Report Affirmative Action in General Discussion Posted May 5, 2006 [QUOTE]I'm sorry your blind to the socioeconomic cycle. It is much, much harder for a minority to rise up to the level of most whites, and I'm saying they should have help to get there, as they'd have to work harder just to be on the same playing field. It's possible for minorities to escape the life they were born into, but it's highly improbable, and the government should be there to help the people who are trying to get out of the ditch. I honestly don't see what's so wrong about this except for your whole "But it'd make them feel bad!" argument. Very few minorities feel as if their pride has been hurt when they get a job due to AA.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I'm blind to the same cycle both my parents rose from? Right. Anyway, it's easier than ever before for people to be insured of job security and equal opportunities et al because of things like the EEOC and the Fourteenth Amendment. It's not the responsibility of the government to raise every single person from poverty to the middle class. People have to take their own initiative. You've been given examples of how that has worked for people on this very board, showing it is more than possible for more than just former world's richest man Andrew Carnegie. Even if people only had a fraction of his success, they would be out of poverty. I never said it would be easy, that's why I used the term "hard work," not "equal work." It almost sounds like you're discriminating against non-beneficiaries of Affirmative Action. If two people are of equal merit academically, then that's where extracirricular activities come in. If the two people are not of equal academic merit, and they're both trying to get into the same academic institution, the person with the higher grades and test scores should get in, despite race. Even if its the difference between and 3.7 and a 3.9, the 3.9 person should get in. If you want to reject the academically superior candidate for an academic institution just because the one with lower grades is black, that's reverse discrimination. [QUOTE]I understood what he said. I also don't honestly believe that you can do anything you set your mind to. Humans are finite beings with limitation, and unfortunately, bias still holds minorities down from achieving as much as a white man. This is the simple truth. I'm also saying that when you write off minorities as not trying hard enough, you're being completely foolish and blind to the factors that keep them chained to the lives they lead. Not everyone can become an Andrew Carnegie -- he was an isolated case in the sea of millions.[/QUOTE] Setting your mind to do something and actually putting forth the effort to accomplish it are two dinstinct, yet not exclusive, things. Factors? Sakurasuka and I have already told you how minorities can rise above those factors and a young age, escape the cycle if you will. You're writing off minorities as if minorities can't help themselves and live in a country that actively persecutes them. Maybe you aren't thinking about the United States of America. [QUOTE]This is how it should be? That some people are less fortunate than others and are forced to work much harder just to get to the starting line of success? It's the way it should be when an "trashy" child is born? I guess I'm mostly objecting to your diction here. You're right -- we should all be working harder to become better, and these are the people I'd like to help. If they're making the conscious effort to become better and rise out of poverty, I want to help them through the glass ceiling.[/QUOTE] Yes, that is how it should be. People should work to better their living conditions despite what they were born into. Not doing anything to better yourself is a decision that you have to live with the consequences of. If they're working hard, they won't need Affirmative Action because they'll have the same skill sets as every other qualified person applying for that particular job. Knocking out some equally qualified person because you're a member of a protected class is horrible and just basing a decision based on something other than merit. It's like making one form of discrimination illegal so another one can be legal, and that just seems moronic. [QUOTE]A public school in the area got one million dollars from none other than Michael Jordan. This particular school has some of the lowest scores in the area. The one million dollars did nothing to change things. Sure, it helped, but throwing money to a school and doing nothing else isn't helping anyone. We can throw money at impoverished countries in Africa, and we have been doing that for decades. However, there is no improvement in standard of living over there. It's the exact same dynamic. I agree that teachers should be paid more, and that offering increased salary would help, and that newer learning materials would help too, but the first thing you must change is the minds of the students. If they still don't care, and now they go to a ritzy school, nothing willl change. AA is giving people a shot at things they thought they'd never have, not making them slack off. No black person I know is slacking off because they know they can make it into colllege on AA. If anything, AA is motivating the students who are already academically-oriented to keep going, and that's what I want it to do. I don't want it giving some 2.3 GPA kid a Harvard acceptance letter just because he's black. I want a 3.7 GPA kid getting that benefit. I know I'm working my *** off even though AA will help me. I could get into Princeton without it, and I'm not slacking off because of it.[/QUOTE] Yeah, so giving schools a handout didn't change their performance, where hard (or should I say harder) work, and not a bigger handout would have. Affirmative Action isn't giving people a shot at something they didn't have before. It gives minorities preferential treatment over others. As of now, minorities do not have to have the same level of performance because of Affirmative Action. Instead, they can do less work and get the same place. Affirmative Action doesn't motivate minorities to work harder. If anything, removing Affirmative Action would make minorities work harder to prove they are more better, more qualified, than everyone else, which is what I want, people working harder and producing better output to show they're more qualified to get where they got. I too am working hard and not relying on school handouts to get into a good school and I don't want race to be a factor in the admissions process, which I can do something about. I want to be accepted based on my grades, test scores, and extracurricular activities just like everyone else (a level playing field) not because I'm a minority (coming up to the plate with the pitcher throwing it to me slow and straight because I'm a minority). [QUOTE]I sort of want everyone to meet on the same level playing field, and we can do away with AA. I think that's the entire point of it.[/QUOTE] Affirmative Action creates a whole new discrimination, placing people on an unequal playing field. Making everyone the same was the point of Affirmative Action, but it's gone overboard and it's causing dicrimination, something it sought to prevent, which I think means it's overstayed its welcome.