The State of the WWE

[Shinmaru]

Since the other WWE topic is pretty much D.O.A, and since I miss posting about wrestling, I've decided to try and revive some of the wrestling conversation here on OB.

Basically, this thread is for any thoughts, rumors, general misgivings, etc. about the WWE and wrestling is general. So, let's have fun and enjoy the thread while it lasts, shall we?

I think the WWE has been improving steadily over the past few months, RAW in particular. RAW used to be a cesspool of awful wrestling and horrible storylines, but the whole show has been far more intriguing as of late. The overall wrestling has vastly improved and the storylines are much better (especially the stuff with Jericho, Christian, Trish and Lita - I'm interested in seeing where all this ends up).

Smackdown, after a slight dip following the fantastic Iron Man match, has been improving, as well. Some of the more underused superstars are getting much more time as of late, which makes me happy. While the storylines may not be up to snuff, the wrestling more than makes up for it. Over the past few weeks we've seen some great matches, including two in one night from Chris Benoit (I thought I'd never be able to type that sentence, heh).

Of course, there are some problems, the biggest stemming from the WWE's horrible misuse of Matt Hardy. I mean, he's [i]this close[/i] from exploding into superstardom, but he is continually held back. Matt has been virtually non-existant on RAW since his trade and that fact is very disappointing to me, since I'm a big fan of Matt's.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]I think that RAW is getting better slowly. I?d like to see some more face time for Y2J, Booker T, and Matt Hardy and less time from Eric Bishoff and Mark Henry (whose only saving attribute is Teddy Long). The story lines seem to be progressing fair enough, I am glad the belts are changing hands and that Evolution is finally getting some good spotlight. Randy Orton has progressed into quite a wrestler and I really enjoy watching Jindrak and Cade. I do think they misuse some of their talent like Goldberg and Matt Hardy, but I think there has been a vast improvement over the past four weeks or so.

I don?t get to watch Smackdown! all that frequently but when I do I really enjoy the wrestling aspects of the show; they defiantly have RAW beat talent wise. I?m glad they are giving Cena and Benoit some face time, Cena is such a great mic man and Benoit is such an incredible athlete that it is nice to see they are getting recognition. The only complaint I have about Smackdown is that they aren?t making good use of Sean O?Haire, who could be an incredible talent if given the chance.[/color]

[Guest The Narcissist]

I've been a fan for 13 years and this is pretty low. However I do agree it is slowly getting better.

[TheShinje]

I'm quite happy with the State of the WWE at the moment.

I don't get to watch much Raw (the last one I watched was Kane being dumped in that dumpster of fire by Shane McMahon) but I do get to watch lot of Smackdown, and that's the show that I like the most.

John cena, he is an incredible talent on the mic, his raps and the way he disses out his opponents are awlays a treat to see. When I first noticed cena, he was a heel, bu he has since tunred face, he works well as either a heel or a face, which is a sign of true talent.

Trpile H would be my favorite Raw superstar, he is incredibly talented in the ring, and has good mic skills, I feel that triple H works best as a heel, I'm not sure wther he's heel of face at the moment, simply because I don't get to watch much raw at all.

Does anyone know why they split the talent up into Raw and Smackdown? I think it worked better when it was everyone agaisnt everyone.

[Gokou Alpha]

If I had to rate WWE to it former competiton or former self. This WWE has a long way to go. The only brigth spot is the return of the Rock the other night. Truely Electric.

[Shinmaru]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Shinji Ikari [/i]
[B]Triple H would be my favorite Raw superstar, he is incredibly talented in the ring, and has good mic skills, I feel that triple H works best as a heel, I'm not sure wther he's heel of face at the moment, simply because I don't get to watch much raw at all. [/B][/QUOTE]

I think Triple H is killing RAW more than anything right now. He's still a decent wrestler (though, he's not nearly as good as he was before his quadricep injury) and he's decent enough on the mic, but he's got such a stranglehold on the World Heavyweight Championship that it's made the entire thing incredibly boring.

Consider this: this past month, Goldberg embarked on a mini-feud with Kane used to build up the title match at Armageddon. I found this mini-feud far more interesting than anything Triple H has done this year, because it was a breath of fresh air for the title scene. Triple H had his hand in just about everything having to do with the World Heavyweight Championship and it's really ridiculous.

Also consider the fact that Triple H hasn't wrestled a full schedule in God knows how long and he hadn't wrestled on RAW in months, yet he was rewarded with the World Heavyweight Championship at Armageddon over more deserving opponents. I don't want this degrade into a "Triple H is in with the McMahons" thread like so many other threads on other boards have gone, but it does make you suspicious.

Other than that, though, I think the other titles are being handled well. Ric Flair and Batista make an interesting team and hopefully they'll be able to make the title scene more interesting than the Dudleys did. I also think that Randy Orton is a good choice to be the Intercontinental Championship, because you can see that he really tries when he wrestles. Even though I love Rob Van Dam, he's really been mailing it in lately. This is especially noticable when you look at his recent efforts on RAW and compare them to his fantastic match with Orton on Armageddon. But that's enough complaining from me...it's not like I'm a better wrestler than RVD. lol

[sublime1]

All I can say is that I am happy with the state of the WWE. The storylines a while back almost made me stop watching wrestling altogether. Nowadays the themes and matches have been quite entertaining. I would also like to say that I would like to have Stacey Kiebler's baby... Is that even possible for a dude? I think not. You see where I'm goin' with this.


once again,

-innuendo rules-

[Pagan]

The attitude era is dead and now it reminds me of WCW in its last days with all of its stables(groups). The matches are all so boring and longer then ever not to mention repetitive. Smack Down's WWE title has bounced between the same three people:Brock Angle, and Big Show. Raw is trying so hard to be exciting and entertaining that is just seems way to desperate. They have brought back superstar after superstar to try to get the fans back into it. There are some good new and good old ones though like Matt Hardy, John Cena, and of course Brock Lesner .

I blame all of the WWE's problems on the Brand Extension. Tag teams that we had grown to love were broken up like Edge and Christian and The Hardy Boyz. New teams have arrived that no one seem to like or care about like La Restrante or the Bashom Brothers. The absence of the hardcore title has greatly weakened the rosters by adding people into places they don't belong. Al Snow should be wrestling not annoucing(though he is good). There is a army of people who are trying to find there place in the WWE. I must admit that the main events of Raw have gotten alot better but Smackdown needs to really work on their's because the Strecher match just can't beat the Elimination Chamber. The miss managment of character has also brought about a decline. Rey Mysterio should be used alot better then he is all he does is pop up once a month and lose on a major match. I really do think Beniot deserves the title shot way more then Hardcore Holly in my opinion. Hardcore is very deserving but Beniot eats, sleeps, and dreams about the title and needs it after all he has been through.

[UnsungHero]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Heaven's Cloud [/i]
[B][color=indigo]I think that RAW is getting better slowly. I?d like to see some more face time for Y2J[B][/QUOTE]


Dude me to.
But if you've been watching Y2J is slowly turning Face. He declined a Round Two of Battle of the Sexes against Trish because he was concerned about her :smirk:
He even tried to track her down and apologise. I think next Season of Raw we will see Chris Jericho turn Face once more and once again have Trish as his manager.

BTW if Y2J beat both Rock and Austin for the Undisputed Title then how could somebody like Edge beat him !?!

As for Booker T I HATE HIM. Stupid freak!

Chris Benoit needs more attention - it seems to me that the WWE have forgotten about him.
Of the two Franchises Raw shits all over Smackdown!
Overall my favourite wrestlers are Y2J, Benoit, Rock, Matt Hardy.

HBK SUCKS!!!!

[Shinmaru]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by UnsungHero [/i]
[B]As for Booker T I HATE HIM. Stupid freak!

HBK SUCKS!!!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Hating on two of my favorite wrestlers, eh? Not cool :p

But, yeah, I think Booker T. has been lagging it a bit since he returned from back surgery. Give him another week or two to fully get back in the swing of things and Booker will be himself again (and I hope he uses the Scissor Kick less often - a bit unrealistic, heh).

And, in my opinion, HBK has been carrying RAW for a couple months. Since Y2J hasn't been getting the air time he really deserves, it's been up to Shawn Michaels to really do the dirty work and make the other wrestlers look like gold in the process. Shawn has had some great matches over the past few months and even you must agree that his performances at Survivor Series and Armageddon were phenomenal - more proof that Shawn Michaels is the greatest wrestler in the history of the WWE.

[Charles]

As long as the WWE markets itself towards casual viewers instead of satisfying its diehard fan base the product will suffer. Their philosophy is that their dedicated fans will invest in the product no matter what. Instead they opt to attract [i]more[/i] fans such as the people flipping through the channels, or football fans displaced when the season ends, for example. Because they're not necessarily trying to please those of us who tune in every week, it's natural that they generate the same repetitious segments week in and week out.

Let me explain. I'm an experienced wrestling fan; I've watched it for years. Due to my familiarity with it, I can easily foresee how things are going to go. It's obvious to me who's going to go over in a match. The cruiserweight is rarely ever going to get a rub from the larger stars. Triple H is going to win. The Dudley Boyz are going to do the same [b]boring[/b] spots they've been doing for years. Surprise tag team partners are no longer a big surprise. I know that that referee is going to get knocked unconscious by a glancing blow only to magically come to just in time for the heel to take advantage of underhanded tactics. I was [i]certain[/i] that something was going to happen to prevent Foley from wrestling Orton last week. I know that when someone comes running out with a chair during a match and the announcers say "Oh yes! It's time for some payback," the guy is going to hit his own friend and join forces with the enemy to "surprise" us. I've especially grown fond of how every wrestling promo for stipulation laced matches repeats the stipulations a dozen times because of the average viewers' attention span or lack thereof.

I've also grown tired of tag team matches on Raw--especially in the main event. Six man tags in substitution of singles feuds just aren't exciting anymore. Anyone familiar with World Championship Wrestling during its prime knows that [i]they[/i] knew how give the fans a main event. Most of the main events on Raw aren't exciting anymore--not in the least. Rarely do we ever see a [b]clean[/b] match air in its entirety--especially when Evolution is involved in any capacity. Which is a shame really. I remember when Randy Orton worked his program with Shawn Micheals. It was incredibly important that HBK put him over properly. Instead, the finish saw Orton scoring the pinfall thanks to a pair of brass knuckles. Jim Ross himself was careful to emphasize "Randy Orton didn't beat Shawn Micheals, the brass knuckles did."

Which brings me to my next point: rarely do older stars put the younger ones over properly--on either brand. It's not necessarily the older stars to blame either. The booking team and/or Vince McMahon are just set in their ways. They're afraid to try innovation. It's a critical flaw, one that's costing them as we speak.

Contrary to my tone thus far, I believe that WWE is more enjoyable and in a better situation than it has been in recent memory. It has a wealth of breakout young talent on the cusp of stardom. I've been high on John Cena since he adopted the rapper gimmick. I've told people that he has the potential to be the next Rock. Contrary to many of WWE's older stars, he appeals to today's demographic. The same thing could be said of former star Jeff Hardy. Other guys like Christian, Matt Hardy, Test, Spanky, The World's Greatest Tag Team, The Bashams, Paul London, Batista, Orton, Maven, Cade, Jindrak, Shannon Moore, and La Resistance are starting to emerge. Well, at least in my eyes as far as presence and match quality go. To be honest, however, many of the guys on that list are far from getting the time of day with the WWE right now.

Matt Hardy is one of those guys. I was very disappointed when he switched brands. I understood his desire to do so; he wanted to be with his girlfriend. What can you expect?

But, if this guy was being misused on SmackDown, it's obvious he's not going to emerge on Raw as a main event player--[i]despite[/i] Micheal Hayes being one of the bookers. The roster is just too saturated on the Raw brand right now. And that's a crying shame. He has an endless wealth of potential. Guys like RVD have even given up--they've admitted as much in interviews.

Despite WWE programming being better recently (with great surprise returns that cater to the fans), this problem will ultimately persist. They need to invest time and effort into these younger guys. I'm tired of Triple H, Undertaker, and Stone Cold Steve Austin (and he's not even an active wrestler!) lol

Although Triple H deserves acclaim in the industry, he's preventing so many good things from happening. For example, WWE was building a champion vs. champion angle for Goldberg and Lesnar for Wrestlemania XX. With Triple H having defeated Goldberg, much of the steam for that match will be evaporated--if it even happens at all. The world title just doesn't mean anything to me anymore. I'm not even frustrated with Triple H being champion. I've just lost interest completely. To be blunt, I doubt I'll even follow angles involving Triple H.

Now that I've rambled on for so long, I'll sum it up. WWE is in a good position because some of its younger guys are starting to make it. We're seeing interesting angles, such as Jericho/Christian and Trish/Lita (I predicted this one was well) and we're also seeing more of these younger stars get matches on pay per view cards. They liven things up.

Plus, the WWE has done fan-friendly things, like bringing back Foley and Rock.

On the negative side of things, their programming is stale and a lot of the responsibility for generating entertainment is placed on the shoulders of the wrestlers [b]in the ring[/b].

The WWE is also stuck in its ways with who it decides to put over and how they do it.

Their last big flaw is their inability to utilize talent correctly. RVD, Matt Hardy, Booker T, Hurricane, Ultimo Dragon, Eddie Guerro and Chris Benoit (who faces the FBI on SmackDown) this week are but a few of the many who could be handled better.

I've actually scored pretty good (floor level) seats for the Royal Rumble. So that should be a lot of fun. I just need to come up with some cool signs. Thus far I'm thinking about:

1) Push Triple H
2) Push RVD you Goddamn morons
3) I just wet myself
4) OtakuBoards
5) (written on back) I bet you can't see past my sign.

[Shinmaru]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charles [/i]
[B]1) Push Triple H
2) Push RVD you Goddamn morons
3) I just wet myself
4) OtakuBoards
5) (written on back) I bet you can't see past my sign. [/B][/QUOTE]

Heh, hope you have a good time at the Royal Rumble, Charles. At the very least, the actual Royal Rumble match should be good. As for what sign you should bring...touch choice between #2 and #4 (don't bring #1...the WWE might take you seriously lol).

Yeah, the issue with younger stars being put over is a big problem, especially after The Rock left and Kurt Angle has been injured. Angle and Rock have been more than willing to put people over and make them look incredible, but both of them have been seen sparingly in the past few months.

Shawn Michaels is the only superstar I see really putting people over and even [i]he[/i] gets a few wins he doesn't need (like his win over Randy Orton a few weeks ago on RAW). If the vets aren't making the younger guys look good, then who is? Nobody, that's who.

[Oukan05]

My brother and I have been huge wrestling fans since the year of 1997. That was the time we didn't have cable; and WWE (which use to be called WWF) always came on at midnight.

Now, I think that Raw is War is improving rapidly. Smackdown is alright, but my brother loves it. I'm so glad the Mick Foley is back. He's been a hardcore favorite.

The first wrestler I know that's been a hero to me was Stone Cold Steve Austin. That Texas Rattle Snake is the man. Every year when Raw or Smackdown would come to where I live, my dad would always buy either three or four tickets. I would ask. Raw is the coolest event to go to.

Also, a month or two ago, me, my brother and two friends went to Survivor Sreies. Boy, it was so cool. It was our first time ever going to a pay-per-view event. I can't wait for the next time.

WWE ROCKS!!!!!!!!

[UnsungHero]

Oh well, can't wait for the Ruthless Aggression Tour 2004 in Australia.

YEEHAWW!!!


HBK pisses me off for many reasons.

1) His intro: "I've got the moves, you know I'm sexy..." yadda,yadda,yadda.
Dude, he's not hot.

2) Age
The guy trots around in his homo tights like he's half his age.

3) Comparison
Anyone remember when HBK took on Triple H on PPV?
WTF!?!?!
How can he stand up to one of the biggest men I've ever seen?

4) Chest hair
Do something about it man!

5) Wrestlemania XIX
Anyone watch his gay entrance with the stupid confetti bazookas?
Y2J should've have one. Jericho was dominating the whole match. Where did he pull all that stamina from?

6) Retirement
He's done his dash and I'd like to see cool new talent coming in.


It's over Shawn, give it up!

[Oukan05]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by UnsungHero [/i]
[B]HBK pisses me off for many reasons.

1) His intro: "I've got the moves, you know I'm sexy..." yadda,yadda,yadda.
Dude, he's not hot.

2) Age
The guy trots around in his homo tights like he's half his age.

3) Comparison
Anyone remember when HBK took on Triple H on PPV?
WTF!?!?!
How can he stand up to one of the biggest men I've ever seen?

4) Chest hair
Do something about it man!

5) Wrestlemania XIX
Anyone watch his gay entrance with the stupid confetti bazookas?
Y2J should've have one. Jericho was dominating the whole match. Where did he pull all that stamina from?

6) Retirement
He's done his dash and I'd like to see cool new talent coming in.


It's over Shawn, give it up! [/B][/QUOTE]


Oookkk....he may not be the "gotta love that man" guy, but he's the greatest wrestler I have ever been a fan of. Sorry for being mean, but my brother happens to be a Shawn Micheals fan; and he worships his existance, music, moves, appearance, and attitude. I respect that. And sure he should retire, but as a true wrestler, one must go for as long as he/she can until it's time to call it quits. Truefully, he lives; end of story.

"Sorry for that tone of mines; I'm a big fan of him. Heck, for the first time in my life I saw him (not face to face) in person at the ring when he made his first appearance back in Raw. It was everybody's dream come true. So, don't discriminate; ya hear?":therock: :therock:

One more note, I'm glad he beat Jericho at Wrestlmania XIX (19); I, however, can't stand him. If your a Jericho fan; I respect that too. I mean it!

And also, that match between Micheals and Triple H, "That was freakin awsome man!!!!! HBK ROCKS!!!!!:cool:

[Charles]

I don't agree with that at all--but it's just my opinion. I'm positive there are copious amounts of people who believe HBK should retire. I'm just not one of him. From where I stand, he still has a lot to give to the business. He?s both entertaining and capable of positively influencing the younger talent.

Personally, I'm thankful for every match I get from Shawn Michaels. HBK is one of the most charismatic, taleneted individuals to ever lace up a pair of wrestling boots--and I think he deserves credit where credit is due. His storied career is nothing short of inspirational.

Since returning, he's delivered [b]numerous[/b] unforgettable performances. I bought SummerSlam 2002 and Wrestlemania XIX on DVD [i]just[/i] for his matches alone. He came back from a career-ending injury and wrestled how a legend should wrestle. He managed to defy age and injury. When Michaels got back into that ring, he didn?t go through the motions and tarnish his reputation. He [I]wrestled[/I].

Which brings me to this point:

[quote][b]5) Wrestlemania XIX
Anyone watch his gay entrance with the stupid confetti bazookas?
Y2J should've have one. Jericho was dominating the whole match. Where did he pull all that stamina from?[/b][/quote]

I was disappointed that Jericho didn't win; but not so much so. It didn?t ruin the match for me. Did Y2J [I]really[/I] desperately need the rub? I don?t think so. Jericho is one of those special individuals who is able to get over on his charisma and presence alone. He's similar to The Rock, in that respect. Losses don't have much of an effect on him. Furthermore, HBK did eventually put Jericho over on Raw.

But all that doesn't even matter in regard to the point I?m trying to make. You're quick to criticize HBK for trivial things, like the entrance choreography prior to his Wrestlemania XIX match, while failing to recognize the brilliance of the match itself. I don?t know what you were watching, but the match I saw easily stole the show. If you didn't appreciate the efforts of both men involved, I don't know how you can even begin to call yourself a wrestling fan. There was no domination on either side. No man carried the other. It was a back-and-forth old school wrestling match where each man contributed equally. Y2J and HBK complimented each others? styles nicely. To be honest, it's something I'd like to see more of.

So, yes, Michaels is notorious for not always doing the right thing, but I still respect him because I know he's one of the best--ever. And he?s welcome on my television screen as long as he desires to be there.

[Guest Inuyasha7575]

I dont like the fact your hating on HBK the man is old but he is a great wrestler who still has a few years left in him if you want someone to leave get rid of Ric Flair I really think he is out of his prime and it is about time for him to leave the WWE Raw.

[Shinmaru]

I'd have to disagree with that, too. Even though Ric Flair obviously can't wrestle to the degree he was able to in his prime, he remains a valuable asset to the WWE.

First of all, Ric Flair can still cut a damn good promo. I've not seen Flair cut a bad promo since I started watching wrestling again last January; he's easily one of the best promo men in the business today.

Second, since Flair is such a credible legend, he can give rubs to people who need it. The WWE has already used Ric Flair to help get over Randy Orton and Batista, two major players in RAW right now.

Lastly, Flair can still have an occasional gem of a match. His match with Triple H earlier last year on RAW was one of the best free matches of the year and his match with Shawn Michaels at Bad Blood (I think) was a great match, as well. Flair's body is incapable of putting on consistently great matches but by no means is he fully incapable of still being a great wrestler.

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Inuyasha7575 [/i]
[B]I dont like the fact your hating on HBK the man is old but he is a great wrestler who still has a few years left in him if you want someone to leave get rid of Ric Flair I really think he is out of his prime and it is about time for him to leave the WWE Raw. [/B][/QUOTE]

To add to what Shinmaru has said, the tremendous sales of Ric Flair's DVD (which I bought myself) also signal his overwhelming popularity and value to the sport. I suggest it to any wrestling fan; I can promise you you'll have new found respect for Flair after seeing it.

Plus, although I'm annoyed when Flair is put over guys like Eddie Guerro and The Hurricane, the WWE mostly uses him as a heel manager as opposed to a wrestler. So it's not really that bad.

And yes, his promos are incredible. I'd love to have the ones from the night in Greenville when he challenged Triple H. Both the motivational one with Shawn Micheals and the one where he fired himself up against Triple H. What incredible vignettes.

[JC Goodwin]

] Me i LUV the WWE and i could agree that its just gettin better especially smackdown with the change of GM Paul Heymen. Im really glad that Bob "Hardcore" Holly is gettin a title shot at the rumble cause he is definately one of the most underrated superstar and he has been for years. But what i really want to now is their any edge Heads Or Fans OF Edge out their cause he is my fav wrestler and i want to see him with the wwe title. Also all this talk bout micheals lets say in my opion he is the greatest eva :D

[IMG]http://email.wanadoo.co.uk/webmail/download/Download.html?IDMSG=129&PJRANG=2&NAME=banner1.gif&FOLDER=INBOX&STREAM_TYPE=IMAGE[/IMG

[XxmagentaxX]

The WWE has gone to hell in the past year or so...
I miss the way it used to be... It kinda died with the Stephanie/ Triple H marrige and the baby that wasnt.. grr that pissed me off

[Shinmaru]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charles [/i]
[B]And yes, his promos are incredible. I'd love to have the ones from the night in Greenville when he challenged Triple H. Both the motivational one with Shawn Micheals and the one where he fired himself up against Triple H. What incredible vignettes. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'd just like to mention that those two promos were huge examples of how great promos can be when used to the fullest extent...they build immense anticipation towards the match, they provide storyline progression, they're well acted and they're just memorable. Both of those promos are definitely among some of the best promos I've ever had the pleasure of seeing and are examples of Ric Flair at his finest. Flair is the master of putting other people over while maintaining his own credibililty.