Lucifer/Two Fallen Angels

[eleanor]

I'm making a manga to enter a contest, and I need this bit of information. I know that in the Christian religion, Lucifer (Satan) fell to Hell after rebelling against God, leading 1/3 of the angels. I've heard that with Lucifer, there were two other main leaders that followed Lucifer. Does anyone know who they are?

[Guest cloricus]

Let me just rewrite this whole thing...
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Lucifer has 7 different names, each of which represents one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Some people believe that they are actually different demons. Lucifer - pride; Mammon - avarice; Asmodeus - lechery; Satan - anger; Beelzebub - gluttony; Leviathan - envy; Belphegor - sloth; - FallenSeraphim (A quote from a friend I asked)

Baal is a short way of saying Baalzebub or Beelzebub. (If you were wondering.)

So I'm sorry but I don't think there were ever any names mentioned for what you?re looking for.

Eps - Mmm info.

[Change]

It's Ba'al I think (Hebrew). If you want some really interesting stuff I will send you a link the the Apocrypha, I found a site that has all of it translated.

[Pressure]

[color=purple][size=1]If you want to do this right, but don't want to go through all the trouble of researching the information, as there are thousands upon thousands of books.. Then go straight to the one person who has read them all.. And knows more about Satan, than (more likely than not), Satan knows about himself..

DeathKnight[/size][/color]

[Semjaza]

The Apocrypha has been translated for who knows how long... that's hardly new and it's not exactly difficult to find. It's still part of some versions of the Bible, and others include it as a seperate entity.

No matter what you're doing, I suggest checking that group of books out though. The stuff on the Watchers especially. In fact, it's where I got the name Semjaza Azazel from in the first place. I love reading that sort of stuff.

[Mei]

[color=green]I really don't know much about the Devil as we could call him, but I know he rebeled against God, wanting to take over Heaven himself, causing eternal damnation(pardon my language there, it needed to be used though>>) for himself and his followers. I, personally, am Christian, so I do believe all that.Oo I also believe that the devil is one whom tries to corrupt humans souls, minds, judgement, and hearts...Anyways, All the information already here is great, but also I would suggest checking the book of Revelations, in the Bible, it has quite a bit in there.Oo*really doesn't see why you would want to do something on the devil.*[/color]

[eleanor]

Doing a manga about Heaven and Hell had always fascinated me a bit, Mei. ^_^ But, yeah, I guess it's wierd. Hmm, well thanks for the help everyone.

[GinnyLyn]

But to answer Ginny's question, there's no other two leaders (that I can recall) that fell with Lucifer. He went down and took 1/3 of the angels with him.

And let's not turn this into any religious debate please. I know no one's starting yet, but that always needs to be said in a religious topic (unfortunately).

EDIT
Do you need to anything about the angels with God? Ya know, Gabriel, and Michael and those other ones. ^^ *is blushing about lack of memory at moment*

[eleanor]

I was sure that Lucifer and two other head angels that followed him....oh well.

[Justin]

I can't think of any two fallen angels that any more mentionable than any of the others. I'll let you know if I come across anything, though.

-Justin

[GinnyLyn]

I do recall reading [i]Many Waters[/i] by L'Engle, and there was talk of the seraphim (good angels) and the nephilim (bad angels). Give it a read. I wouldn't say it's Bible-accurate, if that is what you are reaching for, but it can definitely help in the development of your manga--as long as you don't copy the story. ^_~

[Kent]

If I was you I would read a book, or poem I should say, that I very much enjoyed called "paradise lost" by john milton.

Its old and really a difficult book, but totally worth it with this sort of stuff in mind.

I also wanted to mention that I have seen many, many, places where the term satan directly translates to the term "enemy."

But yeah, if your interested in this go do some paradise lost research.

It tells the story of the devil being cast out, planning his revenge with his "generals" (If I can call them that) and continues onto the story of adam and eve.

It is a great epic poem and a really good book for those interested in theology.

Written in the 1600's it is hard to understand at times, but footnotes in a good copy can take care of that no problem.

Also if your interested in these subjects of heaven and hell, there are dozens of other books, but one book that has influenced our ideas of an afterlife (christian wise) would have to be "the inferno" by dante.

This book is a series of three books called the "divine comedy" in which dante tells the story of a "purgatory."

Go check this stuff out, because with the subject of your manga, you will probably want to know all you can about where souls go, what happens to them, who the devil is, and what happend between him and god.

So to recap...

Starters for really getting into this stuff are...

the bible
paradise lost
dantes inferno

All will help you greatly, unfortunatly, by the time you finish those, you might have lost interest in the manga all together...:D

Sorry.

But good luck.

[Semjaza]

A few things.

Satan and Lucifer aren't the same being. They are two totally seperate fallen angels. They are equated as one because of a misreading in the Old Testament.

Satan was an archangel and an annointed cherub. Satan was one of the princes of the Nine Celestial Orders, Chief of the Cherubim, and in charge of the Order of Virtues.

Satan is a bit of a confusing thing honestly. Instead of the standard 6 wings, he had 12 (angels in the forms according to the Old Testament honestly scare the crap out of me lol). He was also created on the 6th day of Creation, according to some things I've seen. His purpose was apparently to test man, although God set him some specific limits.

Lucifer himself is basically the first fallen angel (although it is believed the name was applied to a falling king rather than an angel - so it becomes confusing), although there are angels before him that have done non-angelic things (as in, bad lol). He basically was removed because of his pride and hatred (maybe malice is a better word). However, the Old Testament never makes a single mention of "fallen" angels. The terms for that originate in the New Testament.

Satan is the one that basically got jealous of God's power and love for his human creations, Adam and Eve. Everyone knows the story of the garden of Eden and the snake's temptation... it went from there. It was basically farther than Satan was supposed to go. From there came the revolt.

For me, the revolt is very confusing at times. There are many aspects to it, and I have a very hard time figuring out what order they came in... but this is the summary.

I don't know if it was a 1/3 of angels... but a couple hundred were involved in the revolt against God. The Book of Enoch (which is in the mostly removed Apocrypha) names some of the more important ones.

Then comes the Watchers (aka Grigori, but Watchers is easier heh), which I mentioned earlier. They look like giant, silent humans. There are two types, good and "evil," both of which reside in different Heavens (there are various levels according to Jewish legends).

The evil ones are the ones that lusted after human women (ALL angels were male, despite the most angels being portrayed as female in our culture). Cheif among them was Semjaza-Azazel (although I've seen him listed as two angels - Semyaza and Azazel - he is apparently one entity and the main problem among the Watchers, and the one who lead them down... [b]so if anything, Semjaza-Azazel (or Semyaza and Azazel if you prefer - like I said, depends on what I read), are two of the main angels to side with Satan's plans... although I'm not exactly sure if they were directly involved with eachother. (I bolded this because it should answer the original question heh).[/b].

[Something related to this ... One of the evil Watchers/Grigori is known as Satanil. I'm not sure if he is Satan himself, or another].

There were children conceived, known as the Nephilim. These are also somewhat confusing because there is so many contradictory things written about them. I've read that they are four faced giants (a human head, lion, snake and hawk if I remember correctly). I've also read that they were simply giant versions of humans that lived rather peacefully... and lastly I've read that they lived on the flesh of humans and each other, effectively being the first "vampires" (I am not clear if they were always like this, or only [i]after[/i] God sent his angels to dispose of them).

Anyway, eventually came down to earth and got involved with women (as I said above) and taught men various things. Among them: war, makeup (apparently war style makeup mostly), blacksmithing (weapons and armor), magic, medicine and abortion. However, some of the other angels complained (I believe the archangels) to God. Apparently these "secrets of Heaven"were not to be known. The Nephilim were mostly slaughtered as they were simply not supposed to exist. The angels involved (including the angel Semjaza Azazel, among others) were banished and imprisoned in the sky and earth, where they will remain until the Apocalypse where they will recieve their final judgement like everyone else.

The confusing thing about the Watchers in general is that I'm not sure of their exact roles. They are more or less included in the revolt, but their reasoning for being in it seem so much different than Satan's. I'd assume that the angels and the Watchers had an overall massive battle though. Anyway, they are all known as fallen angels now.

It is important to note that the early Church denounced all of this, with the idea that angels cannot have intercourse with humans.

They were banished to the earth... although like I said, the Watchers were supposedly imprisoned in the and earth (sky and sea too if I remember right) itself awaiting judgement. There's argument on weather or not Hell is actually inside the earth or in another level of Heaven (and Hell itself even has many levels).

So really, if you want to get the full story... you have to read very many different aspects of this from a few different religions, many of which contradict eachother. There doesn't seem to be any account of what happened that is held higher than the others. There are so many books to go through, highly religious and otherwise.

I recommend something that speaks of Jewish lore, the various levels of Heaven, one of those books that deals specifically with angels and devils... as well as Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno.

Anyway, I hope all of this is of some help. At any rate, I hope this shows that my username here wasn't simply picked because it has lots of z's :p

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Edit - Some other important things. Lucifer is also part of ancient mythology (Roman and Greek), where he originally gets his meaning of "bearer of light." He was son of Aurora, the goddess of dawn. I'm rather sure that the Jewish/Christian version of Lucifer is based on him.

Azazel is also part of ancient mythology. I forget which, but he was a Pagan got that had sacfricies offered up to him. He is depicted as a half human, half goat (much like Satan at this point). Again, they aren't the exact same beings, as they are from totally different religions. I have a hard time differentiating at times, as things aren't clear as to wheather Semjaza-Azazel and Azazel are the same or totally different.

[Guest cloricus]

Wait up...

God under today definitions is an "all mighty being" who is above everything, [i]everything[/i]. This was mainly brought in to curve the people leaving the church because god just didn't make sense with what we know today. (Earth not being the centre of the universe, even that there is a universe and all. Yes I know the Jews knew that but the English didn?t until recently.)
Now if god is above this, and Satan (and Lucifer, who from what I know are one?) is only an angel. Then what is all this about the divine struggle against the powers of good and evil?

God has already shown he will wipe out anything at anytime of his (it's) choosing. (The Nephilim is a good example of this.)

So why doesn't he just wipe out the devil and all his crowd?

^ I'm not asking this as a flame or [i]anything[/i] like it, I just want an honest informative answer.

For people who aren't following where most of this is coming from you must remember that when the original bible was put together out of the numerus books they had to leave a lot out for shear size, and they also left out a lot that "didn't fit in with the faith".

Eps - Ceh!

[Semjaza]

God more or less imprisoned Satan.

Satan symbolizes a choice, or human's free will (which technically Adam and Eve gave everyone, despite people saying it was God's "plan" all along)...

So we are presented with choices because of this free will. The choice between good or evil, the choice between loving God and hating him (and of course all the various gray levels in that).

I will say that the Bible itself never really gives an answer (basically you aren't supposed to question it, because it is simply God's way heh), but I think that is the most likely explanation based on everything I've read about (in simple terms, because I could go on about it forever otherwise lol - nothing is ever that black and white).

Honestly, this all can be argued to death because God is supposedly omniscient (which brings questions like - so why couldn't he forsee these things, or deal with them instantly?)... so I don't think there will ever be a real answer to it.

The typical Christian response to it simply will not appease people who ask it in the first place lol.

[TheShinje]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i]
[B]God more or less imprisoned Satan.

Honestly, this all can be argued to death because God is supposedly omniscient (which brings questions like - so why couldn't he forsee these things, or deal with them instantly?)... so I don't think there will ever be a real answer to it.

The typical Christian response to it simply will not appease people who ask it in the first place lol. [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=darkblue] God does see the future, he then tells the future to his prophets, who tell the people.

God predicted the rebirth of Israel in the Mddle East, Wierd El Ninion like weather patterns in the end times, and An increase in knowledge and travel in the books of Revelation and Daniel.

Now, if you're asking why God doesn't just speak to us and not go through human flesh lol, the answer is in exodous I believe. The jewish populous wandering in the desert would fear being struck dead by the lords mighty voice, So the prophet system was implemented.

As for the topic question, the Bible doesn't recount two other head angels falling with Satan, or Lucifer, Depending on which way you read the rebellion. It says in revelation that 1/3 of the angels in heaven fell with him. [/size][/color]

[Semjaza]

I am not asking anything heh.

I already know the reasoning as to why. What I said was all in response to what Cloricus asked and I gave the opposing viewpoint to what I was saying. It was rhetorical, not some questions I was actually bringing up because I didn't understand. It was just adding credence to the fact that these types of questions simply just go in circles.

Besides, I wouldn't know all that stuff I spent all that time typing up and not know that :p I do appreciate the input though :)

Edit - Added more for clarity.

[conpiracymonki]

[b][size=1]
Hoi everything just became more confusing for me o.-

In Islam, we don't have a lot of this stuff going on.
For us, Angels are obedient creations of God: full stop. They don't 'fall', or rebel against Him. According to us, Lucifer wasn't an Angel. He was a Jinn, which is an altogether totally different type of being. Like the Bible though, we believe that he was highly ranked among God's creations, until his pride and arrogance made him rebel. He was outcast, along with his followers of a lot of the Jinn.

So we don't have any Nephilim or anything.

And for us, Satan and Lucifer are the one and same.

And as far as we're concerned God doesn't predict the future, He knows it; He being outside of time, having created it Himself.[/b]

A different look on it all for ya, anime_gurl
^_^'

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EDIT: I posted just so that anime_gurl could get a little different source for her manga. I didn't post to make this a religion topic again. Just to keep my intention clear.
*points to Ginny below* ^_^[/size]

[GinnyLyn]

Tiptoe carefully--I will not have another religion discussion blown out of proportion here. (Already got one thread doing that, groan groan.) The moment I think it starts bashing, I will not hesitate to whine and tattle to some Mod, so there. (Oooo...) Seriously, though, let's keep a flipping open mind instead of turning this into another "all Christians are dumb" thread.

My understanding is that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same. Lucifer was his first name, and he was a gorgeous angel, with all this decoration and whatnot. Well, he wanted to be the one in control, and God didn't like this, natch, so Lucifer and all his followers were banished. Lucifer then called himself Satan, to distinguish between the good him he was, and the evil one he is now.

As far as why God doesn't prevent all the bad stuff--well, the thing is, everything happens for a reason and according to plan. Fact is, though, I'm human, and I'd be lying if I said I have never wondered why he prevented Satan from falling and tempting Adam and Eve in the first place. (All you non-Christian types better stop that frellin' cheering about my wondering--if we were to know everything God does, we'd be God, so get over it.)

Meh, world peace is meant for one world, not for everyone's view of the world.

[Semjaza]

Like I said (in less words), it originates from a misreading of Isaiah. The word "devil" was used to desrcibe Lucifer when people who studied religions identifed him with the falling start in the verse from Isaiah. Then Lucifer and Satan became interchangable.

Honestly... There is obviously a difference between Lucifer and Satan in Heaven. They had totally seperate roles when they were up there. I don't really think Lucifer would simply don the name Satan so people weren't confused... Satan's role is to mostly confuse, trick and lead people astray in the first place, so I doubt he'd care heh.

I really am not surprised that people don't really believe what I'm saying, as it goes against basically anything people have been told in general... But that's how it works out if you read upon many aspects of it.

As for your paragraph about why God doesn't do something about all that... I basically agree with you. Like I said, it's one of those things people really aren't just supposed to question in a sense. If you have faith in this sort of stuff, you're just supposed to trust in God's ways really.

Personally, I'm not a remotely religious person and I kind of follow a combination of various religons and philosophies I feel are right... as such I don't really have an agenda with any of this stuff, I am just presenting what I have read and studied up on personally.

As such, I hope this doesn't turn into a religious debate myself... as that's definately not something I want to happen. This sort of stuff just interests me.

Edit - Added some and cleared things up a bit.

[GinnyLyn]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i]
[B]...as such I don't really have an agenda with any of this stuff, I am just presenting what I have read and studied up on personally.
[/B][/QUOTE]

You don't know how much I appreciate that. 99% unbiased info from a person sans an agenda. A welcome change. *soft smile* I can never be that, but at least I can learn about other cultures without feeling like I'm gonna be stomped on for my own.

Moving back to thread, heh...anime_gurl, will this manga bear any resemblance to Ah! My Goddess? I've never seen/read the thing, but I was just wondering. Not that I'd know the difference. ^^;

[Semjaza]

Heh, works for me :)

The funny thing about this thread is that the main reason I got into all this stuff in the first place was to make a comic heh. I even have several pages drawn up.

Of course, that was years ago... The comic is mostly dead (although I still want to bring it back), but I still read things concerning all this. It's amazing some of the stuff that is brought up because of it.

Anyway, goodluck with your manga anime_gurl. Hopefully what I wrote didn't confuse everything totally hehe.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]God has already shown he will wipe out anything at anytime of his (it's) choosing. (The Nephilim is a good example of this.)

So why doesn't he just wipe out the devil and all his crowd?[/B][/QUOTE]

I have no idea, personally.. That's a good point, which I've wondered before.. and it's one of the things that you really can't question (in terms of, you can look into it but it's hard to find an answer, not in terms of "you have to accept it")

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]For people who aren't following where most of this is coming from you must remember that when the original bible was put together out of the numerus books they had to leave a lot out for shear size, and they also left out a lot that "didn't fit in with the faith".[/B][/QUOTE]

From my understanding, a few of the books that were rejected weren't simply rejected for not fitting in with the beliefs of Christians at the time, but because a lot of those that would have been in the new testament (not the old) were written by churches to fit in with [i]their[/i] personal way of doing things, and they made stuff up to fit into what they wanted to be said.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i]
[B]Satan symbolizes a choice, or human's free will (which technically Adam and Eve gave everyone, despite people saying it was God's "plan" all along)...[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't personally think God planned the fall of mankind or Satan, or any of the angels. He knew it was going to happen, but that doesn't make it a part of his plan. I believe the plan (for restoration) came about as a result of the fall, rather than the fall being a part of that plan.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i]
[B]Honestly, this all can be argued to death because God is supposedly omniscient (which brings questions like - so why couldn't he forsee these things, or deal with them instantly?)... so I don't think there will ever be a real answer to it.[/B][/QUOTE]

OK.. there are two verses I can think of off the top of my head where God either appears less than omniscient. The first is Genesis 3:9-13

"But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate.""

Now, just because God asked the man (Adam) where he was, and what he'd done, that doesn't mean that he didn't know himself.

In order to illustrate this, I'll draw on the second verse, Genesis 4:9-10

"Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
"I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground."

Again, God asks Cain where his brother was, the same as he asked Adam where he had gone. But in this case, Cain doesn't answer the question, but instead says he doesn't know. But God doesn't persist to ask, or even ask "did you kill him", because he already knew, as can be seen by the fact that he says "Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground", despite the fact that Cain never admitted to killing Abel.

In the same way, God already knew what had happened in the Garden of Eden, but he asked Adam simply so that he may confess that he had done wrong. And that's a key element of the faith even today. When you do something wrong God doesn't come down and say "You have sinned" in a big, bold voice, but allows us to confess to him instead.

I've also heard someone say that the fact that God asks where Adam is is symbolism of the separation between God and man at the time of the fall.. but I dunno much about that.



By the way, I know you weren't actually asking a question, but I just had to answer anyway ;)



with regards to the actual topic.. I don't really know a great deal about the whole Satan/Lucifer thing, except a lot of people seem to believe they are one and the same.

The Nephilim are kind of interesting though.. in Genesis is talks about the heavenly beings (or the angels) taking human brides, and the Nephilim were the offspring. That word is generally transliterated into "giant", but apparently the original meaning is closer to "demon" (I think).

There are a few people that believe that the Nephilim are what we see as UFOs today (apart from the ones known to be frauds.. heh), mostly because the account of people who have apparently been "abducted by aliens" is [i]remarkably[/i] similar to old accounts of demonic possession.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree on any of that UFO stuff, but it's interesting to think about.

[Guest cloricus]

"We must question the story logic of an all power god who creates faulty humans and then blames them for his mistakes." - Unknown.

I believe that fits in perfectly with that you just said.
(I'm applying the faults to Eve and Adam and them eating the apple. God's mistake is letting Satan "lose". But the quote works well for most of the bible.)

Then again when you look at it, I get the feeling that it fits in quiet well with the bible. Makes a complete story, I get the feeling that if there is a God it is part of his plan.
(AHH I?m sounding religious? It's just an observation, honest!)

One fact I can say is that the bible says it's 1/3 of all angels/

Eps - Hehehe.

[Sandy]

Hey, this is quite interesting...

I've always fancied the mythical side of religions, so if I may, I would like to use this thread to get me some more info about the ANGELS(they fall into the same category as devils, right? :toothy: ).

The Bible tells very little about the archangels and different types of angels, so I'd like you people who know more about them to tell me about them.

Now here's what I'VE learned:
The seven archangels according to tradition are: Michael, Gabriel, Rafael, Uriel, Uzziel, Hazdiel and Shamdiel. Are these right, because I don't think they are...
The different types are: Seraphim, Ophanim, Cherubim, and what else?

Please, I LUST to know! :D