Spider-Man Discussion Thread

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]Seeing as there's a Batman thread,I thought I'd start a thread about the greatest comic book super hero of all time, the Spectacular Spider-Man.

Created in the sixties, Spider-Manh as become [b]the[/b] staple character of Marvel Universe. He's been in all media forms, spawned countless toys, and set a record with his recent movie debute. (Sequel comes out thiss ummer.)

The best era of Spider-Man, in my opinion, was the 80's. There, you had two high-quality comcs each month with some top-notch creators. Roger Stern, Peter David, JM DeMattis, Tom DeFalco, etcetera. The Amazing Spider-Man focused on Peter Parker's life as a photographer in the Daily Bugle, while Spectacular focused on his student life at ESU. Thems was good times.

Sadly, they weren't to last. A change in the industry brought on by the vastly over-rated Todd McFarlane lead to the decay of quality in all Marvel Comics, Spider-Man included. It was a period of wretched excess, with five inter-related titles every month, plus countless guest-stars and cross over events.

And, of course, this was the time of the dreaded Clone Saga, created to compete with the infinatly more stupid Death of Superman debacle. Originally, the Saga was only supposed to last six months, but a combimnation of interference by both marketing and the editorial staff streatched the damn thing for over two and a half years.

I'm one of those who will say that it wasn't all bad, but I can certainly see why so many people hated it.

The titles limped along in the period between '96 and '99, with only Spectacular Spider-Man being really intense, high-quality stuff, (although I have a soft spot for the goofy action of the sensation Spider-Man), until the event even more appaling than the Clone Saga: the reboot. It was'nt that the idea of restarting the titles was really that bad (lthough it was still pretty stupid), it was that the quality of writing dropped so, so very much that the books were insultingly bad.

How bad were they? They resurrected Aunt May from the grave. Frickin' Aunt May.

Fortunatly, the storm passed, and Spidey is in a revival. t Hevastly overrated JMS (in my opinion) and Paul Jenkins (great, great writer) helm the main titles. Brian Micheal Bendis and Mark Bagly (One of my favorite Spidey artists of all time) head the reinterpretation of Spider-Man's past in Ultimate Spider-Man. Mark Miller and Terry Dodson will start up the new Marvel Knights Spider-Man title in April. Things are coming up roses.

So, who else here loves the amazing adventures of Spider-Man?[/color][/size][/font]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I used to be a pretty big Spiderman fan, especially during the early days of the Saturday morning Spidey cartoon. But I never got into the comics, because the ones I read really sucked. Spiderman it seems to me has been the victim of a horrendous butchery of continuity over the last decade or so. I don't know how many versions of the Venom saga there are out there, but there's more than one, that's for sure. I don't think I've run into any decent Spiderman TPBs, either. I usually go for the graphic novels, because the mothlies tend to fall apart and I can't keep them in a shelf or anything.

I guess I had always liked the "ideal" Spiderman, the one in my head, and not the one in the comics. As far as storylines go, anyway.

The movie just pissed me off. For I don't know how many reasons. Some of the worst casting ever (esp. with Dunst playing MJ), some of the worst dialogue ever ("finish it! finish it!" I wanted to kill somebody), and some of the worst action ever (that part where Spidey does the queerest slo-mo twirly-flip I've ever seen to avoid Goblin's sharp spinny things and gets cut by them anyway; so pathetic). And then the random blatant product placement, like Goblin flying behind a Cingular ad and staying there for a couple of seconds. And that happened twice. Plus there were all the usual problems I had with it, like the acting, the unoriginal and completely non-memorable score (good ole' Danny Elfman shows us that he can do Batman and only Batman when it comes to superheroes. Ever heard his "Flash" theme?).

But the movie hurt Spiderman as a superhero in my eyes. Now I see him as more of a loser, just because the films suck so much. Poor Spidey. Oh, yeah, the MTV cartoon didn't help either. Batman, on the other hand, was so established in my view that even the crappy movies didn't change how I saw him. But that's because of the killer cartoons and decent novels/graphic novels I've read.

In short, I like Spiderman as a character but that alone. I hate his universe, his ridiculous continuity, and most of the supporting characters. And the villains all strike me as extremely uninteresting and rather similar. There's no Joker or Luthor in Spiderman. There's a Luthor wannabe, but that's it. But that's just how I see him.

[Pagan]

I'm really glad to see a surge of comic book disscusion here. I'm even more excited to finally see a Marvel superhero. I would like to appluad DeathBug, for bringing the Marvel fans this wonderful thread dedicated to "Our Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man".

I used to be really into Spider-Man back when I first started reading comics. I remember the first Spider-Man comic I read was Amazing Spider-Man #346 where Vemon returns to kill Spider-Man, but ends up on a deserted island. That one was awesome and I believed it could only get better. Then in 2000 it happened, Marvels dummest move ever, the reprint. They restarted almost every Spidey series, so they can go back and tell the entire story over for the new fans. They even went as far to cancel some pretty good series like Spider-Man 2099 and turn them into utter crap like Peter Parker Spider-Man.

I still try to read Spider-Man comics but they just aren't as good as they used to be. They've made the plot weaker and less interesting to the reader. I mean sure Spider-Man Unlimited is pretty good but it just can't compare to the good old Amazing Spider-Man. The last truelly great Spider-Man was the 9/11 issue, that I admit made me cry.

The only thing that's really better about the new comics is the art work thanks in part to Damion Scott(Spectacular Spider-Man drawer) and Mark Bagley(Ultimate Spider-Man drawer). These guys half way know what they're doing, but the writers are still in lala land. I look at J.T. Krul(Spider-Man Unlimited writer) and wonder what he is thinking.

I must say the movie industry and the television industry are doing wonders with Spider-Man. The 90s cartoon series was excellent and very accurately followed the Spider-Man story. The Spider-Man Unlimited show that came on fox wasn't all that great but still I watched it. Then the movie came out that didn't really stick to the story well, but still was interesting. Now the MTV cartoon that has some seriously good animation, but terrible storyline has come and gone in a matter of seconds.

I'm half way looking forward to Spider-Man 2 mainly because I want to see if the villian is going to be Venom or Doctor Octopus.

[DeathBug]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade'] I used to be a pretty big Spiderman fan, especially during the early days of the Saturday morning Spidey cartoon. But I never got into the comics, because the ones I read really sucked. Spiderman it seems to me has been the victim of a horrendous butchery of continuity over the last decade or so. I don't know how many versions of the Venom saga there are out there, but there's more than one, that's for sure.[/quote]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]
Uh...no, there's just one. What are you talking about? Spidey's had continous continunity since the beginning, although he also has an "Ultimate" title. (Which [really needs to go, in my opinion.)

The Spidey cartoon that ran in '94 to...whenever, started out well. However, after the first season, it began to fall aprt. Spider-Man's show should not be dominated by vampires, for God's sake. And why in the heck did Morbius have more appearances than Venom? Sheesh.
[/color][/font][/size]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade'] I don't think I've run into any decent Spiderman TPBs, either. I usually go for the graphic novels, because the mothlies tend to fall apart and I can't keep them in a shelf or anything.[/quote]
[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]
You should look for: Venom, Coming Home, One Small Break, The Death of Jean DeWolfe, Origin of the Hobgoblin, Revenge of the Green Goblin, The Death of Gwen Stacy, The Wedding, Murder By Spider, Clone Genesis, or The Very Best of Spider-Man.[/color][/font][/size]



[quote name='ScirosDarkblade'] In short, I like Spiderman as a character but that alone. I hate his universe, his ridiculous continuity, and most of the supporting characters.[/quote]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]Ridiculous continunity? Wasn't the original reason that Lex Luthor hated Superman was because he caused him to be bald?[/color][/font][/size]



[quote name='ScirosDarkblade'] And the villains all strike me as extremely uninteresting and rather similar. There's no Joker or Luthor in Spiderman. There's a Luthor wannabe, but that's it. But that's just how I see him.[/quote]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]Now, I think that's interesting, because most comic fans I know feel that Spider-Man has the best group of villains in the Marvel Universe, with Batman having the best in the DC Universe.

You're not interested in Norman Osborn, the Kingpin, the Hobgoblin, Doctor Octopus, Electro, the Lizard, the Shocker, the Vulture, the Sandman, Mysterio, the Jackal, the Rhino, Morbius, Fusion, the Scorpion? 'Tis your perogative.

And, there is a "Luthor" in Spider-Man: Norman Osborn/Green goblin. He was an evil businessman in the sixties, while Lex Luthor was still running around in tight green pants. Luthor wasn't a cool business guy until John Bryne's retcon of Supe's origin in the '80's. [/color][/font][/size]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[QUOTE=DeathBug][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]
Uh...no, there's just one. What are you talking about? Spidey's had continous continunity since the beginning, although he also has an "Ultimate" title. (Which [really needs to go, in my opinion.)
[/color][/font][/size][/QUOTE]

I wasn't referring to the comics alone. With the cartoon (which isn't considered canon, but nevertheless defined Spiderman for most people) that's two Venom stories, and with Ultimate it may be three (though I didn't read Ultimate). It might not be fair to mix comic books with anything else, but because I've watched more of the show than I read comics, in my mind it's all a huge mix-up.

[QUOTE][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]
You should look for: Venom, Coming Home, One Small Break, The Death of Jean DeWolfe, Origin of the Hobgoblin, Revenge of the Green Goblin, The Death of Gwen Stacy, The Wedding, Murder By Spider, Clone Genesis, or The Very Best of Spider-Man.[/color][/font][/size][/QUOTE]

I might look into them when I go to Borders next. But I don't like the goblins as villains at all, so that leaves half the titles you mentioned...


[QUOTE][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]Ridiculous continunity? Wasn't the original reason that Lex Luthor hated Superman was because he caused him to be bald?[/color][/font][/size][/QUOTE]
Maybe maybe, but I only care about present-day Superman. The bullcrap they came up with before my time doesn't matter to me. I know it was stupid.


[QUOTE][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]Now, I think that's interesting, because most comic fans I know feel that Spider-Man has the best group of villains in the Marvel Universe, with Batman having the best in the DC Universe.

You're not interested in Norman Osborn, the Kingpin, the Hobgoblin, Doctor Octopus, Electro, the Lizard, the Shocker, the Vulture, the Sandman, Mysterio, the Jackal, the Rhino, Morbius, Fusion, the Scorpion? 'Tis your perogative. [/color][/font][/size][/QUOTE]
I'd say the X-Men have the best rogues gallery of the Marvel Universe. But yeah, that's because to me most of the villains you mentioned above seem quite lame. Especially the "crooks" like Rhino, Scorpion, Mysterio, Electro, Shocker, etc. And Kingpin at this point [i]is[/i] a Lex Luthor wannabe in my eyes. Luthor has become quite cool over the last few years.

[rata]

I used to buy the comic and I was really into it, but when the movie came here I couldn't buy it anymore (I couldn't subscribe from where I live), but I got a lot of spidey comics, and the best comic for me is The amazing spiderman, it beats by a lot peter parker spiderman and the ultimate spiderman isn't as catchy as the amazing spiderman.
My favorite saga til now is the one with Ezekiel the old spider guy. If I could buy it again I certainly would.
BTW up there u forgot tomention venom, carnage and remember that the thing that makes spider man a cool character is that he has a life outside of his suit, for instance in the Amazing spiderman he teaches science in a school, not like batman and most dc superheros that spent all day in their suits searching for villians, as a matter of fact have u ever read a full comic about batman just being Bruce Wayne?

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='rata']BTW up there u forgot tomention venom, carnage and remember that the thing that makes spider man a cool character is that he has a life outside of his suit, for instance in the Amazing spiderman he teaches science in a school, not like batman and most dc superheros that spent all day in their suits searching for villians, as a matter of fact have u ever read a full comic about batman just being Bruce Wayne?[/quote]

I think Venom is the coolest Spidey villain. I also agree that Spiderman is more interesting because Peter Parker actually has a story as well. But that story seems to me too much like a WB series for high schoolers. Batman and Superman are different. They can't have lives outside their costumes, and that is made painfully clear in most Batman comics. If he could, he would. Same goes for Superman. But I don't think their comics are missing that element.

Still, I have read a Batman comic that's just him being Bruce Wayne. It was cool, and you'll find it in the Bruce Wayne: Fugitive Vol. 3 collected edition.

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]Well, currently, I don't like Amazing. It's not that the Ezekiel storyline was bad, but...well, it's been three years, and JMS still hasn't wrapped the story up. He gives hints, then never follows up on it. It's a bit maddening. Also, I was personally disgusted with the wasting of Amazing Spider-Man #500. It should have been so, so much more than it was.

And, of course, Peter's friends and family are some of the best part of the book. I actually wish they were used a bit more than they currently are. I mean, all we generally see are MJ, Aunt May, and...well, that's it....

In Spectacular, though, we get more of Pete's friends, as opposed to his family. It's a nice balance.

I also love Venom, but his character was screwed over in the ninties when they tried to make him a hero. Yeah....Check out The Hunger, or Ultimate Spider-Man vol 6 for some kick arse Venom stories.

Oh, and I hatehatehatehatehate Carnage. [/color][/size][/font]

[Pagan]

[QUOTE=DeathBug][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]

I also love Venom, but his character was screwed over in the ninties when they tried to make him a hero. Yeah....Check out The Hunger, or Ultimate Spider-Man vol 6 for some kick arse Venom stories.

Oh, and I hatehatehatehatehate Carnage. [/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE]


What's so bad about Carnage? He is the uncontested most powerful villian in the entire comic series. He dusted the floor with the Spidey on their first encounter. It took Spider-Man and Venom's joined effort to beat him, and they barely defeated him together. He also has one of the best background stories ever while Venom is just Eddie Brock the angry employee. As you can tell he is one of my favorite characters only rivaled by Electro and Hobgoblin.

[Manic Webb]

While I like Spider-Man, there's one group of villains I don't particularly like; the Goblins, green and hob. I don't know, but the trend of "death, new goblin, death, replacement, new goblin, death, resurrection, death, new goblin, new goblin, death, resurrection, death" makes it sounds just [i]a tad[/i] over-done. If I were Peter, I would've quit for the simple fact that I was tired of meeting new villains named Goblin. I mean, exactly how many people have either been the Green Goblin or Hob Goblin?

That's the only villain(s) I have any gripes with. Other than that, Spidey has some of the least campy villains in the Marvel Universe.

The 1990s animated series is possibly the best animated adaptation of Spider-Man. Mainframe's CG Spider-Man had excellent animation, but the stories lacked a little. If those two shows could be combined, you'd have one hell of Spider-show. Take the older one's stories and designs, and the newer one's voice acting and animation-- and there you have it. Because let's be frank; the CGI show had some of the best animated action scenes this side of the Marvel Universe, and the 1990s show had sub-par acting. Some say the new show's acting felt flat and monotone, but it still wasn't as choppy or campy as any show before it.

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]Funny thing about the Goblins; for all the people who have claimed that title, who are the current Goblins? The originals. The reason Marvel kept changing them on us is that, no matter how much they tried, the second-tier Goblins just couldn't hold a candle to Roderick Kingsly and Norman Osborn.

Harry Osborn, by the way, was doomed to die as soon as he first became the Green Goblin. This started the cycle of "Become Goblin because of trauma/stress-have Peter talk him down". That got old pretty fast, and errode him as a character. If he hadn't become the Goblin, he might still be alive today.

The reason i hate Carnage is that he's all style over substance. Why is he a villain? He's always just been a villain. He was created when Marvel made the incredibly stupid move of trying to make Venom a hero. And, to be such a "Cool villain", he's never hit Spidey close to home.

Think about: Venom threatened Mary Jane and hung out with Aunt May right in front of Peter, the Hobgoblin used up Ned Leeds and threw him away like a disposable razor, Doctor Octopus killed George Stacy, the Green Goblin's hit Spider-Man cllose to home so many times it's not funny anymore. Yet, for being a serial killer, does Carnage ever kill [b]anyone[/b]? Yeah, he kills extras.

Basically, in the end, all Carnage is going to do is fight, then get beaten and re-captured. So, that's why I hate him: he was created to screw with Venom's character, hes' all style over substance, and he never does anything of importance. Oh, and because of "Maximum Carnage"; that story sucked so much, even the Marvel editors hated it.[/color][/size][/font]

[rata]

Well Carnage isn't that cool, but the Ezekiel thing was the best Ive seen in spiderman comics in a while, the mj story is just I dunno not so interesting, can u tell some of the new stuff that goes now please the last issue I bought was #502 of the amazing spiderman.
Thanks anyway.

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE=rata]Well Carnage isn't that cool, but the Ezekiel thing was the best Ive seen in spiderman comics in a while, the mj story is just I dunno not so interesting, can u tell some of the new stuff that goes now please the last issue I bought was #502 of the amazing spiderman.
Thanks anyway.[/QUOTE]
[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]I'm afraid I haven't been reading Amazing since issue 500, so I couldn't help you. I got bored with the Ezekiel storyline because it dragged out far too long. I mean, it's been almost three years since Ezekiel was introduced and they [i]still[/i] haven't solved the mystery, and don't seem like they're going to for a while. In my opinion, no comic mystery should last over two years. I mean, this thing's taken longer to sort out than the Clone Saga!
[/color][/size][/font]

[Omar Harris]

As far as my opinions go:

Carnage has and always will be nothing more than a Venom-wannabe. This just goes to show you how the "grim and gritty" era of comics should have never existed.

The 90's sucked as far as comics go. At least we got Venom, the best Spidey villain, in my opinon, out of the deal.

I prefer Batman and the X-Men's villains to Spidey's. The villains aren't bad, but come on...Electro should be a heavyweight and not some bank robber (meaning they should take cues from the Spidey 90s cartoon and Ultimate comics). Norman Osborn should have stayed dead (unfortunately, Marvel is notoroious for ressurecting people when their deaths were meaningful). Doctor Octupus: He's a psychotic Roger Ebert in the comics. Kraven the Hunter? Let's not even start on him. Alot of his villains are cool (the Lizard, Venom, the Rhino, the Kingpin) but others (Morbius, Carnage) should just go.

Unfortunately, Marvel has gotten into the bad habit of ressurecting almost every dead comic in its inventory, which means I'll probably convert to a DC fanboy for a while (I mean come on, they just signed several of the best writers in the industry to exclusive contracts for at least a year). Which means that like the 90's, expect to see 100 useless Spidey comics (and one or two good ones) on the shelves every month.

Brian Michael Bendis is a good writer. Ultimate Marvel comics is a bad idea. (This is why comics should stop getting themselves wrapped in their own continuities)

Spider-Man the movie ruled. Nuff said.

Spidey 2 will probably rule. Nuff said.

J. Michael Strascynski needs to finish Rising Stars. Nuff said.