Gavin Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 [SIZE="1"]Guys, can we please stop this argument where those who don't believe religious belief is a valid argument for disagreeing with assisted suicide, we get into this in any thread where religious beliefs form one side of an argument. No they can't prove God exists, that's why it's called [I]faith[/I] or [I]belief[/I], but that doesn't make it any less reasonable to them than it is to you. By the same token, Lethargy there is absolutely no point in saying something extreme like "So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?", because it isn't something that simple. Nothing in life is black and white, everything is a shade of grey and you can only work from there. All of you who haven't should go visit an terminal cancer ward some time and ask the people there they're opinion of it. Because right at this moment, not one of us has the right to give an opinion on this subject.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaryanna_Mom Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Guys, can we please stop this argument where those who don't believe religious belief is a valid argument for disagreeing with assisted suicide, we get into this in any thread where religious beliefs form one side of an argument. No they can't prove God exists, that's why it's called [I]faith[/I] or [I]belief[/I], but that doesn't make it any less reasonable to them than it is to you. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]You've lost me hun, no one has gone off the deep end as far as arguing over that in this thread yet. So I'm curious as to why you think people are acutally arguing when most if not all of the conversation going on here has been polite.[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]All of you who haven't should go visit an terminal cancer ward some time and ask the people there they're opinion of it. Because right at this moment, not one of us has the right to give an opinion on this subject.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]I would have thought watching her grandmother suffer before she finally passed on was more than enough for SunfallE to give an opinion. She doesn't need to visit a terminally ill patient she knew one personally. And while I'm here, why are some of you trying to deny part of why something like this is such a controversial topic? The belief or not belief aspect? You've honestly lost me here since other than a few comments everyone has rationally explained what they believe and why. You can't toss out an argument saying it's up to God when we die and expect people to say nothing. Or to toss out things about gravity and expect others to accept it as a valid comparison. They are part of what make something like this such a difficult thing to discuss and I for one am not interested in taking the conversation and stagnating it because it brings in aspects that can be problematic. Those issues are core to the problem of assisted suicide in the first place. So I'll be equally as blunt, could you please stop expecting people to pretend they have no belief or disbelief when stating what they think on an opinion? That's equally as annoying as the other part. Anyway... In the end even though I think it's wrong, like many other issues that are controversial, I don't think I have the right to make that decision for someone else. It's up to the person who is suffering in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horendithas Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 [COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Guys, can we please stop this argument where those who don't believe religious belief is a valid argument for disagreeing with assisted suicide, we get into this in any thread where religious beliefs form one side of an argument. No they can't prove God exists, that's why it's called [I]faith[/I] or [I]belief[/I], but that doesn't make it any less reasonable to them than it is to you. By the same token, Lethargy there is absolutely no point in saying something extreme like "So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?", because it isn't something that simple. Nothing in life is black and white, everything is a shade of grey and you can only work from there.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]Gavin, so long as people are being polite and rational with their responses I am not going to restrict the method in how they choose to discuss this issue. And to be frank, A_M is correct, why people agree or disagree with Assisted Suicide does revolve around religion. Or lack of, and not one of the comments here has been a true argument or warrants a warning for them to be more civil. So lets stop with the statements of no arguing religion, as well as the sweeping statements that not believing means you approve of killing. And most of all, quit trying to expect others to not explain why they don't accept another person's stance. And that goes for more than you. If this were to change to a [I]I think it's wrong[/I] or [I]I think it's okay [/I]only thread, it would be extremely boring at that point. People are mature enough to handle a little bit of disagreeing as well as staying out of a discussion if part of it annoys them. Lets save the[I] end the argument speech please[/I] for when it really happens and not before. [/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retribution Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE] [font=Arial]Logical fallacy. In any event, I think if the person is in a sound state of mind (i.e. not psychotic/insane) then they should be allowed to take their own life. After all isn't it [i]their[/i] life? Who are we to dictate when someone should die, save for that person? I mean, if I were in excruciating pain and required a morphine drip to prevent myself from going into shock, I would want to have the ability to take my life as well. I'd be livid if some holier-than-thou idiot told me otherwise. It's preaching from a pedestal.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChibiHorsewoman Posted August 17, 2007 Author Share Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"] All of you who haven't should go visit an terminal cancer ward some time and ask the people there they're opinion of it. Because right at this moment, not one of us has the right to give an opinion on this subject.[/SIZE][/QUOTE] [color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]I'd just like to appologize for the tone of my post ahead of time. Gavin. I'm a hospice aide. I have to go to work and deal with death and dying on a regular basis. I have one lady right now whose nurse didn't give her past Wednesday. Today's Friday and I saw her from 0900-1100 EST It wasn't pleasant because I have to drip 30MGs of MORPHINE under this woman's tongue and help her swallow. Her daughter or I have to do this EVERY HOUR. And we have to give 10MGS then help her swallow, wait five minutes then give her another ten until it's all gone. Then an hour later it's the same rutine (can't spell today) Also from the end of February to the end of March I [i]had[/i] a sweet older gentleman with rectal cancer. He had a morphine drip and a patch on his back just so he could lay in bed and be repositioned without too much discomfort. I also had a woman with bone cancer back in January and it near killed me to watch her husband trying to help me care for her because one morning she could hardly move to sit up she was in so much pain and he started crying. And finally my grandmother died last year from Stomach cancer which after being diagnosed rapidly spread to her kidneys and liver. She spent her last weeks in hospice also on morphine just so she could be comfortable. So SunfallE my heart goes out to you. So don't assume to tell me that I don't have the right to give an opinion on this subject and ought to go to a terminal cancer ward. I do time enough in simular situations on a Monday through Friday basis which is why I started this thread in the first place.[/color][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James P. Galvatron Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Yes but he isn't saying that your not qualified to tell us Chibi he is saying that when you yourself are in the pain would you truly want to feel that knowing that their is no hope no chance of life the only thing awaiting you is pain. Your morality tells you that its wrong but when faced with that pain that situation and you are the one in it are you sure that you would not ask for it to stop. Its one thing to see another person going through it even if its one you love its another when that person crying and begging for the end is you. I believe that we die when its our time but who is to say when our time is I don't leave everything up to a higher power there are people who put everything on their God's shoulders they rarely do anything for themselves they don't realize he isn't going to make all your decisions for you all your choices sometimes they are yours to make, and yours to choice whether you live or die and if you fail or succeed. I think that my own decisions determine how I die and my genetics if you die in a car wreck from drunk driving or from a drunk driver you died yes because it was possibly your time but also because some took their life in their own hands and made a bad decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retribution Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 [font=Arial]Long time no see! :) [quote name='Inuyasha7271']Yes but he isn't saying that your not qualified to tell us Chibi he is saying that when you yourself are in the pain would you truly want to feel that knowing that their is no hope no chance of life the only thing awaiting you is pain.[/QUOTE] Err... I'm not sure that's what Gavin's saying. What I think he meant to say was that we are not qualified to talk on the subject, as we do not understand the situation adequately. To be frank, this is ridiculous. Go ahead and ask these terminally ill patients if they would like to have [b]the option[/b] to take their own life. I almost guarantee you will get a unanimous yes. [QUOTE]Your morality tells you that its wrong but when faced with that pain that situation and you are the one in it are you sure that you would not ask for it to stop. Its one thing to see another person going through it even if its one you love its another when that person crying and begging for the end is you.[/QUOTE] Absolutely right.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChibiHorsewoman Posted August 17, 2007 Author Share Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='Inuyasha7271']Yes but he isn't saying that your not qualified to tell us Chibi he is saying that when you yourself are in the pain would you truly want to feel that knowing that their is no hope no chance of life the only thing awaiting you is pain. .[/QUOTE] [color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]That may be the case, which is why I appologized for the tone. But a good portion of my work week involves hospice patients. So in some ways I am in a postion to give an opinion. Being in hospice means that these people are only given a few weeks to live and they are in a lot of pain. You can see it. Some of them can't be touched or moved without constant doses of pain killers. I know I wouldn't want to be in that type of ssituation. [/color][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 [SIZE="1"]I apologise if my last post was a little harsh, but honestly this topic is very close to home for me. Cancer is the biggest killer in my family, and I've spent a lot of time by a bedside watching someone I've known my entire life fade away because of something that is literally eating them from within. I didn't mean to infer that anyone else had a lesser understanding of it than I did, I was simply trying to say that until we are in that situation of being terminally ill, that we don't have the right to say whether or not is it right of wrong. In regard to arguing this from or against a religious point I view, I was probably unclear about that. What I simply meant was that people's views on assisted suicide should be treated equally regardless of where they come from, and that there was no black and white answer to it. I know that people have been rational and polite in regard to this, and probably I was just expecting it to go like other threads were religion collides with atheism over whether or not religious belief has any place in an argument and we end up with a lot of bad blood on both sides. And Chibi, don't worry about it, I worked on a hospital myself for a while, so I know exactly what you're talking about.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horendithas Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 [COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]I know that people have been rational and polite in regard to this, and probably I was just expecting it to go like other threads were religion collides with atheism over whether or not religious belief has any place in an argument and we end up with a lot of bad blood on both sides.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]It's understandable after all, some of the past threads have been rather explosive and ended up being closed. ;) Lately though people have been too sensible when it comes to these topics. Though now that I've said that I hope I didn't jinx it. lol Ironically, I think religion does have it's place, after all it is important to people and for some that faith is what keeps them going. Just as for me... It's more of an issue of being stubborn that gets me thought hard times. I just hope I do not end up facing a situation where I hurt enough to wish I was dead. Though more than anything, I wish we had better medicine or cures for some of the more horrible diseases out there. It wouldn't be so hard to expect them to live if we could effectively block their pain. [/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spy46 Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 thats kind of what i was trying to say in my posts, IF the person in pain was ASKING to be killed, i would say go for it so long as they are in the right set of mind. besides isnt there some thing in the bible (i dont know for sure) that said some thing like it was wrong to let a person suffer or make them suffer? any ways, lets just pretend for a moment that god was not a part of this. IF i was slowly being killed by some kind of a sickness, in the most painful way, and i was asking ANY of you to kill me to make it stop, would you do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChibiHorsewoman Posted August 17, 2007 Author Share Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='spy46']. IF i was slowly being killed by some kind of a sickness, in the most painful way, and i was asking ANY of you to kill me to make it stop, would you do it?[/QUOTE] [color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Hey Lee, you know that some people would kill you even if you weren't in pain. Sometimes I'm one of them :animesmil [/color][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spy46 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 yes but i know you love me any ways megan. :animesmil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Blue Jihad Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]Assisted suicide is always one of those topics that has too much personal belief invested into it to ever come out with a definitively "right" answer. I'm personally against the practice because as Lethargy summed up rather accurately, I don't believe it is my place to decide when I die, as it goes against my beliefs like CHW. On the other hand however, I can perfectly understand how someone would feel if they were forced to watch one of their loved ones waste away from something like terminal cancer, and the belief that it is right and good to free them from this unnecessary pain at their request. I brought up terminal cancer due to the fact that I saw my uncle die from it a few years ago, though thankfully he did not suffer before he died. In the end, it's up to people themselves to judge the right and wrong of it, and I don't think anyone has the right to try and change someone else's mind over it.[/SIZE][/quote] I know I'd off Gavin, whether he wanted me to or not. Euthanasia ftw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 [quote name='The Blue Jihad']I know I'd off Gavin, whether he wanted me to or not. Euthanasia ftw[/QUOTE] [SIZE="1"]And here I always expected you to turn up as the Reaper Alex...[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Blue Jihad Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]And here I always expected you to turn up as the Reaper Alex...[/SIZE][/quote] Just don't fear the Reaper, Gavin. You might be able to buy some more time if you play the hell out of that cowbell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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