Lucifer/Two Fallen Angels

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i]
[B](they fall into the same category as devils, right? :toothy: ).
[/B][/QUOTE]

As far as I know there is no difference whatsoever, except the "devils" you refer to are Satan's angels, who fell from grace. They're still angels though. "Angel", in biblical terms, tends to refer the being in question being one of the heavenly beings, [i]not[/i] an "angel" in the definition of being something innocent, that is much used today. (You probably know that.. but just for the sake of those who don't..)

[GinnyLyn]

If you haven't read [i]Many Waters[/i] yet, anime_gurl, here's some of the characters that might interest you:

the NEPHILIM (the bad guys that took human wives and plotted man's fall from God):
Ugiel the Lavender--can turn into a cobra
Naamah the Black--can turn into a vulture
Rofocale the Red--mosquito
Eisheth the Green--crocodile
Eblis the ?Emerald--dragon/lizard
Estael the Brown--cockroach
Ezequen--skink
Negarsanel--flea
Rugziel--worm
Rumael--slug
Rumjal--red ant
Ertrael--the rat

the SERAPHIM (those who work to gently sway the humans from the nephilim and try to win the nephilim back as well):
Alarid the Silver--pelican
Adnarel the Bronze--scarab beetle
Aariel the Tawny--lion
Abasdarhon the Golden--cobra
Abdiel the Golden--bat
Akatriel the MoonBlue--owl
Abuzohar the White--leopard
Achsah the SoftGrey--mouse
Adabiel the Orange--tiger
Admael the White--camel
Adnachiel the Yellow--giraffe
Aalbiel the SnowWhite--goose
(It should be noted that there is a snake in each group, which lends for the retribution/redemption factor; also, all seraphim in this book seem to have names starting with "A".)

I strongly recommend you read the chapter "Adnarel and the quantum leap", when the nephilim and seraphim speak to each other after their transformations.

There are also unicorns, mammoths, time travellers, and a half bred human/Nephilim in the story. Thoroughly enjoyable. Not Bible accurate at all, but it does touch on some themes that this very thread has brought up about questioning God for His actions. Again, go read if you can.

And show us the manga when you get done. ^_^

[Semjaza]

The Bible (Old Testament) makes it seem like a couple hundred angels revolted against God originally (it only names like 20 that aren't named elsewhere), and then Revelations says 1/3... so what, there are less than 1,000 angels in Heaven at the time? Seems like a rather low number heh.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina [/i]
[B] I don't personally think God planned the fall of mankind or Satan, or any of the angels. He knew it was going to happen, but that doesn't make it a part of his plan. I believe the plan (for restoration) came about as a result of the fall, rather than the fall being a part of that plan.[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think that he planned it either... but my answer to that was in regards to why even keep Satan around in the first place, and I'm very much lead to believe that the whole reasoning for his existance (or simply the writing of these parts in the Bible) at this point would be to balance things out and allow mankind a decision between good and evil (if things were even that clear cut). That's all I was meaning by that.

I personally, based on things that happen and are in the Bible, don't think God is/would be omniscient... which is why I said "supposedly" because this is something people like to argue.

Those verses you provided would have to be taken extremely literally for me to think that God didn't know what was going on. By asking those involved what happened, I think God was giving them a chance to tell the truth and, guess what, they simply didn't. That of course resulted in his anger. I don't think, based on everything else in the book, that he was simply unsure of what was going on. I suppose it is possible (and I'm simply making this up to explain it) that God isn't omniscient when it comes to actual sins committed, which would explain why he questioned sins in such a way.

As for Sage, you mentioned some of them... There are basically 9 main types, referred to as "choirs", although there is another that doesn't seem to get mentioned much (and might actually be the Cherubim, but I'm not sure - they have simliar duties).

In order - Seraphim, Cherabim, Ophanim (aka Thrones), Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels and lastly Angels. I'll write what they are, but that's the list heh.

[b]Seraphim[/b] - The angels closest to the throne of God. There are a few different descriptions on their appearance. Mostly that they are angels with four faces and six wings (two covering their face, two on their feet and two for flying). They are also described as "burning fires of love" (which symbolizes their pure love for God) that no one, not even angels, can look upon because of their intensity. Seraphim included Seraphiel, Metatron and Michael. I forget the name of the fourth.

[b]Cherubim[/b] - Second to the seraphim, and holders of God's wisdom. They were the ones sent to earth for most of God's tasks... The annunciation of Christ for example. They also were placed at the gates of Eden once Adam and Eve were cast out, where they guarded the path to the Tree of Life while holding large flaming swords.

How cherubim look is somewhat confusing, because of all the paintings and sculptures of them later on. People would construct giant animal like statues and place them to act as guardians to temples and so on, but the I don't think the Bible ever refers to them as such (they are shown as guardians on the Ark of the Covenant though, which might have lead to that). They don't look like childlike cupids. I've seen books show them as massive animal like creatures with human faces... but basically they are just the standard looking angel with 4 wings.

Chiefs of the Cherubim included (I don't remember them all lol) Ophaniel, Cherubiel, Raphael, Gabriel and Satan (well before he left). I have no idea why Satan was looked so highly upon in Heaven when he was simply a Cherub. I have no idea why he was portrayed with 12 wings while there either, as Cherubs have 4 and Seraphs have 6... Oh well lol.

So Satan and Lucifer are different things from what I can tell. Satan was an annointed Cherub, and was actually basically God's personal guardian. Of course, God himself doesn't really need a guardian, but he has chosen to administer things through his creations rather than himself. Lucifer is more of a mistranslation than anything... but they are equated as one like I said in my other long post lol. I guess honestly at this point in time, it doesn't even matter if you consider them the same.

However, I will admit that there is plenty of argument saying that Satan and Lucifer are in fact the same being, despite what I have said. The main argument being that they basically did the exact same things and felt the exact same way. Neither were created evil, both were considered God's most beautiful creation and so on (if you go with the idea that they are both actually angels). I personally just side with the idea that they are two very different beings because I think everything points to that. So really, I guess you could go either way because there is no 100% fact proving one or the other.

It gets confusing because the name Lucifer (originally a mythological god) wasn't even applied to Satan until St. James' Bible was made based on translations my St. Jerome even earlier. Lucifer is a Latin word, not a Hebrew one which makes its existance makes even less sense. The original Hebrew books don't even make mention of anything called Lucifer, it was always Satan or that king I mentioned (I think he was kind of Tere or something). So really, it's more of a mistranslation than anything. There isn't an actual Lucifer. Satan never changed his name, it's just what he became known as due to mistranslations (which originally, like I said, were speaking of an ancient fallen king).

This link involves Mormonism (although mentions very little about it), but I think it is one of many places that tells the reasoning behind what I am trying to say rather well - [url]http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml[/url] Basically that the name Lucifer was applied to something very different than Satan himself, and through many centuries began to be equated as one.

[b]Ophanim[/b] are also called Thrones, but they were more like charioteers around God's chariot. Their wings were all joined to eachother, and they could not turn when they travelled - they simply looked forward. They also had four faces; one of a man, and 3 of animals. They are looked upon as the angels of peace and submission.

[b]Dominions[/b] Jewish legend says that the success of a nation is decided by the Dominions, which are part of the guardian angels. They wear long robes and hold a golden staff in one hand and the Seal of God in the other. They also regulate the other angels, letting them know the will of God.

[b]Virtues[/b] are also known as "the shining ones" and are in charge of nature itself. They also are the angels of miracles and courage and are generally depicted when one is struggling with his or her faith. I have no idea on their apperance, but it seems as though they would look like a traditonal angel. They are [i]always[/i] in a group (at least two) and never alone.

[b]Powers[/b] were the first angels created by God. They are responsible for keeping the world safe from demons and keep our souls safe. I've also read that they are thought to lead people up into Heaven when they die. Again, I don't know how they look.

[b]Principalities[/b] protect religions and guard nations They were also considered to be the guardians over the nations and the leaders of the world. They are more or less "princes." They are described as soldiers usually.

[b]Archangels[/b] are well known obviously... In command of messages to men from God, as well as the armies of the angels. They are constantly in battle with the fallen angels. There are seven main ones (perhaps that is all, but I'm not sure about that) which include Uriel, Michael, Gabriel and Raphael.

And lastly, [b]angels[/b]... They are the ones closest to humanity.

There are various angels for various things... Angels of planets, seasons and so on. Certain ones you pray through for other problems, and so on.

As for the 10th type, I don't know what group they are in, but they are referred to as Scribes. They most likely are part of another order/choir of angels, but I've never seen it said which one they were in. They preside over the Celestial Court and write down the experiences of mankind into the Book of Judgement, which will be read aloud during the final days. There were three that were chosen for this task I think, but I don't know if they were ever named.

So that should help some, I suppose heh.

As for your book, Ginny... why does it say the Nephilim are the ones that took human wives? That's not how it worked lol. It sounds like an interesting book though... I'd check it out, but I'm afraid it would start confusing me between stories and the actual writings and legends lol.

Edited for something I wrote totally wrong and getting rid of a lot of repeated points heh.

[Sara]

[size=1]Actually, there's a verse in Genesis, just before the story of the Flood, that says the Nephilim took human wives, and their children were the great heroes of the age.

And I have to agree with Ginnylyn, [i]Many Waters[/i] is definitely worth a look if your interested in "Christian Mythology."[/size]

[Semjaza]

I am confusing them with all the Watchers stories I guess... heh. The thing is, the Nephilim aren't angels (good, evil or otherwise) and the Watchers are... so I was mixed up a bit there. Seems odd to call them that. Ginny's description makes it seem like the author gave the Nephilim the role of the Watchers almost, so hmm heh.

I don't really understand how they could be heroes while commiting some of the bad acts they did (such as cannibalism)... but I guess, like with anything, there were good and bad ones.

I am going to Borders tonight, I'll have to check it out.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B][size=1]Actually, there's a verse in Genesis, just before the story of the Flood, that says the Nephilim took human wives, and their children were the great heroes of the age.

And I have to agree with Ginnylyn, [i]Many Waters[/i] is definitely worth a look if your interested in "Christian Mythology."[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

I could have sworn it was the other way around.. but then, in my Bible it never even mentions the word "Nephilim".

However the KJV says:

"Genesis 6:

1 When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them,
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose.
3 Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."
4 [b]The Nephilim were on the earth in those days[/b], and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown"

In that version it never really says who the Nephilim were, only that they were around...

Verse 4 is also translated in a different version of the KJV as:

"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

A great number of translations have translated the word "Nephilim" into "Giants", whereas, as I said earlier, the true translation is close to "demons".

In the message translation the verse reads:

"This was back in the days (and also later) when there were giants in the land. The giants came from the union of the sons of God and the daughters of men. These were the mighty men of ancient lore, the famous ones."

Which is clearly saying that the Giants (or Nephilim) are the offspring of the "sons of God" (some translations say "heavenly beings") and the human women.

Other translations read:

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown."

"The children of the supernatural beings who had married these women became famous heroes and warriors. They were called Nephilim and lived on the earth at that time and even later"

"There were giants on the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men who were of old, men of renown."

"In those days, and even afterward, giants[1] lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with human women, they gave birth to children who became the heroes mentioned in legends of old."

(Footnote: 1: Hebrew [i]Nephilim[/i])

So after cross-referencing various translations it can be clear that when some only say "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them" what the actual meaning is, is that the Nephilim are the children of the "sons of god" (or heavenly beings, or supernatural beings) and human women, rather than the ones who took the women for brides, or just beings which happened to be around.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i]
[B]It gets confusing because the name Lucifer (originally a mythological god) wasn't even applied to Satan until St. James' Bible was made based on translations my St. Jerome even earlier. Lucifer is a Latin word, not a Hebrew one which makes its existance makes even less sense. The original Hebrew books don't even make mention of anything called Lucifer, it was always Satan or that king I mentioned (I think he was kind of Tere or something). So really, it's more of a mistranslation than anything. There isn't an actual Lucifer. Satan never changed his name, it's just what he became known as due to mistranslations (which originally, like I said, were speaking of an ancient fallen king).[/B][/QUOTE]

If you look in new translations from the original hebrew like the NIV (New International Version) and GNB (Good News Bible version), you won't find any mention of the name "Lucifer". And as I said, these are translated directly from the original hebrew (or greek, as the New Testament may be) rather than an earlier translation... which kind of illustrates your point

[Semjaza]

Thank you for finding all those verses. My main problem is that I tend to combine all the various translations and legends together and such. All of what I know about the Nephilim says basically what you've just provided here. It seems like most of the other thoughts on them are legend, and I'm not sure of the exact roots. Lucifer and Satan are totally interchangable at this point, but I tend to focus on Old Testament writings and such, so I thought it was good to differentiate.

In terms of this manga... It depends on if you are concentrating on Old Testament or New. If you are going to somehow put the war between God's angels and the fallen angels, then I think it's an important point that it was always Satan. However, if you are going to stick with the New Testament, you can just stick with Lucifer because any mention of that name by most anyone today is referring directly to Satan anyway.

So I guess it's up to you heh.