Adahn

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]Adahn, you keep wanting us to criticize specifically your [i]interpretations[/i] of certain passages of the Bible. What you don't seem to understand is that your interpretation, whatever it may be, is largely beside the point because you start off on the premise that you are interpreting something TRUE. You think the Bible has literal truth written in it. [i]There[/i'], Adahn is your flaw. Siren, AzureWolf, Baron, everyone has pointed that out to you. You don't understand it. Therefore it is like talking to a brick wall.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Let me get this straight. My flaw is that I think the Bible has truth in it? I initially directed this whole thread at Christians, who (if you haven't noticed) cannot bring themselves to reply to me. My debates with you atheists/non-Christians is all I have, not that I'm ungrateful. However, I will not allow you to say that the Bible is completely untrue, and say that my inability to accept this "fact" makes me stubborn. I think I've carried on the debates fairly well (people are still debating with me), so I guess I don't really understand what you're trying to point out to me, here. I should admit defeat because I've been opposed? Is that what you're trying to say?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Siren']Having done an extensive study of it in World Masterpieces, various Religion courses, and a Religion and Psychology course, and also having read the entire New Testament in preparation for a thesis debunking any and all notions to compare Prince Hamlet to Jesus Christ, I think I've had more than ample experience in Biblical studies for this little discussion..[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Good, I was just curious as to how you came to the conclusion that the new testament essentially follows the guidelines of a tall-tale.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Adahn, your interpretation has been...that Christianity is misinterpreting the Bible and/or religion, that your interpretation of the Bible is correct, because you believe Reincarnation is the "proper" or "right" answer, because Christianity's Original Sin is barbaric and cruel. That's what your entire argument boils down to.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Original Sin is true. I believe a spiritual rebirth is necessary for eternal life.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] The Christianity misinterpreting the Bible/religion is blatantly obvious to begin with, so I don't see how you're making any groundbreaking observations there that we have to magically debunk, because you're really just stating the obvious. It's clear to anyone that there are significant flaws in the [i]application of religion[/i] (incidentally, I did mention the mis-application of religion in my very first post in this thread, some 7 pages back).[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'm showing exactly [i]how [/i]it is being misinterpreted, and am doing my best to interpret correctly.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] With your preaching that Reincarnation is the answer, that people will be given a second chance, that Christianity is unfair because of Original Sin, your argument holds a major flaw. With Universal Reincarnation (which is what you're telling us is the answer), everyone can do whatever they please, with no fears at all of any type of consequence, because they will always have another chance, regardless of who they are, or what they did.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The Christian idea of hell is unfair, not Original Sin. Let me get one thing straight. Reincarnation is not hell, but it is a [i]very bad thing[/i]. It is the ultimate punishment; death. This punishment is brought upon people because of their failure to accept that Jesus took death away. There are no souls burning in some imaginary hell, but when you die, you will be born again, and your life will have been completely and utterly wasted.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Simply put, one of the flaws in your interpretation is that human beings would never have to put in the effort to be rewarded.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The reward is eternal life, right here on earth. The effort is having faith in eternal life. This is not an easy thing. If I told you it were possible for you to be immortal through faith, you'd call me crazy, but that's [i]exactly[/i] how I am interpreting the Bible.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] At least Christianity would have people working for the reward. You're just giving it to them. Just giving something to people without having them [i]earn[/i] it isn't doing anyone any good; it just makes them lazy and further cements them in the Ideology that they don't have to lift a damn finger and they'll still get what they want.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This makes absolutely no sense to me. The reward is eternal life. I am not giving it to them. If they want to waste their lives and die, then yes, they are getting what they want.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] You're enabling people to fail by preaching Universal Reincarnation.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Reincarnation is bad. If you think wasting your life completely and dying is a good thing, then by all means, waste away.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] The Christian Doctrines of Original Sin and so forth aren't all that peachy-keen, I agree, but your idea isn't much better, if it's better at all. In fact, it's just as skewed as Christianity's Original Sin, except your idea is on the other extreme end of the spectrum.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I don't see how my idea isn't better. Hmm, no children burning in hell. A punishment that doesn't involve eternal suffering. Explain to me, in your own words, how my idea isn't much better. By the Christian definition, if my family were to die today, every one of them would burn in hell eternally. These are the sorts of things that push people away from God. Sure, the Christians get alot of people to fear hell and embrace death, but by my interpretation there is no salvation after death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Before I reply to you, Baron and Siren, I need to know one thing. Have either of you read the Bible?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Kitty]Damn it. You know I meant the devil. Critizing my spelling is irritating... [color=blue][size=1]And what does this mean? Saved from what I wonder? Do you mean I have a better chance to reunite with Jesus? Jesus was a man that got himself killed by claiming to be the son of God. Since I don't think God exists, I don't think he could POSSIBLY have been the son of God. Him coming back to life didn't happen, either. As I've said, when he died, he'd rot in his grave. Jesus is dead. Long dead.[/size][/color][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'm sorry, Kitty, I couldn't help myself. You have a better chance of being saved from death. Not spiritual death, but physical death. You put no glory in it, while it is all the Christians' glory. As for you saying Jesus died and rotted, well, he didn't leave behind a corpse, so much. If you don't believe he came back to life, how can you be sure of his existence, period?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]And Sciros, I'm not a brick wall. Let me just say I appreciate you saying that my interpretation is illogical without backing it up whatsoever. If you would so kindly point out the obvious flaws in my interpretation, I would appreciate it very much.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f](I apologize in advance if either Siren, Baron Samedi, or Azurewolf have read the Bible)[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Nobody who has replied to me has dared challenge any of my [i]interpretations.[/i] Sciros happily pointed out that they were illogical without anything to back himself up, and Cyriel and Midnight Rush have been rather quiet. I will need to know the extent of your knowledge of the Bible before I address any of your points, Siren. Same goes for you, Baron, since you say Siren's analysis is "spot on".[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Corey][size=1]Our lives [i]ARE[/i] cakewalks. Just wait unill you get to college. No one will teach you how to do things. You are given a book, an assignment, and are expected to learn it on your own. None of this guiding through BS. You are responsible completely for your actions in every way shape and form[size=2'].[/quote][/size][/size] [size=1][size=2][/size] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Actually, what you are saying is complete BS :D . All my teachers make very sure to cover everything in class, and also to let us know exactly what is on each quiz and test. My chemistry professor even has us draw a line in our notes, and tells us that everything up to that point is on the quiz. I haven't even opened my book, and I'm acing chem. Same thing with Math.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Corey] And as for the subjects you have in highschool right now, those are easy too compared to what you're going to find in college.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]High School was such a pain in the ***. I have 3 times less class time now than I did in high school, and I don't have to do anything, because the teachers are so good.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Corey] I think you need a serious reality check. If you walked one day in your parents shoes then you most certainly would see how great you've got it. You don't even have to worry about if you're going to have eletricity or water next month.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This is absolute crap. Your outlook on your situation is directly dependent on what you are used to. Your parents had to deal with crap, but that crap was their lives. You can't say that [i]anybody[/i] has it worse than anyone else, especially generalizing like this.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Corey] Think about it. Think hard. You have it easier than you can imagine.[/size][/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This person is asking an honest question, and has an honest problem. You don't live this person's life. You don't know who he/she is. Everyone's problems are just as important as everyone else's, and I, for one, don't appreciate you throwing what's important to this person in his/her face. There is nothing constructive in this whole post.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Edit: Ok, she's a girl. I forgot who started this thread in the middle of my reply, lol.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][font=book antiqua][size=2][color=blue]Adahn, here, I'll repost [b]what I just said[/b]: I bolded something you should read, if not the entire thing. That entire post you are referring to: how does it disprove Christianity? It's only your reasoning behind your beliefs. It doesn't show how Chrisitianity is wrong, or why you are right. All it shows is that you arrived at (as much as I hate to admit it) logical conclusions based on what was written in the Bible. Still, that's all there is. Why/how is your interpretation more right than Christianity's? Disrespectful and self-righteous? I do disagree! I was aiming more towards cynical, really, but it's the thought that counts, I guess.[/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Ah, a touch of humanity, you have gained some respect from me (whether or not this matters to you, I do not know). Why is my interpretation more right? By today's Christian definition, everyone is born into sin (I agree with this). This means that 1, 2, and 3 year olds that don't even have to ability to accept Jesus go to hell and burn eternally. They are not born innocent, nobody is innocent. By their definition, thousands of small children burn eternally in hell for every one person who makes it to heaven. This seems wrong to me. My solution is reincarnation. You said yourself I arrived at this conclusion logically, but I actually read the bible myself and got that [i]feeling.[/i] With what I believe, everybody has many, many chances to live forever, and nobody burns in eternal hellfire (except satan, lol). All the children that die are given another life, and their fair chance. If Christians would think about what they believe, they'd realize that my idea is better, they'd know it in their hearts, but they would close their mind because of their life's worth of lies that have been drilled into them as truth. People hate Christianity because of its hell, and it's belief in death and eternal damnation. I have done my best to show that there is another, better answer, with just as much support as they have, and taken from the same book. Nobody has argued with this, because they know in their hearts that what I say is true. I've dared them, challenged them, insulted them, and they say nothing. If they can't disprove me, then I ask them something else. Take what I say to heart, at least think about it. This is why my interpretation is better than Christianity's.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Adahn][i]1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? [/i] [i]1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: [/i] [i]1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: [/i] [i]1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [/i] The first few lines establish that there is a resurrection. The last line speaks of those that have died not being able to be reborn. To show this, he uses the word "asleep" instead of "dead". Those that sleep can wake up, but if Christ did not do as was said, then those that sleep can never wake up again. [i]1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.[/i] If we all died in Adam, does that not mean there is a part of us within him, and him within us? If there is anything that can be passed through all of humanity, it is the human soul. [i]1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.[/i] This is pretty straightforward. No more death. Not much interpretation. Jesus destroyed death, so we wouldn't have to endure it any longer. Of course, you can still die if you deny that he destroyed it. Your choice. [i]1Cr 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.[/i] This says there's no point in living if you're going to die. Life is meaningless if death is the end. Do what you want, it doesn't matter, it's not like you're going to [i]live forever[/i] . [i]1Cr 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? [/i] [i]1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: [/i] [i]1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: [/i] [i]1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.[/i] The meaning of this is a little hazy to me, but it says that seeds are souls, and God gives souls bodies. I think it speaks of reproduction here. If you attempt to reproduce, you are providing the flesh for the body which God may or may not put a soul into. [i]1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [/i] [i]1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [/i] [i]1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.[/i] This says that we are reborn into sin, but we can attain immortality through faith in Jesus. It tells of the difference between those that are saved from death and those that have faith in death. If you live in a natural body, you will die a natural death. If you live in a spiritual body (saved by Christ) then you are free from death. [i]1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.[/i] [i]1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [/i] This further distinguishes the spiritual and the natural. Adam was made to be perfect, but he was changed by sin into a quickening spirit, one that rushes towards death over and over. Jesus was brought into this world to save us from the law of sin and death. If we are as he is, we will be like those that are heavenly, which is without death. We bear the images of the earthy and the heavenly because we have a choice between faith in death and faith in eternal life. [i]1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[/i] [i]1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/i] This says that if you are earthy (of flesh and blood) you cannot have eternal life. He refers to sleep here as death, saying that some people will achieve eternal life without death, and others will sleep (die). Eventually, all of us will be changed, but why continue to die and be reborn if we can have our eternal life now? When this happens to all of us, death will be gone from everyone, forever. [i]1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? [/i] [i]1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. [/i] [i]1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.[/i] [i]1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. [/i] This talks of how Jesus has defeated death. It also says that sin and death are very closely related, and it can be said that when Adam sinned, Adam brought death into the world. It says that one should continue to do God's will throughout life, because we are clearing the path for death to be taken from everyone, whether they like it or not.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Here, Azurewolf. I'll repost the entire thing. You didn't question anything I said here. If you had, I would have argued back, and given more support. However, since you didn't question it, I don't exactly know what you're trying to get at. I'd also like to point out that you are extremely disrespectful and self-righteous. I dare you to disagree.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Siren']The existence of God still comes into question, however, even as one quotes the Bible, because the Bible is still written by humans, and humans are liable to make mistakes, misinterpret, and most importantly, apply their own meaning to things.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]This applies to everything. One must therefore be critical of everything he himself has not written, and take no one's interpretation as fact. However, some things that have been written do have a certain amount of truth to them. My ideas are based on impressions I get when I think certain things. This is occasionally started by what I read in a book. I describe theories and ideas I've never seen before, all the time. I apply my own meanings because I am distrustful of anyone elses. Everybody else isn't right all the time. I am.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] The Bible is an interesting piece of literature, simply because it's nothing more than a mythological text blown way out of proportion. If you were to look at the various creation stories throughout the world, various mythos of particular races and cultures, you will find there is a very similar trait about them:[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Siren] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You do realize that you are seeing parallels in certain texts, and are basing your conclusion that all is untrue upon those parallels, right? I always thought that when certain things show up over and over (periodic trends in chemistry, for example), there is some sort of truth driving them. If you'll notice, I have read the Bible, and drawn out those parallels which can be found in other religions. I believe the first reply to this thread called me a Christian-Buddhist hybrid. Your logic seems a little backwards to me.[/color][/size][/font][/b] All of those stories attempt to explain the unexplainable (at least, what was scientifically impossible to explain back then).[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Siren] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Most of the stories surrounding Jesus did not attempt to explain anything unexplainable, but rather placed before us certain events that were unexplainable. Jesus didn't create rivers and valleys or turn people into dolphins. He raised the dead.[/color][/size][/font][/b] An example of this is ancient Sumerian/Babylonian/Mesopotamian texts like Epic of Gilgamesh, texts that attributed the flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers to the gods. It was nature that scared them. It was nature that they did not understand. It was nature viewed as a threat to mankind, and thus, the humans were forced to create mythos (rationalizations) in order to better cope with this destruction.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The old testament follows this very well, what with plagues and droughts. However, the new testament doesn't deal with any of that at all, and that is where I get most of my ideas from. If you can find something that fits anything you said here in the new testament, I would appreciate seeing it.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Odyssey and Iliad are other examples. Nearly the entire works are filled with sacrifices, praise songs, verses, etc, all dedicated to the gods, so that the gods will smile upon them by granting Odysseus safe voyage on the seas. Regularly, they sacrificed to Poseidon so they could travel safely.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The old testament, again, is full of sacrifice, I view Jesus as the final sacrifice, and that anything further is not only displeasing to God, but it is insulting.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Beowulf is yet another example of a personification of death (Grendel and Grendel's mum) to better cope with death itself. Beowulf kills Grendel and Dam. What does that say about the story? What does that say about the purpose? It's a feel-good story, albeit an incredibly gory and bloody one. It's written to entertain and improve morale. The Bible is no different. It's a collection of short stories written over many years (Gilgamesh, Iliad, Beowulf, anyone?) that attempt to engage the reader in a comfortable manner, to teach them a moral lesson, life lesson, and so on. Yet, it's been elevated to Canon status, when if you were to look at it objectively, it's just another subjective look at nature and the human condition, just like Gilgamesh, Iliad, Beowulf, et al.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The Bible is far from what you would call a look at nature and the human condition. The Bible throws humanity in our face, telling us that we were not meant to live and die. It says we can achieve eternal life on earth. That is the most unnatural thing someone could say.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] I'm not saying that anyone written of in the Bible was hallucinating or anything, because that's just silly. What I [i]am[/i] saying, though, is, like I've said previously, I seriously doubt the..."realness" of what the Bible says, because let's face it. Back then, those people were far, far more impressionable and simple than we are now, and they would "see" things in a much more fantastic way, because that's the only way they could explain things ("God wants it to be this way").[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]These were not "things" that were just happening. This was a person that everyone could touch and see, performing personal miracles. He didn't call lightning down or transform people into animals. He took people that had been deformed all their life and made them perfect with his touch. Again, this is not explaining the unexplainable. This is throwing reality in our faces and telling us that we're just not getting something.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] How old is the Bible these days? 2000 years old? 2500? More than that? We've seen throughout literary history that the stories of Victorian England, Ancient Rome, India, Russia, Mesopotamia, Greece, America, Germanic England, etc, are all interchangeable. You'd be surprised that you can remove something like the story of Abraham and replace it with portions of the Bhagavad Gita and nobody would know the difference thematically. Character-wise, yes, there's a difference, but that's a minor difference. Anything you read in the Bible can be found countless times in other pieces of literature, some dated after the Bible, but some dated far, far before. [/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Again, if you see parallels in different texts, is it not more logical to search for an underlying truth, rather than make the assumption that it is all false?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] What I'm saying is...the Bible isn't true. God isn't real. It's all a giant ancient rationalization that fits into the larger rationalization of ancient literary history. Like Iliad and Beowulf, the Bible is a simple mythology based on nature.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Siren] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Again, the Bible presents the most unnatural idea to us. The idea that it is possible for someone to live and not die.[/color][/size][/font][/b] Adahn, in talking with yourself, you're doing simply that: talking with yourself. You are still supplying your own answers, and the only reason you believe God (or truth) to be talking to you is because you believe God (or truth) to be talking to you. That doesn't mean He is, however. It's not objective; it's subjective, and subjectivity is not truth.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Things go on with me that are completely out of my control. There is a driving force with its own will that lives inside me, and I don't know what it is. I can't control it. I can't talk to it. I can only try and understand what its motives are. It's never led me astray, and this is the direction it's pushing me in, now. I trust more in myself than I do in any book or anyone's teachings. He that is inside me can do me no harm.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Kitty][color=blue][size=1]Frankly, I don't believe in God, Satin, or angels. And especially not what saints say about God. Those who "talk" to God, really, they're just insane.[size=2'].[color=#000000][/quote][/color][/size][/size][/color] [color=blue][size=1][size=2][color=#000000][/color][/size][/size][/color] [size=1][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b]Well, you have a right to say almost all this. I assure you, satin is real, and it's soft and wonderful. I agree that most people who talk to God are just kidding themselves. The reach out with their minds, not expecting an answer. I reach in with my mind, and I get my answers.[/b][/color][/size][/font][/size] [color=blue][size=1][size=2][color=#000000][/color][/size] [QUOTE=Kitty] Call me stupid and irrational, but I need evidence. Proof. When we die, we rot in our graves. Our conciousness disappears and never comes back. You live one life. That's all you get. .[color=#000000][/QUOTE][/color] [color=#000000][/color] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][b]What you need is for lots of people to tell you what to believe. Do you have proof that atoms exist? Everybody sure says a whole lot about them. Chemistry and Christianity are actually extremely similar. They both require faith, and they both answer alot of questions. Yes, I do know people who don't believe in chemistry. You're no more irrational than they are. You use the same logic.[/b][/color][/size][/font] [color=#000000][/color] [QUOTE=Kitty] You don't talk to God, you talk to yourself. Your own dependance on believing that there is someone that started all this, that there was never nothingness where you're standing (or sitting) this moment, is what makes you "hear" Him. Your belief in His existance makes you feel like you know he's there. He isn't really there..[color=#000000][/QUOTE][/color] [color=#000000][/color] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][b]You can't physically hear your own voice in your head when you talk to yourself. Therefore, since the mind has no physical representation, it doesn't exist. It isn't really there. To me, you don't exist. You're just words on OB. Until I can see you or hear you or touch you, you're nothing.[/b][/color][/size][/font] [color=#000000][/color] [QUOTE=Kitty] But, then again, that's just my opinion. Me being an athiest, I've come to hate most God believers for getting so much **** about what I've chosen to believe. That's also why I'm in a personal war with my own mother. Religion is basically ********, lies to make us feel better. Nothing more. Nothing less..[color=#000000][/QUOTE][/color] [color=#000000][/color] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][b]I know people who hate God-believers, too. Here's something to make you warm and comfy. To me, you're no better or worse than the millions of Christians out there. Their hell doesn't exist. They will end up in the same place as you; in the dirt. I, personally, believe in rebirth as a punishment. Your consciousness doesn't exist, and your body rots, but no part of you burns eternally. Anybody who bitches at you for that reason is an asshole. I think a part of you will live on; your soul. You have chosen to throw your life away, so you will be born again with another chance. Perhaps I'll recognize you when we live in a perfect world where everyone has denied hell and death and accepted Jesus in their hearts.[/b][/color][/size][/font] [color=#000000][/color] [QUOTE=Kitty] I wait to see how people respond to my above text. Or rather, I wait to get bashed.[/size][/color][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You probably don't even find this insulting. However, this would make most Christians turn over in their graves. I can tell you this. You have a better chance of being saved than they do.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Now, I didn't read everybody's post, and I'm hoping that this isn't a repeat of what anyone already said. It has to do with moods. Moods tend to be seen visibly in someone's face, do to certain contortions. These contortions affect the eyes, too. If the surface of your eyes bends a certain way, even from the pressure of eyelids, the curvature changes. This changes the way light is reflecting off of them, making it possible for a color change to be observed, perhaps even a consistent one if the facial expressions are similar. My eyes are brown, however, and I doubt anybody cares or notices if they become more or less brown, lol.[/color][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Let's see if I can answer everyone's questions in 5 minutes before class. Azurewolf, you basically said, in every drawn out paragraph, that the Christians and I interpret the Bible differently. Good job. What I want is for someone to question my interpretation. If you won't do that, I won't reply to any of your posts. Baron and Siren, God showed himself 2,000 years ago, and he did a pretty good job of it. Is He going to come back because people say, "It's been too long! We need to see you again, or we won't believe in you!"? Also, it is my belief that He lives inside of me. Yes, I've talked to Him, but I'm talking to the truth. You ever debate with yourself about things you'd like to change internally? He speaks with your voice. It's actually pretty fun talking to Him. He has all the answers.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]EDIT: Out of class, let me go more in depth.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Must we constantly see reminders of what we know is true for it to remain true? Do I have to go stand by an apple tree and wait for an apple to fall to make sure there is still gravity? If God shows himself to us in our lifetime, it's only a matter of time before people whine that they've never seen Him. It's been 2,000 years, perhaps next time it will be 200 before people complain. And then 20. Then we'll need a reminder every 2 years. He came and took care of it all 2,000 years ago, and if you won't believe that any of those things happened, why would you believe anything now?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Oh, and Baron. I'll reply to your other post a.s.a.p., but I need someone else to post first.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I changed my mind. I'd like to see Kerry win Ohio, just so I could see Midnight Rush crap his pants. He's so excited. He might just lose his life if Bush loses, lol. He's on top of the world right now. He'd fall off if it got turned upside-down. I can't wait.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Oh well, looks like Bush is going to win. I honestly don't care a whole lot. I voted for Kerry, and Bush got the highest vote percentage in my county than any other, lol. The parties really aren't a whole lot different. Some people get way too excited. I'd feel about the same if Kerry had won as I feel now with Bush winning. Thank God for the election not being over in the middle of night. Or rather, thank Ohio. I got enough sleep, polished off those pizza rolls, and got out of my chem lab early. Today is a good day.[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][font=book antiqua][size=2][color=blue]Well, you also challenged him about that, but I did that first. Funny enough, he said I was misunderstanding him... Anyway, the mere fact that Adahn had no clue about the Christian concept of the Holy Trinity (alongside the running in hypocritical circles bit) tells me that Adahn isn't really looking for an answer, but just acknowledgement. Again, how can you question a religion you have no knowledge of? In fact, weren't you saying that the Christian idea of what happened to God is wrong and your version is right? In order to say such a thing, wouldn't you have to know the Christian idea, which was the Holy Trinity? As your discussion continues with him, Baron, I'm noticing some rather strange returns to my initial arguments...[/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Yeah, throw the misunderstanding thing at me some more. I really appreciate it.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The father, the son, and the holy ghost. It's all made up to me. I've read the Bible, and there's no such thing as the Holy Trinity in it. I'm looking for discussion. That's why I'm questioning it. I never said I was looking for an answer. I was looking for opposition. I have my answers, I'm just waiting for someone to question what I think. In all 90 or so posts so far, almost none have touched on anything I've named as important. People generally just look for holes in the unimportant aspects of my arguments, and force me to explain surface thoughts. It's really quite annoying, but it's better than nothing. Oh, and if you don't know much about the Holy Trinity yourself, Azurewolf, who are you to say that it is the foundation of Christianity? Have you not read the Bible, either?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Your arguments were all about surface thoughts and ideas, and those things change. It's no wonder you see strange returns, everything's ephemeral.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1] If only because I don't know much about the Bible, and because you made a big deal out of finding your own truth 'inside of you'..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Hmm, if you don't know much about the Bible, you really can't understand anything I'm saying. It's a good book, regardless, and you should read it. One of the requirements for all of my arguments is that you have some understanding of the Bible. Read it, and then tell me how you feel.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] Not necessarily. This is in part what I argued before; You do not know what everybody feels, only what you feel. Making assumptions that everybody feels the same way is silly, and, sorry to say it, self-centered. I don't want to exist forever. Why would I? I just want to succeed in the here and now. And you cannot tell me otherwise, because you are not me..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You're right, Baron Samedi. People have nothing in common. Oh, and yes I can tell you otherwise. You're so afraid of not existing you can't even admit it to yourself. It's a part of humanity. Get used to it. Deal with it. Like I said before, if you don't need that, you're not human.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] I said that this 'man' could "find" God to be either true/untrue. I did not bring needs or desires into it. What you are saying is that you 'need' God to be true. Therefore, your opinion cannot be trusted. See where I'm coming from?.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Hmm, my opinion can't be trusted? I suppose my need for food can't be trusted either. I have a need for truth. I hunger for it. Spirituality feeds that hunger. As soon as someone starts deciding whether something is true or not, they're listening to their mind, not their heart. You brought needs and desires into it, you just did it without thinking.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] Nothing, lol. I was referring to your statement that proving the metaphysical was impossible..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Ok, I was just confused as to why you wrote what you did.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] And I didn't quote all of your statements, because some of them felt unclear. And because, really, I don't see why we're arguing over the Butterfly Theory, lol.[/size][/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]When I find something unclear, I ask for clarification...[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I killed the argument over the Chaos Theory, didn't I?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']But, although the theory behind the Butterfly Effect is relatively sound, it doesn't work in the context of a butterfly. Or indeed, making a tornado. Because localised effects do not spread, and energy expends itself. Yes, events are made up of small events. But a butterfly's participation would not be needed, nor noticeable, in the creation of a tornado. In fact, it wouldn't even count towards it.[size=2][/quote][/size] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Allow me to nip this in the butt. [color=blue][url="http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci759332,00.html"]Chaos Theory[/url][/color][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]The Chaos theory is in fact, a theory. You can argue that such a small event is irrelevant, but lots of experts in the subject say that it is not. You and I don't have the capacity to debate both sides, seeing as we lack the necessary math and physics skills to effectively support our views.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Baron Samedi]You said Christianity was wrong [at least in some parts'].[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes, the commonly accepted interpretation of the Bible is wrong.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Baron Samedi'] Thank you. Now we have boiled down this argument to the core; Bible and Heart. [/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You say very little about the Bible here, and speak mostly of the heart.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Baron Samedi']Obviously, the Bible can be interpreted within a certain range.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]True. This is the basis of my arguments against the Church.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Baron Samedi']But, we'll focus on the Heart. Each person has a different Heart, and can find different things when they look around them.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Actually, there are certain things a person will find. One is the need to exist forever in some form. If you don't need this, you're inhuman.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Baron Samedi']As in, upon deep reflection of his heart, a man may find God to be untrue, and there to be no necessary parameters to live life by.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]If a person wants God to be untrue, he will think he's untrue. When you say this, you're very obviously moving from the realm of the heart to the realm of the mind.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Baron Samedi']No forgiveness, no redemption. He wouldn't have to follow the rules.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Nobody [i]has[/i] to follow the rules. People follow consequences. People believe in Christianity because they don't want to go to hell. If they say anything different, they're lying to themselves. I'm not afraid of hell (I don't believe in it). My belief is based on my desire to exist forever in one form or another (namely the one I'm in now).[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Baron Samedi']Another man, upon deep personal reflection of his heart may find the wonder of God. You get the drift.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]He'll only find it if he's looking for it and he wants it. Again, we're dealing with the mind. The heart is based upon [i]needs[/i], not desires. When you desire something, your mind immediately starts working. Need is a natural thing. You can't change needs. I need food. I need water. I need to use the bathroom. I need to not be nonexistent.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Baron Samedi']This is not saying that the unbelievers will go forth to rape and pillage though, lol. Just an example.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]That's consequences. If you knew there were no consequences, and you wanted to rape and pillage, you'll rape and pillage. Even if there were a chance of consequences, but not too severe, you would still do it. You don't need it. You do desire it.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Baron Samedi]Therefore we can see that personal reflection can bring forth personal truth, but not necessarily [or perhaps ever'] Absolute Truth.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Desire brings forth ideas one can pretend come from the heart. Truth comes from need.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] And I do believe you challenged me to prove something metaphysical ~_^ Heh.[/size][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]What have you proven, again?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]First, I'd like to point out that I just ate a pizza roll that had nothing in it.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Second, I was wondering what everyone does on election day. Did you vote? Will you stay up for the results? Will you party if one thing happens and/or break things if it doesn't? Do you live in the U.S. and not care? Why? Do you live outside the U.S. and care? Why?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]So many questions. I indeed voted, and there are two things I'm interested in, mainly.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. Who will the president be?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. Will there be a constitutional ban on gay marriage?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'm probably going to stay up, because I'm in a college dorm that is fairly divided. I expect screams of joy and exultation in harmony with curses and the sounds of glass shattering, all around 2:00 A.M. and for hours afterwards. I can't wait, especially with my 8:00 A.M. chemistry lab tomorrow. Oh man, I'm pumped.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Cyriel']You're absolutely right on that core of Christianity - what you have is a personal relationship with God[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]That personal relationship is compromised by the teachings of the Church. It is in my opinion that people should be allowed to think for themselves, and this is frowned upon in any and every church. They take their interpretations, and do not allow anyone to challenge them. If you challenge their beliefs, you should go to a different church, because they strive for unity and sameness.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Cyriel] But what I still don't understand is why you say that no one recognizes that as the core. And as for how the Church interprets the Bible, why is there no truth in that? Which Church are you speaking of?[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Your friend midnight rush recently told me that the core of Christianity was having one chance to accept Jesus, and that one can either accept Him and go to Heaven, or deny Him and go to Hell. The Church I speak of is any and every church that has that basic idea as a part of its foundation. I think that's about all of them.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Cyriel] And...I'm just trying to understand here - you're saying that the Church doesn't accept Jesus Christ as dying for their sins, correct?[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The church doesn't understand that Jesus died[i] for[/i] us. For meaning that we don't have to die. Yes, he did speak of a spiritual rebirth, but that is achieved in life, not after death. He freed us from the law of sin and death. What is the law of sin and death, you ask? If you sin, you will die.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][i]Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Man's body was meant to be immortal to start, but Adam ruined that. Jesus came to earth to undo what Adam did.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This is what the Church (defined above) denies. They say that Jesus saved the soul from death, not the body. The soul has always been immortal. Even if it could be cast into hell, it would still exist.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The Church says that only the soul can be saved, and that our bodies are merely shells, but that's wrong. It never says that, anywhere. They had to say this because they could not believe that Jesus saved us from a spiritual [i]and[/i] a physical death.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This is where true faith begins. Faith in something that is contradicted by everything we know and see. Faith in eternal life.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [font=Tahoma][size=2][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Well, I'm in a long-distance relationship right now, and I think it's going rather well. We're both in the U.S., so the intercontinental barriers Midnight Rush had to deal with aren't present. I actually met her on Otakuboards, go figure. We lost touch for a while, but I got ahold of her a little over a month ago. The odd thing is that I wasn't looking for that kind of relationship. I really just wanted to be friends and get to know her better, but we hit it off. Video IM and such are helpful, because you can actually see and talk to each other. The lack of a physical relationship is a downside, but I'm relatively inexperienced in that area, so I'm not extremely bothered by it. To combat this problem, I've decided to fly down and visit her for a couple weeks. My parents bought the plane tickets for me as a Christmas present, and I think everything is going to go well for us. It will suck when I have to leave, but I'll be able to hold onto the memories we make, I'll still be able to talk to her, and I will know that I'll be able to see her again.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]Then why did we have all that 'delightful side-topic' about wind currents then, lol. Yes, the Butterfly Theory works well, in some cases. Not so well in others. What about other religions which propose that 'the truth to your troubles is inside of you'? I don't think Christianity was the first to say that, and it certainly wasn't the last. [b]Edit[/b]: Oh and Sciros, that was me who challenged Adahn to prove that it worked on the metaphysical plane. Leastways, I think it was.[/size][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]The Butterfly Effect is meant to apply to the physical realm, as well as the mental. The movie represented this well.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I tell you now that no widely accepted faith-based system that exists today has all the answers. Where Christianity is wrong, other religions are right, and where other religions are wrong, Christianity is right. I do not, however, blend the ideals. Everything I say comes from the Bible and my own heart, and that is the core of Christianity that nobody recognizes. If you listen to how the Church interprets the Bible, you will not find the truth. If you look for it yourself, you will find it. The Church today is as the Jews were 2,000 years ago when they persecuted Christ.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Trying to prove the metaphysical is impossible.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=lava lamp]I wasn't categorizing you, although it would've been easy to do so. I didn't say you fell into the same bin as other people with inflated egos like you did in the case of labeling me as a "Wrist cutter wannabe". Keep exposing your lack of exposure to people as a whole, though. Also, I wasn't trying to be witty. Thank you for [b]complimenting[/b] me.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I can't take it anymore. I apologize for my assumption that you were trying to be witty. I realize now that you were merely stating that you disliked people with egos, and it would have been better of me to only say that calling someone "not unintelligent" is a huge compliment, only because I must be extremely impressed with someone before I feel right complimenting them. It's like inflation. The more compliments (by me) that are out there, the less they're worth.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]That is a great idea Adahn...but where does it leave the poor butterfly, lol. As I see it, it bears little resemblance to the Butterfly Theory [when you view it as being literal], because physical and mental values are different. The thing is, how can you say that everybody shares the same characteristics in their hearts. A person can only ever know one person. Themself. They cannot know how others think, what they think, how their minds work, what they feel. It is impossible to imagine yourself as being another person. You don't know what I have in my heart, and I don't know whats in yours. So, you cannot say that everyone has the same place in their heart. You're right, truth is everything. But, unless you can produce proof that other people can see, then although it may be truth, no-one will ever know. And you'll never know if you have the truth, or someone else does. In something like this, there can [i]be no definitive truth[/i].[/size][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]The butterfly theory is a nice little side topic, and it's meant to be seen as beautiful and deep rather than logical and reasonable.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Next, you are saying that there is no such thing as empathy. Not everyone has all the same characteristics in his/her heart, but [i]some [/i]characteristics are shared. This is what I mean when I say people have the same places in their hearts. If we didn't, one person would see murder as terribly wrong, another wouldn't care, and another would think it was right. People who think it is right are lying to themselves, not listening to their hearts.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Now you're getting into absolute and relative truth. Truth is a personal thing. If you look in the right place, you'll come up with the truth that anyone and everyone is capable of knowing. That is the basis of Christianity, that everyone has the ability to know the truth if they search themselves for it. It's the basis of every religion, actually. *thinks for a moment* That doesn't help my argument much. But, it's true, so I guess it stays. I guess all I can say is that all other religions create places in your heart for themselves, while in Christianity, the truth is already embedded deeply inside.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='lava lamp']6. People who pretend to know anything about the people they categorize[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Oh, but I know more than you think. Also, that was not a categorization, but rather an observation. Your post was obviously meant to be witty/sarcastic, but you only see what's on the surface. If you want to be witty/sarcastic, you need to think deeper. You have to identify my motives, and respond to them. Any compliment is huge coming from me, simply because I don't compliment people.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Oh, I guess you fall into the category of your own pet peeve, then. *points up*[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]I'd like to re-iterate a point I made a few posts ago. It seems to have been glazed over. [b]Edit[/b]: You're correct Adahn. Some people do come to the same conclusion as you. But, not everybody would. Thats all I am saying. Everybody's heart is unique. And in regard to your challenge to Azurewolf: Not necessarily. It cannot be disproven that humans can't fly. Maybe they're just not trying hard enough. Or, it cannot be disproven that the universe is contained inside Protons. But, neither can it be proven. Sometimes there is no way to come to definite conclusions on an issue.[/size][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Ok, here's something more close to home. Think of a good or bad experience that you've had, one that would seem small to others, but had a huge effect on your life. Now, think of how you'd be different if that event didn't happen. It would cause so many changes that you would be very different from the person you are today.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes, everybody's heart is unique, but they all share some characteristics. If it is in those places that people search, and the same knowledge is contained within those areas, then people will come to the same conclusion.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]In your last point, you are correct. Absolutely nothing can be proven. However, proof is nothing. Truth is everything. You can't prove or disprove truth, because it stands alone. You can't argue against it, because the opposite of truth are lies. Proof is something man needs to suit his selfish desires, while truth is what man needs to satisfy his spiritual desires.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=lava lamp][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/fructose/unintelligent.jpg[/img] 5. Someone with an inflated ego[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]You misunderstand. I'm not exactly the compliment fairy. I give credit where credit is due, and never without good reason.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Another pet peeve. Wrist cutter wannabes.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]Adahn, do you know what the word "prove" means? You can't tell someone to find proof for something "within himself." If you claim that faith is proof then you do not know what the word [i]proof[/i'] means. Which makes things difficult for you... [/quote][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]How do you know you can't find proof if you don't look?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade] You make claims such as "God is within you," "God 'created us in his image,' from the infinite perfection that is himself," etc. etc. and you have nothing substantial to back them up. You are working off solely your personal interpretation of "holy" scripture. [/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]What can I base my claims off besides what is written in the Bible, and what I've explored in my own heart and mind? I'll ask you the same thing. Have you explored your own heart? If yes, what did you learn?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade] You claim that what you think is the truth. Well, then, the burden of proof lies on you buddy. You're going to have to prove to us that there is no other possible alternative, that there is no other explanation other than yours for everything you've mentioned. You are going to have to prove that the sources you derive your conclusions from are also telling the truth. Prove it. Otherwise your claims are baseless. [/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I can't prove it to you, because I have no sway over your heart, nor your mind. Take what I say to heart, think about it, and then tell me what you feel.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade] __________________________ Also, your explanation of the butterfly theory doesn't help you. It still cannot be tested. Tell me, has an experiment been designed with enough controls to suggest that, indeed, "Since all said factors must be present for the final product, no one is greater than another in determining the outcome." It hasn't. There is no suggestion that the butterfly theory is true. It is a postulation, nothing more.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]It's all physics and chemistry. You don't have to test it. If you add a pinch of salt to a vat of soup, that soup will be different. If a butterfly's wing contributes energy that in some way affects a tornado, that tornado will be different. It's really just logic. If something affects something else, then what it affects is affected...wow, that's odd sounding. If you add energy to a system, that system will change, however slightly. If you remove energy from a system, the system will change. The whole butterfly starting a tornado idea is not testable, but it wasn't meant to be. It was supposed to demonstrate how seemingly small events affect larger events. To take it literally is to miss the entire point.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Edit: Baron Samedi, how do you know that those who genuinely soul-search don't arrive to the same conclusion? There are those who think the way I do, and it is because they can't help themselves. They have to look for truth, because they burn for it.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Azurewolf, if something cannot be disproven, doesn't that make it true? Show me something that breaks my little idea of beginnings and endings. Any example will do.[/color][/size][/font][/b]