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[color=#9933ff]Okay so last night here in the states was the one and only vice presidential debate. I was actually pretty excited to watch it because I don't know much about Joe Biden (Barack Obama's running mate) but I know enough about Sarah Palin to know that I wouldn't vote her as a Clinique Counter sales lady at Macy's (okay last night those who were in chat know I said Mary Kay, but not everyone knows Mary Kay) and now after tonights debates I still know I won't because she's just so inappropriately sarcastic and she tries to pass it off as being cute. It's not cute it's actually rude.

Well I listened to the first part of the debates because they started the same time as I was leaving for work. So for the first twenty minutes I was focusing on driving (all hail the cruise control) and just the tones of their voices. I never heard Palin directly answer any question thrown at her in those first twenty minutes. Or if she did attempt she threw maverick and how she's a hockey mom in there. Heck I think you could have started a drinking game on that debate, take a shot every time Sarah Palin says 'maverick' you'd be three sheets to the wind by the end of it.

I wasn't thrilled with the republican party before and now I'm even more unimpressed now. Biden mentioned Obama's plan for health care making it more accessable while Palin talked about the fact that they shouldn't get government involved in anything else because of how they mess it up. Okay I'll admit on this topic I'm slightly biased because right now I'm uninsured (I should have health insurance through my company by next week or so.) and I've been hearing a lot about nationalized health care (both the pros and cons) and in the long run although there are some faults in the system I think it would be a great thing to have because why shouldn't Americans have health care like the Europeans and the Canadians? It's paid for by taxes and we already pay taxes.

Okay anyway I would like to hear if anyone else has watched any of the debates. Maybe not the ones for the Vice Presidents- but I can't remember much on the first presidential debate. Maybe if you're Canadian you could talk about the elections that happen this month. I don't know. But I want to start talking about the election in here and the candidates a bit more because the US economy is in the crapper right now and I want to see if anyone sees change in the near future.[/color]
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I've watched the debates, and this entire election mess the last year or so. I've been pro Obama for a long time, but now I think he's coming off of his "Jesus" status and becoming more of a real politician with some flawed policies and views just like any other. There's also a reason why Joe Biden didn't get the Democratic nomination. He often votes right wing and that is his downfall with these hardcore democrats. However, having said that...

I cannot bring myself to vote for a ticket where Sarah Palin has any chance of being our President. We've had eight years of inadequecy and failure, I'm fed up with it. I think it's also John McCain's rampant lying that also bothers me. Now all politicians lie, Obama and Biden have extended the truth themselves on issues like their tax cut which could actually only cut taxes for 85% of Americans (not the 95% the Obama camp is claiming). But John McCain has been caught on multiple occassions of outright lying. Placating to one crowd and then changing his view 180 degrees while speaking to another.

It has been Barack Obama's history of surrounding himselves with educated and qualified people that draws me to vote for him. He has made excellent decisions throughout this campaign, and thats what we need in a president. What he lacks in experience he makes up for in the quality decisions.

None of these people are perfect, we just have to ask ourselves who will **** up the country less?
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Guest Crimson Spider
It is unfortunate that the hours I keep are too random. Right now, I am in a phase where I am pretty much going to sleep by 6:00 PM Pacific Time, and am asleep by 7:00. I was unable to watch any of the debates so far, so all that I have heard comes from extremely biased hearsay. I have heard people say that Palin Dodged too many questions, that Biden was way too angry, that Biden won the debate but Palin won the spread.


If you want my opinion on the matter: I hold very little respect for ethological appeal. Though I do think Biden would be a stronger VP, he doesn't stand for what I stand for. So if I were to vote for him, he would strongly and swiftly execute bad plans and drag the things I hold dear through the gutter with the utmost finess.

Similarly, what I had heard from the Presidential debate, the entire thing had boiled down to whomever voted for what issue at what time, or a "who kicked puppies" fight. This is also irrelevant to me, because people change their opinions and stances on everything all of the time. Unless you can undermine the reason why someone chose that stance (like the waffle-style campaigning of Kerry), then it is irrelevant. What is important is what policies and stances they are running for, and are going to enforce.

Each one of the candidates demonstrated a decent capability to run the Executive Branch. The finer points of personality, compared to the great importance of issues and stances, aren't very important.


I would comment about national Health Care, but my time is short. I will be back later.
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[quote name='Crimson Spider']
Each one of the candidates demonstrated a decent capability to run the Executive Branch. The finer points of personality, compared to the great importance of issues and stances, aren't very important.
[/QUOTE]

You can't get a accurate portrayal of reality from the politicians mouths themselves. Most news is bias (MSNBC is liberal, Fox News is conservative). It's getting harder and harder to get down to what's really going to happen if either one of these candidates is elected president. Sadly most people don't care about the issues and vote according to those finer points of personality. Check out this site. In the end they're all full of it.


[url]http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html[/url]
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Guest Crimson Spider
Personally, I get the issues straight from serpent's mouths themselves.

[url]http://www.barackobama.com/index.php[/url]

[url]http://www.johnmccain.com/[/url]


They have their plans and stances laid out there, meticulously crafted to each sound as good as humanly possible. Though it is of some difficulty, you can compare plans on education and immigration and health with each other here. No mud, no libel. Just what the serpent's tongue flickers.


Now, as I said earlier, I will get to Health Care, because I like to talk about the issues, and not who kicks puppies as a child. I will go through the hard shell of political philosophy and go straight to the creamy goodness of statistics:

[url=http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/24/4/903?ijkey=Tjqt6ve3LQZ3I&keytype=ref&siteid=healthaff] A study by Health Affairs, albeit old[/url]

Provides a bit of insight to the issues facing the American Health Care system. The U.S. already spends marginally more money per capita than any other nation. The cost of living in America is attributed to the very high prices for relatively low quality service.

If you want to expand coverage for Americans, you have one of two things: Shell out so much money it will make your pocket bleed, or try to fix the free-market system in the United States.

There were quite a few problems with Canadian and European Universal Health Care, so much that they are starting to privatize on their own. [url=http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html]See here for the details[/url]. The issue with having national health care is the set of capped prices that limit the amount of care that people can receive, and also inflate the prices of the medicine to match that standard. This causes a lack of medication and a lack of services to the people.

The United States currently has the worst of both worlds: The Big Brother Financial Aid System that inflates prices, and private sectors that are unreliable. What we get is the mess we have now, though it doesn't have every problem (note, the non-existent waiting list). What we need, since Socialist-Style Medical Care has failed, is a private system where prices are competitive, and medical supplies adjust to the medical needs from an active real-time market.


Now, what are the respective candidates policies on the issues? Amazingly, they are nearly identical in their goals, and there are only so many differences in their execution.

Obama's plan is to force companies to cooperate with the system, and fine all of the ones that don't. Also plans to use the removal of the tax cuts on the rich in order to try to pay for the expansions to the current system (all it's irrationally expensive self), while trying to force the market to decrease in price the costs of drugs through repealing a ban and negotiating. In a sense, the plan is trying to accomplish two things at once: Forcing regulation while forcing competition.

McCains plan is to encourage competition by paying the people (tax credit) to pay the insurance company, and also tries to lower expenses by focusing on prevention and personal choice. Most of McCains decisions lie in letting a market run, emphasizing competition to reduce prices and giving Consumers more information to choose amongst the competition.


Given the record of all of the policies thus far, Obama's plan to try to have your cake and eat it too will fail. De-regulation and competition have worked for countless other systems (other than credit system. Hah!), so I am going with McCain on this issue.


Now, for a personal record on Health Insurance, I don't have any. I rarely ever use medication, I look both ways when I cross the street, and I don't need to see the doctor every time I get the flu. I also do not make enough money to buy insurance and eat at the same time. If you expand Government Health Care, you essentially force me to buy insurance that I don't want, and give insurance to hypochondriacs who will cash in their chips every time they sneeze.

I don't like either candidates plan, because it comes back to me negatively in the end. However, McCain is the lesser of two evils on this issue.
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[quote name='Jeremy'][SIZE="1"][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbDUa0yMCjo"]The Debate[/URL]

I've watched the debate, and my summary is: Sarah Palin equals queef quacker[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]That would be an opinion and not a summary of said debates. And it would also be mean spirited, unworthy, and based largely on the popular zeitgeist of the day, not on any actual evidence.

If you could possibly clarify your stance with: "I think she's unintelligent and unfit to be a vice president" that would be helpful.

But since I can already imagine your stance to be the stance so many of the moderately snobbish or otherwise elitist I think I'll spare myself and say this: Sarah Palin just shot Joe Biden between the eyes and made him look a fool on national television. And did he not have it coming?[/FONT][/COLOR]
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[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]That would be an opinion and not a summary of said debates. And it would also be mean spirited, unworthy, and based largely on the popular zeitgeist of the day, not on any actual evidence.

If you could possibly clarify your stance with: "I think she's unintelligent and unfit to be a vice president" that would be helpful.

But since I can already imagine your stance to be the stance so many of the moderately snobbish or otherwise elitist I think I'll spare myself and say this: Sarah Palin just shot Joe Biden between the eyes and made him look a fool on national television. And did he not have it coming?[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Didn't you just do what you accused him of doing? Sarah Palin rattled off canned answers that had been shoved down her throat for the past week. She showed that she has had training, not knowledge.


[quote name='Crimson Spider']
McCains plan is to encourage competition by paying the people (tax credit) to pay the insurance company, and also tries to lower expenses by focusing on prevention and personal choice. Most of McCains decisions lie in letting a market run, emphasizing competition to reduce prices and giving Consumers more information to choose amongst the competition.
[/QUOTE]

There's only one problem with that plan. It would essentially eliminate health coverage from your employer, because they just wouldn't be able to buy and charge what they have been because prices would inflate. Employer provided healthcare would die. The average healthcare plan costs $9,000 a year, so that would go back into the employees paycheck, along with the $5,000 McCain tax credit, after taxes about $11,000. Sounds good if I stop there. But...

With the deepening pockets of citizens, and no private insurance restrictions whats to stop private insurance companies from jacking the price of policies up to ridiculous levels. On the positive side McCain does support the deregulation of restrictions that would allow Americans to go out of their state for health care, but thats a bit of a hassle. Deregulation is not the answer here. We need government backed insurance that is provided by private insurance companies that have goverment caps on the price of policies. That is the only way to provide universal health care.

For someone who doesn't have healthcare at the moment, the McCain health plan would make it that much more difficult to obtain a policy in your area that is affordable.
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Guest Crimson Spider
The same thing that prevents most industries from just charging as much as possible: The basics of capitalism and competition in a free market. The cheaper, more efficient policies are the ones that succeed. Employers would only be shut down if they cannot compete with the other insurance companies, and would still be able to provide insurance.

I doubt prices will inflate for two reasons. #1, McCains Government Access Plan would be a state function that would put a cap on premiums, so inflation is stopped right there. #2: Tax Credits wouldn't be enough to stop people from operating under capitalism any more than an economic stimulus package would.

The market wouldn't be completely unrestrained, for capitalism does require limits.


Now, the issue with having government-backed insurance is the government backing. The United States already spends 53% more per capita for health coverage, and is unsuccessful in having universal coverage. With the price on Health Care taking up more and more tax dollars, the government is left taking care of a problem that can be handled on a private level.

The current Health Care system needs a reform, and a reform doesn't require that the Government back it with tax dollars. It just requires a better system.
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[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"] But since I can already imagine your stance to be the stance so many of the moderately snobbish or otherwise elitist I think I'll spare myself and say this: Sarah Palin just shot Joe Biden between the eyes and made him look a fool on national television. And did he not have it coming?[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] You're kidding, right?

Sarah Palin made Biden look like a fool? Neither of them looked like a fool, but if anything Sarah Palin needs to learn how to answer questions rather than dodge them and recite speeches on things she wants to talk about.

And wow, don't bring "snob" and "elitism" into this. I don't care that she went to a bunch of community colleges, and her family has some private issues to handle. She happens to be an extreme right-wing politician who supports ideas that a lot of people don't like. If there was any relation between elitism and being against Palin, it'd be that young, educated people tend to be liberal and liberals tend to dislike Palin. [/font]
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[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]That would be an opinion and not a summary of said debates. And it would also be [B]mean spirited, unworthy, and based largely on the popular zeitgeist of the day[/B], not on any actual evidence.

If you could possibly clarify your stance with: "I think she's unintelligent and unfit to be a vice president" that would be helpful.

But since I can already imagine your stance to be [B]the stance so many of the moderately snobbish or otherwise elitist [/B]I think I'll spare myself and say this: [B]Sarah Palin just shot Joe Biden between the eyes and made him look a fool on national television. And did he not have it coming[/B]?[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff]And how was that not mean spirited and unworthy?

Govenor Palin didn't shoot Senator Biden between the eyes. She just kept shooting out the same words she's been saying for the past few months when she wasn't throwing in catch phrases. She is inexperianced at best and downright dangerous at worst. I would not want her in the White House as second in command. I especially wouldn't want her in a meeting with foreign leaders constantly winking at them like some kind of bubble head. Say what you like about Senator Clinton, at least she didn't keep winking at everyone when she was talking like she had some kind of nervous tick.

In polls alone she didn't impress most of the American people as a whole. She sure didn't impress me with the way she dodged every question handed to her because she didn't want to answer it. That was foolish.

I think Biden did a rather nice job last night at the debate and Palin didn't even come close to making him look like the fool. In my humble opinion by dodging questions, obsessivly blinking and tossing out catch phrases like 'Joe Six Pack' and another president you can drink a beer with. Sorry but I don't really want a president I can have a drink with. I'd rather have one who knows what he or she is doing.

As for the snobbish and elitist attitudes- most of my co-workers live in the city and are single mothers, minorities or just don't make that much just like me. We have some college education, but we also rely on daycare subsidies which have been cut. If that's snobbish and elitist, they must have changed the meaning.

And FYI I watched the debate on local TV and I listened to the first twenty minutes on 1180 WHAM which is a very conservative radio station.

Okay I will admit that after Senator Clinton was taken out of the running I was considering voting for McCain because he seemed very bi-partisan and had good ideas. I still like the man, I just don't like what he stands for and the same can be said about Govenor Palin. I bet she's a nice enough person (when she's not up on national TV fidgiting like a toddler that has to go potty) but I just don't agree with what she has to say. You know when she actually says it.[/color]
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to comment on the health care, no system of any kind, from any thing is 100% perfect, there always has been and always will be some thing that needs to be fixed, doesn't matter what its for.

The Canadian health care is not perfect, but it works for every one in that it doesn't matter if your bill gates, or Joe the homeless guy, you get the treatment that you need as you need it.

thats because it is payed for Thur taxes, by every one, so that every one can get the treatment that they need because not every one CAN pay $49,000 or what ever for an operation that will save their kids life because of some kind of a sickness.

our Dr's get more money for every person that they treat, the more people you heal the more money you get, the more money that your hospital/office gets for funding etc.

but the down side to our health care, is that we are short staffed and done have the amount of the equipment that a hospital should have, last time i heard, most of our hospitals only have about half the equipment that they should have and only about half the staff.

but that means that if your a Dr or nurse, and need a place to work, if your in Canada you more or less have a job on the spot, sort to speak.


from what i have heard about the American one, is that you have the staff and the equipment, but not every one is able to get treated and you end up paying out your wazoo till the end of your days if you do.
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[font=franklin gothic medium]Without commenting on policy, I will say that I did see the debate between Palin and Biden.

I was generally impressed with both candidates. I thought that Biden was about as good as I expected (although he held back a little) and Palin was clearly far better than most people were prepared to give her credit for.

She certainly showed that she lacks experience and knowledge on certain issues, but having said that, she was able to stay on-target and deliver some critical blows to Biden that he just couldn't counter. Her down-home image also probably helped.

All in all I don't think I could say that either Biden or Palin won. I think Palin's job was just to avoid sounding like an idiot. And for the most part, she did that (and actually landed some damn good blows as well - some of her off the cuff exchanges were surprisingly good).

At the very least it will make people feel a bit more comfortable with her ability to grow in the role, if she makes it that far.

So yeah. The debate was pretty interesting. I enjoyed it more than the McCain/Obama debate.[/font]
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[color=crimson]Hey I was on the [url=http://www.ksat.com/video/17613031/index.html]local news[/url] talking about the v.p. debate for like five seconds, haha.

Anyway, as I said in the video Palin didn't stumble awkwardly into the debate. This is relative to her interviews with Katie Couric and I cannot imagine in any way that she could appear less coherent. I guess she stopped reading "all" newspapers and magazines to study up on the issues, haha. She traded some good barbs with Biden but habitually drifted off topic like she didn't really care that the moderator was, well, moderating. I don't buy any of this "I want to talk about what Americans want to hear" crap either.

Biden held his ground and avoided lecturing or patronizing Palin. I saw him almost crack up a couple of times though as Palin worked her way through answers, haha. He held up Obama's positions very well and attacked John McCain through Palin without attacking Palin herself which may have been a dangerous thing to do.

Watching him choke up talking about his wife was hard to take especially since folksy, compassionate-to-everyone Sarah Palin didn't care and went straight into a talking point.

By the way, I think we've all learned this election cycle that Raiha might as well be a pundit on Fox News for her laudable dedication to objectivity and sensible positions.

Obama/Biden 08.[/color]
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[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]I had planned on watching them and it just didn't happen. Which is a shame since I usually like seeing how they present themselves to the public. Oh well. It wouldn't change who I'm voting for, unless they were beyond stupid and since both sides have their faults, I don't see that happening any time soon.[/FONT][/COLOR]
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[quote name='Crimson Spider']
Now, the issue with having government-backed insurance is the government backing. The United States already spends 53% more per capita for health coverage, and is unsuccessful in having universal coverage. With the price on Health Care taking up more and more tax dollars, the government is left taking care of a problem that can be handled on a private level.

The current Health Care system needs a reform, and a reform doesn't require that the Government back it with tax dollars. It just requires a better system.[/QUOTE]

I agree that it does require a better system and neither of these guy's plans are perfect. Obama's health plan seems to provide for those with less annual income. While McCain's plan caters to those who can already afford insurance. What we have to look at here is a combination of the two. We already have government backed insurance (Medicare, Medicaid). It works smoothly. "In 10 years, McCain's proposal would reduce the number of people who are uninsured by 2 million out of a projected 67 million, while Obama's plan would reduce the number of uninsured people by 34 million," a report by the Commonwealth fund said. Now Obama does propose we increase our overhead to pay to ensure quality healthcare. Which is already 31% higher than Canada. But McCain will introduce tax incentives to large Insurance Companies. Either way the tax payer will pay.

I don't fully believe either one of these are the answer. I believe it's going to have to be multiple phases of varying health plans until we reduce our overhead and manage to provide quality healthcare to those you can't afford it.
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[quote name='Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms] You're kidding, right?

Sarah Palin made Biden look like a fool? Neither of them looked like a fool, but if anything [B]Sarah Palin needs to learn how to answer questions rather than dodge them and recite speeches on things she wants to talk about.[/B]

And wow, don't bring "snob" and "elitism" into this.[B] I don't care that she went to a bunch of community colleges, and her family has some private issues to handle.[/B] She happens to be an extreme right-wing politician who supports ideas that a lot of people don't like. If there was any relation between elitism and being against Palin, it'd be that young, educated people tend to be liberal and liberals tend to dislike Palin. [/font][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"][SIZE="1"]It wouldn't matter if she "learned" how to answer questions instead of "dodging them" -- she was still going to get heat. Even if she did well, which she did, the left-wing talking heads were going to over-analyze her and use it against her. If she did bad they were going to take it and run with it until the election is over.

Second: how about you tell that to the MSM? I'm so sick and tired of being constantly reminded of her daughter's private matters. Honestly, why were her and her unborn child brought in to be used against her mother's stance on abstinence anyways? Just because her mother is in favor of something doesn't obligate her to think the same way. For all we know she could be a Democrat.

I don't see CNN covering those YouTube videos of the children singing praise to Obama either.

As for the debate, I think Sarah did an okay job. All I can say is that I'm thankful that they got Biden to not give an hour-long answer to every question. So kudos to Biden's advisors.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[quote name='Esther'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"][SIZE="1"]It wouldn't matter if she "learned" how to answer questions instead of "dodging them" -- she was still going to get heat. Even if she did well, which she did, the left-wing talking heads were going to over-analyze her and use it against her. If she did bad they were going to take it and run with it until the election is over. [/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms]Saying that the opposing party would have attacked Palin anyway is like saying the sky is blue. Everyone gets heat, and I hope by "left-wing taking heads" you weren't including me.[/font]

[quote name='Esther'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"][SIZE="1"]Second: how about you tell that to the MSM? I'm so sick and tired of being constantly reminded of her daughter's private matters. Honestly, why were her and her unborn child brought in to be used against her mother's stance on abstinence anyways? Just because her mother is in favor of something doesn't obligate her to think the same way. For all we know she could be a Democrat.[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] I don't speak for the MSM, what did you expect? As an educated viewer the best you can do it be the change you want to see and influence others around you to do the same.

But I laugh at the idea of Palin being a Democrat.[/font]
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[quote name='Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms]Saying that the opposing party would have attacked Palin anyway is like saying the sky is blue. Everyone gets heat, and I hope by "left-wing taking heads" you weren't including me.[/font]



[font=trebuchet ms] I don't speak for the MSM, what did you expect? As an educated viewer the best you can do it be the change you want to see and influence others around you to do the same.

But I laugh at the idea of Palin being a Democrat.[/font][/QUOTE]


No, I wasn't referring to you when speaking of left-wing talking heads. Also, I wasn't talking about Palin being a Democrat; instead I was speaking about her daughter.
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[quote name='Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms] My bad, I read that too quickly.

If there is one thing I like about Palin it's that it got so many people intereted in the presidential race again. [/font][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff]Yeah same here. Well that and that Sarah Palin makes a great Tina Fey impersonater. Or is that supposed to be the other way around?[/color]
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[quote name='Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms] My bad, I read that too quickly.

If there is one thing I like about Palin it's that it got so many people intereted in the presidential race again. [/font][/QUOTE]

She's energizing mccain's base to abandon him for fear that this moronic pawn might someday wield power.
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