If the law isn't up to snuff morally, socially, etc. change it. It's happened before. I'm acknowledging here and now that sometimes it takes an illegal action or two to get the law noticed and changed like with Rosa Parks (which is why many people don't want her arrest pardoned), but most Civil Rights activists tried to follow the law to get the changes they wanted. Here, illegal immigrants may be protesting peacefully, but they very fact that they're here is breaking the law.

[QUOTE]America lets in some terribly low number of people per-year, and the lettuce farmer isn't going to be at the top of that long, long list waiting to get in. Because we have quotas, people are driven to illegally immigrate to here. I mean, if you were starving, would you like to stick around for 20 more years to come here legally? I think not. This is why it is essential that we increase the number of allowed immigrants per-year. I honestly don't think much else will change things.[/QUOTE]

It's not America's responsibility to let every single person into the country as a citizen. A country and its citizens have the right to decide their laws, not the people illegally there, and are therefore allowed to decide which and how many immigrants get in each year. If you don't like it, call your Congressperson and ask them to change it, don't just sit here and say "we should" without doing anything. If I was starving, I would go somewhere else, plain and simple. There are other countries besides the United States they can go to that aren't so polarized on this issue, and many are closer depending on the location in Mexico.

[QUOTE]Last I checked, the welfare state was on welfare because they either couldn't or didn't want to take the jobs that immigrants are taking. Talk to the welfare state, man. If they start moving towards wanting to work, then they won't need to be on welfare ... do you see where I'm going here? Immigrants do take the jobs no one else wants -- who wants to pick tomatos and lettuce all day, everyday? Perhaps meat packaging and processing is more up your alley? I think not. Immigrants make up a huge percentage of our agricultural business in America.[/QUOTE]

Many people are on welfare because its a vicious cycle that makes it hard to rise up above it. With some welfare reform, this could work. Even though there are people manipulating the welfare system, there are illegal immigrants who aren't exactally here for altruistic purposes or to escape persecution.

[QUOTE]You're right, however our nation was founded on persecuted Europeans. Reading the Constitution would reveal this to anyone -- that people come here to escape persecution and poverty for a new life. Furthermore, I don't see you yelling at all those immigrants that hopped over during the Great Potato Famine. Yeah, they came legally -- we also didn't have quota laws back then. See my point? We lessen quota laws, we can have legal immigrants.[/QUOTE]

That's right, they came over legally, and therefore did not break the law. If I'm remembering my American history correctly, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, we didn't have laws about speeding or drinking and driving in the 1840s, but today it's relevant, so there are laws. If you look at the Founding Fathers, you would see they were hardly economically disadvantaged, quite the opposite actually, and before them many people did come for economic reasons, but weren't exactally dirt poor themselves. While America was built on immigrants, it wasn't built on some poverty-stricken immigrants (look at how much it took to get over here) trying to escape some tyrannical dictator.

There are other countries besides the US where immigrants can travel to, many with more lax immigration laws. I'm not by any means saying we should turn down refugees or those seeking asylum, but since that isn't really the case and these people are breaking the law, I think they should be punished, whether that means going to jail, going back home, or whatever. We shouldn't reward people for breaking the law.

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when i look out on all of these so called "demonstations" and "protests" i fell yet another empty black hole open up in my stomache.

yes, i am urked by people who demand money, welfare, and what not from a government that they have (for teh most part) done nothing for. very very few, if any at all have paid taxes. most havent contributed a single dime to our economy, with the exception of theyre actuall jobs.

Im urked that people not of this land want us to change for them. like those other guys said; if emmigrate go to Russia or where ever, are they all supposed to learn english. HEck no, i have to go though the massive greulling procces of learning russian.

If we can fix our immaigration problems, and cut the illigal immigration, then that poor starving family in Mexico won't have to wait 20 years to become citizens. our government wont be so preoccupied with fighting illigels.

But you know the one thing that has totally urked me the most, the fact that these people want to become citizens SO SO BAD in the USA, they want help from the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT; and yet, what are they doing as they march around the streets demanding what they havent earned? They are waving the flag of the very nation they are trying to leave.

i do belive that it was Theodore Rosevelt who said something to the effect of:
In America, there is room for but one language, and taht language is english. And in America there is room for but one flag, and taht is the American flag. When you come into this nation and adopt it as your home, you adopt its flag and its language along with it.


PS i know thi stuff isnt really all that organized, but oh well.

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I think alot of the protesters went about it the wrong way. You've got to remember who wants to see this bill passed. We're talking about these massivly patriotic redneck types and you have these immigrants waving Mexican flags and singing the star spangled banner in spanish. Listen, there's nothing wrong with having pride in you heritage, but if you want to get these people to let you stay here, you've gotta look like the biggest damn group of American patriots there has ever been.

I don't know how many of you heard about this, but who heard about the protest on monday that failed, because 3000 people turned out and every singel one was and illegal, and was arrested at the protest.

Like I said, it was a good idea that was largely poorly executed. That's my first complaint.

Number two is, if you so deperatly need money, then what the hell are you cutting your sub minimum wage job for. If you need money that bad, your *** needs to be at work. Not protesting. You need to be earning money to feed your starving family.

All in all, I know that most of the work in america is done by illegals, that's fine, I can deal with that. I'm not into the whole "There taking American jobs" crap. Yeah like any of these clowns wants to sell oranges out of a paper bag. Bottom line, If your an illegal, fine. But since your an illegal who doesn't have to pay taxes, then you don't get to vote, you don't get social security, you don't get medicare, and you don't get to use public sevices. It's a little something called paying in. If you don't pay, you don't play.

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[SIZE=1]I think some people allready mentioned the issue with the American national anthem being sung in Spanish.
But I was watching The Daily Show with Jon Stewart and they were talking about it, and I had a thought.
I don't really see what the problem is with , at the least the [I]legal[/I] immigrants should have the right to do it.
Canada has a English and French version of the national anthem:
English:

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee

There is also a second verse that most Canadians don't even know about:

O Canada! Where pine and maple grow
Great prairies swell and lordly rivers flow
How beauteous that wonderland
From sea to sea to see!
Thou land of hope for all who toil
Who stand on guard for thee!
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

French (just the main verse):
Ô Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux.
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix.
Ton histoire est une épopée,
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.

Apparently one of the versions of the French anthem is translated completely differently than the English one, just as the Spanish version of the US national anthem. But the way I see it, aren't French Canadians still Canadians, and Mexican Americans still Americans?
I don't see what harm comes from them expressing their love for the country they call their home.

One argument that I can point out though, is that if every immigrant sang the national anthem (especially in Canada and places in the US) in their native language, it'd sound like alot of jibberish![/SIZE]

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[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=KatanaViolet][SIZE=1]I think some people allready mentioned the issue with the American national anthem being sung in Spanish.
But I was watching The Daily Show with Jon Stewart and they were talking about it, and I had a thought.
I don't really see what the problem is with , at the least the [I]legal[/I] immigrants should have the right to do it.
Canada has a English and French version of the national anthem:
English:

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee

There is also a second verse that most Canadians don't even know about:

O Canada! Where pine and maple grow
Great prairies swell and lordly rivers flow
How beauteous that wonderland
From sea to sea to see!
Thou land of hope for all who toil
Who stand on guard for thee!
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

French (just the main verse):
Ô Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux.
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix.
Ton histoire est une épopée,
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.

Apparently one of the versions of the French anthem is translated completely differently than the English one, just as the Spanish version of the US national anthem. But the way I see it, aren't French Canadians still Canadians, and Mexican Americans still Americans?
I don't see what harm comes from them expressing their love for the country they call their home.

One argument that I can point out though, is that if every immigrant sang the national anthem (especially in Canada and places in the US) in their native language, it'd sound like alot of jibberish![/SIZE][/QUOTE]Well, it is important to realize that Canada has two main languages. Although the majority of the population speaks english, french isn't just seen as a secondary language, it is just as important as the english. People speak english as well as french in parliamrent. Is spanish just a secondary language in the U.S, or would you say it is as important as french is in Canada.

Anyway, I believe the french version of ther national anthem came first.

As for the issue of immigration, I would have to agree with SunFallE.[/COLOR]

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It has nothing to do with being right or wrong Katana, it has to do with efficiency. Like I mentioned before, this initiative to get rid of them is done by these stupid, redneck, super patriots and them singing in spanish and waving Mexican flags is only hindering there cause. If they want to gain some leverage, then trying to hurt the economy will be a fruitless effort. If these guys were that up on the economy, then they wouldn't have re elected Bush.

No, instead they need to be showing some grandious patriotisism. They need to look the most American American's, as stupid as that may sound.

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The only thing this protest accomplished for sure was making them seem anit american.
The whole issue of Vincent Fox legalizing drugs isn't helping either, his dumbass idea couldn't have come at a worse time for immigrants. Though he has gone back on it and will not sign the bill until it is revised.

The Gringo Boycott is ridiculous too; if you haven't heard it's urging immigrants not to eat American fod like Mcdonalds and the such. Wow, this is sooooo stupid i just want to get up front at a protest and yell:

You are ILLEGAL, you cannot protest for rights if you have not earned them!

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I'm totally prepared to be pounced on for this, but if they risked life and limb to cross the borders, I would say they earned it in a sense.
And after they are allready there, they can't be kicked out right, so why don't they just apply for the visa or green card or whatever it is they need to become citizens.
Then that way even if it was illegal at first, they still earned the right to call America their home.

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[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][QUOTE=KatanaViolet]I'm totally prepared to be pounced on for this, but if they risked life and limb to cross the borders, I would say they earned it in a sense.
And after they are allready there, they can't be kicked out right, so why don't they just apply for the visa or green card or whatever it is they need to become citizens.
Then that way even if it was illegal at first, they still earned the right to call America their home.[/QUOTE]So if I break into a bank does that mean I have the right to the money inside? Just because they risked life and limb to do something illegal does not mean they earned it. That reasoning is very illogical if you think about it. If we follow that line of thought then we have to reward all criminals who are successful.

And just because they are here doesn?t mean they can?t be kicked out.

?Last year, the government had a banner year in kicking out illegal immigrants. By spending billions of dollars on apprehension, detention, and legal processing, by devoting millions of staff hours to the effort, and by pushing through get-tough policy changes, the feds managed to deport a record 200,000 foreigners.?

I got that from here:[URL=http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0406/041406nj2.htm][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][B]Clickith![/B][/COLOR][/URL] If you want to read the rest.

I agree with SunfallE in that there are immigrants who do not deserve to get citizenship just because they happen to be an illegal immigrant. Some are honest and just want a better living and others are not. So I'm against just letting all of them become legal. We need to reform the system to help those who deserve citizenship get it and to deport those who do not deserve it.[/COLOR]

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I live in Arizona, which is were all this is happeneing. The whole not buying anything didnt change anything. Only mexican stores closed, and only Mexicans shop there. So they hurt themselves. Only mexican folk shop at the store because anyone else would get shot shopping there.

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[size=1]It's logistically impossible to deport all of the illegal immigrants.

So you have 12 million illegal immigrants, let's say about 6 million children whom where born here and therefore are legal American citizens. Will we deport the x-million parents and leave 6 million orphans for our federal government to deal with? Of course not -- we have not the funds or the means to care for 6 million children. Will we deport them all? Of course not -- it's a horrid violation of the civil liberties of the legal citizens (the children born here).

Deporting isn't going to work. We need a different way, and I'm all ears if you can offer me one.[/size]

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[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]It's logistically impossible to deport all of the illegal immigrants.

So you have 12 million illegal immigrants, let's say about 6 million children whom where born here and therefore are legal American citizens. Will we deport the x-million parents and leave 6 million orphans for our federal government to deal with? Of course not -- we have not the funds or the means to care for 6 million children. Will we deport them all? Of course not -- it's a horrid violation of the civil liberties of the legal citizens (the children born here).[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=#9944cc][font=lucida handwriting]I may be getting this wrong, but I think as soon as you either 1. have a kid over here or 2.) Marry a legal US citizen you can stay.

Actually I know I'm right on the second one. The first one... kind of hazy.[/color][/font]

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[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=#9944cc][font=lucida handwriting]I may be getting this wrong, but I think as soon as you either 1. have a kid over here or 2.) Marry a legal US citizen you can stay.[/color'][/font][/quote]
[size=1]Yes, I'm certain if you marry a legal citizen, you're good to go. However, I have never heard of the law that if you have a child here you become a citizen. Either way, there are some folks who still want to deport everyone who hopped the border regardless of their current situation.

I'm just saying deportation is logistically impossible assuming parents aren't naturalized.[/size]

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[QUOTE=Athena][size=1]'nough said.

I'm in total agreement with him and Doukeshi. I'm not racist, I'm not prejudice, but how can anyone expect to be given rights when they are [b]not[/b] a legal citizen? It's irritating to go to an [b]American[/b] restaurant and not [b]one[/b] worker can speak English.

If you want American freedom, if you want that "American Dream", by all means have it. But don't take advantage, don't f**king abuse the system. There are ways to get American citizenship. It takes time, but that's how it works--and it'd be legal.[/size][/QUOTE]

This I for sure have to agree with, people not being able to speak English. The way I view it is, if you don?t speak our language and you cant legally be here then leave, and to answer the question.

I don?t think the strike will do anything, it will probably just make the bill's pass. I don?t mind immigrants in fact I have friends that are Mexicans as long as there [COLOR=Red]LEGAL[/COLOR] I don?t care, our entire country was made of immigrants from England.

Also illegal immigrants I believe are a big cause of unemployment, legal citizens have a harder time finding work because illegal immigrants are willing to work for lower wages as long as they get to stay here.

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[QUOTE=Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]So if I break into a bank does that mean I have the right to the money inside? Just because they risked life and limb to do something illegal does not mean they earned it. That reasoning is very illogical if you think about it. If we follow that line of thought then we have to reward all criminals who are successful.

And just because they are here doesn?t mean they can?t be kicked out.

?Last year, the government had a banner year in kicking out illegal immigrants. By spending billions of dollars on apprehension, detention, and legal processing, by devoting millions of staff hours to the effort, and by pushing through get-tough policy changes, the feds managed to deport a record 200,000 foreigners.?

I got that from here:[URL=http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0406/041406nj2.htm][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][B]Clickith![/B][/COLOR][/URL] If you want to read the rest.

I agree with SunfallE in that there are immigrants who do not deserve to get citizenship just because they happen to be an illegal immigrant. Some are honest and just want a better living and others are not. So I'm against just letting all of them become legal. We need to reform the system to help those who deserve citizenship get it and to deport those who do not deserve it.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Well if you put it that way, then yea you are right.
But I don't consider either of those illegal activities to be related, except for the fact that they are illegal.
I really don't see how deportation will solve all the immigration problems. I don't see how it would stop people from trying to get in.
I see your points, and I don't think they are wrong, but I think that those major reform changes should benefit everyone.

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