Fate or Destiny

[Jesus Chicken]

What is God impotent? He can have plenty more beggotten sons and he doesn't have to send them to Earth, he can spread the message around? Well if a higher power does exist, howcome its like this, why dont I believe it? Why should I beleive in such promises when the 'holy book' that its all written in, is riddled with lies and threats? God punishes all those who don't worship him or so the bible says, so bring it on? I frankly dont care about God, I just dont believe that somwhere up in the sky a big master plan has been mapped out for us all, tahts why we have our own opinions and lawyers and people are horrible to other people. With all these things going on, believing in God is just a way for the insecure to lie to themselves about it getting better after this.

[Jeff]

there is only one begotten Son. but in all, He is God. there's only One God.

you dont believe it because your heart is hardened. it's totally up to you to make the choice though. but you should believe it because your life depends on it.

there is only two sides. good and evil. God is good, satan is evil. if you dont belong to God, you are asiding with satan automatically.

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic][color=crimson]That is the most pathetic, bigoted thing I've ever heard. Do you know why that belief is prevalent? It's merely an extension of fear. Good men fear evil men, so they try to make every one as good as possible. You can't accept that goodness, should it exist, and I personally believe it doesn't, is confined to one single entity. If a person doesn't believe in your god, yet helps people every day of their lives, your god would consign them to some kind of eternal punishment? Excuse me, but how did your church get any converts at all? I certainly wouldn't follow what appears to be a somewhat sententious whiner. Welcome to the grey world, my lost cathartik friend. It's a lot more spacious here, but you can't see where you're going. It's somewhat fogged with misconceptions, prejudice, fear, and moral indignation: jealousy with a halo. Welcome to the real world. Your black and white theory might have worked in the Middle Ages, when you could simply burn anyone who objected, but all your friendly bigots can't do that anymore... so you fall back on absolutes. Absolutes are always the last refuge prejudice takes before the holder of the belief realises he's wrong. Your dogma is exactly the pathetic self-righteousness that has killed as many people as any war you can name over the years. The followers of your god can not claim to stand with the innocent. No one can. There are no innocents. But then, morality is also an extension of prejudice and fear. They are the conscious reaction to instinctive beliefs, not any celestial rule impressed upon us.

As for my life depending on it, (I had a lot to do with Jesus's arguments, I was two feet away from him), you can bet that not only does not concern me, but if your god does strike me down, I'll join all the other matyrs out there. See you in hell.[/font][/color]

[Ravenstorture]

[color=darkgreen][font=gothic]Believing in one god serves litle purpose to many. Beating the **** out of other people's beliefs serves no purpose at all. But then again, neither does forcing your beliefs on another person, and certainly not Harlequin. Jeff, if I were you, I would focus your attention else where. Harlequin may have the capacity to respect your beliefs, but if you force this crap on him, he will hate you and you will feel the wrath of his Satan Siding Self. And me.
People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.

The last Christian died on the cross. - nietzsche[/font][/color]

[Dan L]

Whoa.. this should get me thinking for a while..

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B]What is God impotent? He can have plenty more beggotten sons and he doesn't have to send them to Earth, he can spread the message around?[/B][/QUOTE]

1- Why have any more?.. Plenty of people ignored the original, what good will a second one do?

2- How do you know he didn't spread it around?.. You see, the Bible is a book about Man, and God, and what God has done on Earth. Just because it doesn't say that God made life elsewhere in his image, doesn't mean he didn't. And if he did, that makes us no less important as a race, than the sheer number of us makes us less important as individuals. Ultimately, the whole "there is nothing out there" opinion comes from people taking a "it doesn't say it happened, so it didn't" mentality.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B]Well if a higher power does exist, how come its like this, why dont I believe it?[/B][/QUOTE]

Because you don't have to. That's the thing. What's the point in faith if it's compulsory?.. that's what was so wrong about the middle ages- people HAD to believe in God, and a certain way of doing things, and there was very little actual faith in there as a result.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B]Why should I beleive in such promises when the 'holy book' that its all written in, is riddled with lies and threats?[/B][/QUOTE]

Give me an example of that and I might just consider it a valid point.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B]God punishes all those who don't worship him or so the bible says, so bring it on?[/B][/QUOTE]

We're not talking about your bog-standard being here. If you don't follow God due to lack of fear (as opposed to lack of belief that he exists) of something infinitely bigger than you, then I don't get you at all. Again, this is assuming (wrongly I know) that you do believe in God, but don't follow him due to lack of fear of punishment.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B]I frankly dont care about God, I just dont believe that somwhere up in the sky a big master plan has been mapped out for us all, tahts why we have our own opinions and lawyers and people are horrible to other people. [/B][/QUOTE]

We have our own opinions because we're all different, and have the free will to form our own opinion. People are horrible to others because they can be, and they don't have the self-control or the desire not to. Ultimately, people are bad, not God. There is only really a "master plan" of sorts when you actually decide to follow it. Sometimes you get drawn into it, but until that point you pretty much do what the hell you like.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B]With all these things going on, believing in God is just a way for the insecure to lie to themselves about it getting better after this. [/B][/QUOTE]

Have you ever talked to a Christian with an actual faith? Most of them, before their conversion, were pretty sure of themselves. I was. I wasn't exactly what you'd call "insecure", I had pretty much the same opinions as you, but I was generally less outward about them. I never really cared a great deal whether it got better or not, and if it did, I didn't need some God to get there. But I see things far differently now, and I'd hardly say most Christians I know are "insecure".

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]That is the most pathetic, bigoted thing I've ever heard.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Bless you, too.. (really, I mean it)

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]Do you know why that belief is prevalent? It's merely an extension of fear. Good men fear evil men, so they try to make every one as good as possible.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't fear evil. Well, I do occasionally but it's all for nothing at all. I have no reason to fear evil people any more than I should fear the Devil. OK, he's a really big pain in the ***, but we all (Christians) know where he's going. If anything, I try (not always successfully) to be compassionate towards evil people, because of the fact that no-one, regardless of what they did, are doing, or are yet to do, is beyond forgiveness.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]You can't accept that goodness, should it exist, and I personally believe it doesn't, is confined to one single entity.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't follow you at all. If you mean that we can't accept that goodness is confined to God, you're wrong. We're all evil, but God chooses to use us anyway. Anyone who believes the gospel and says "I'm a totally good person", didn't understand it right.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]If a person doesn't believe in your god, yet helps people every day of their lives, your god would consign them to some kind of eternal punishment?[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Name me one such person. It's like the "He who is without sin, cast the first stone". Find me one perfect person like that, and I'll happily disregard my beliefs.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]Excuse me, but how did your church get any converts at all? I certainly wouldn't follow what appears to be a somewhat sententious whiner.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I dunno, try asking them why they converted. We certainly get enough to get a fairly large amount of opinions in there.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]Welcome to the grey world, my lost cathartik friend. It's a lot more spacious here, but you can't see where you're going. It's somewhat fogged with misconceptions, prejudice, fear, and moral indignation: jealousy with a halo. Welcome to the real world.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, I recognise that place. I think I live there. We all do, and we're not supposed to try to live in this "fantasy place" that's perfect and all kinds of crap like that. We're supposed to endure the crap in this life, and help people through it. According to our beliefs, there is something beyond all that, but this world is nowhere near it.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]Your black and white theory might have worked in the Middle Ages, when you could simply burn anyone who objected[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Not that we should have, or anything. That was completely wrong. Just like what a lot of people's ancestors did.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]but all your friendly bigots can't do that anymore... so you fall back on absolutes. Absolutes are always the last refuge prejudice takes before the holder of the belief realises he's wrong.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Absolutes?.. You mean like, absolute right and wrong, or what?. Where do you actually think those "absolutes" came from? People are taught from an early age what is good and bad, if it weren't for that, where do you think we'd be? Some cultures don't view stealing as wrong.. they don't even view it as "stealing", the only reason "stealing is bad" has been the general law in our society for so long is cos the majority used to be Christians, and those laws came from the Ten Commandments, and have been adapted over time. I probably misunderstood your whole "absolutes" point.. but I didn't really know what to make of it.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]Your dogma is exactly the pathetic self-righteousness that has killed as many people as any war you can name over the years.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

"Do not use God's name in vain".. what do you think killing in the name of God is classed as, by God?

1- A holy and pure act
2- Using God's name in Vain

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]The followers of your god can not claim to stand with the innocent. No one can. There are no innocents.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]But then, morality is also an extension of prejudice and fear. They are the conscious reaction to instinctive beliefs, not any celestial rule impressed upon us.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

How exactly is morality an extension of prejudice and fear?.. Fear, perhaps, for some, who stick to moral codes for fear of punishment, but how does prejudice get in there?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]As for my life depending on it, (I had a lot to do with Jesus's arguments, I was two feet away from him), you can bet that not only does not concern me, but if your god does strike me down, I'll join all the other matyrs out there. See you in hell. [/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I sincerely hope I don't see you in hell, regardless of where I may be obseving from. Hell isn't the place riddle with naked red guys stabbing people with pitchforks that people imagine it to be, it's far worse than that, iwe can't even begin to imagine it. But that's jsut my belief.

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic][color=crimson]Try equating some of my points with Jeff's black and white theory. That's where my "Does good every day of their life, doesn't believe in God --> goes to hell" statement came from. In fact, every point I made was directed towards Jeff. Your opinions are a little more liberal, so I haven't started on them, and didn't direct any of it at you. Oh, and as for the morality and stuff.

It's basic nature to protect oneself. However, anarchy is also basic nature, of all creatures. Now, the intelligent mind fears anarchy, because the chances of living in a ruled society are much higher than the chances of living in a lawless one. So, we try to confine people with rules. Some smart person a few thousand years back decided that, "Wouldn't it be better if people thought they were following some basic human, or better yet, religious, value, then submitting to the temporal decision of some overlord? They'd be less likely to rebel against these laws we put on them, so we gain more control of them, and are less likely to be killed off by a violent society". And when you get right down to, that's what it's all about. Survival. We've adapted a lot of tricks to make it easier for ourselves, that's all. [/font][/color]

[Mitch]

[color=red] Harlequin, not butting in, but thought I'd point one thing out to you. Even you believe in God. In some form, in someway. Whether it be completely of difference to the faith that you are pacted to, or any faith. You believe in him. That you cannot deny.

Whether he be to you a living person, a nothing that's just there, whatever his form is to you, you [i]do[/i] believe in God one way or another. [/color]

[Sara]

[size=1]I do not think you can speak for someone, saying "Beyond a shadow of a doubt, this person believes in God." I've had discussions with people who [i]do not[/i]. And while I cannot imagine [i]my[/i] life without believing in "something bigger," I hope I would not presume to speak for someone else.

Edit: spelling error[/size]

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic][color=crimson]She's right Mitch. I don't believe in [I]anything[/I] anymore. Too many harsh experiences. I'm far too cynical to accept anything, for one thing. Blame my schizophrenia, if you will. It makes no difference what label you give it. The extent of my association with any deity is a habitual one, used in conjuction with the words "forsaken", or "damn it".[/font][/color]

[Mitch]

[color=red] Eh, it may be assumptious, but Harlequin, even if he may be just nothing, or if he be something, at least it's something to believe in. I used to be uncertain if I belived in God, and now I know somewhat that I do believe in him. I just don't believe in him the way the Christian faith really does.

You may not believe in him at this time, at this point, but earlier in life, you've turned to him at [i]least[/i] once. At least once. So you have belived in him in a way. No matter how small that turn, and no matter how small your want to believe this association.[/color]

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic][color=crimson]Unless it was when I was younger then 10, the part of my life I can't remember anymore, then I haven't. I'm an atheistic existentialist. Freedom, and thus responsiblity is important to me, so I deal with my own problems. I dealt with my insanity, my depression, and my mother's death on my own, I certainly didn't need any god figure, christian or otherwise to help me, and they've been the only serious problems in my life. Ask my family. My prediliction for taking care of myself drives them crazy....lol.[/font][/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic][color=crimson]Try equating some of my points with Jeff's black and white theory. That's where my "Does good every day of their life, doesn't believe in God --> goes to hell" statement came from. In fact, every point I made was directed towards Jeff. Your opinions are a little more liberal, so I haven't started on them, and didn't direct any of it at you.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

*acknowledges your point*

meh.. I tried to write a longer reply but it didn't work...

[James]

[color=#507AAC]Mitch, how can you presume that someone believes in God in some way? When will people realize that all religion is subjective?

Telling someone that they [i]must[/i] believe in God is like telling someone that they [i]must[/i] believe in Bhudda. Don't you see why it makes no sense to say that? I don't think anyone can ever presume to know what others believe. And I think Harlequin was pretty clear in his statements about it.

But anyway, what we're discussing here is fate or destiny. I don't want to continue reminding people (staff included) to remain on topic.[/color]

[Mitch]

[color=red] Meh, it's always fun to argue aimlessly :) I know he doesn't believe in God. He doesn't have to. As long as someone believes in at least on thing--mainly themselves--then they have a subjective and noteworthy reason to believe that they can live, and that they want to live. I was only saying he has turned to God at at least one point in his life, even if it may not matter. I wasn't meaning to state that directly he should belive in god, or he'll blah blah blah. I'm saying sorry to you, Harlequin, and any others that are angry, stolid, or what else about what I've said. I'm just becoming rather depressed and stresed these days, and I sometimes lose my focus...

Yes, back to topic..

Eh, Fate and destiny are almost the exact same of one another. But both point out the same thing. Life has a route set out from the get-go. I don't know, I really don't believe in either of them. But I do believe that we are given certain paths which would be more perpetual, and those that would be shorter, and they are al laid out for us, our choices. In the end, it's the person that makes the destiny, and the person that weaves the fate.[/color]

[vegeta rocker]

If you beleive you will end up a certain way you most likely will. That is the danger of believing in fate.
I believe in destiny. Too many things happen to me for me not to.

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Pardon if I?m late, but I?d late to say well done, to Deus, on the bottom of page 2. I?d like to dovetail some of the things he addressed.[/color]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken[/i]
[b]Why should I beleive in such promises when the 'holy book' that its all written in, is riddled with lies and threats? [/b][/quote]
[color=#9933ff]I?d like to say that if you are referring to the bible, then I?d have to say, yes. The MAJORITY(not all) of the Bible is false. I know for a fact, that things written before the birth of Christ were put into some of the letters of Saint Paul after he died. It doesn?t [i]matter[/i] whether the actual stories are true or not. The idea of the story is what counts.

I?m sure you?ve heard of Daniel and the Lion. It wouldn?t have matter if it was a Gertrude, a Frank, a Charles, surrounded by a tiger, a wolf, a dragon. It doesn?t matter if the story is even true or not! The principle and the moral behind it is what counts.[/color]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken[/i]
[b]I frankly dont care about God, I just dont believe that somwhere up in the sky a big master plan has been mapped out for us all, tahts why we have our own opinions and lawyers and people are horrible to other people. [/b][/quote]
[color=#9933ff]Speaking scientifically here for a moment, I?d like to say that most scientists believe in a higher being that created us all. Some believe we?re a science experiment left by other Aliens. Then who created those Aliens? Some believe, since our solar system is similar to an atom, that we?re some miniscule part of a creature. Then who created that creature? Doesn?t there have to be something higher that created all of us? And no, I?m not trying to force you to believe in a higher force, just making a point, which I think I?m allowed to do (right?).[/color]

[quote][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin[/i]
[color=crimson][b]If a person doesn't believe in your god, yet helps people every day of their lives, your god would consign them to some kind of eternal punishment?[/b][/color][/quote]
[color=#9933ff]Whoever told you that is lying. I know for a fact(and this is coming from the Church, too. There?s a word for it, but I can?t remember) that even if you were an Aborigine in the depths of Australia(Australians don?t kill me. I?m using this as an example), if you lived a good life, and didn?t commit murder, or anything like that, than you would be saved God, and live eternal life with Him. Whoever told you that statement that I quoted of yours, was lying.[/color]

[quote][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin[/i]
[color=crimson][b]As for my life depending on it, (I had a lot to do with Jesus's arguments, I was two feet away from him), you can bet that not only does not concern me, but if your god does strike me down, I'll join all the other matyrs out there. See you in hell. [/b][/color][/quote]
[quote][i]Originally post by Deus Ex Machina[/i]
[b]I sincerely hope I don't see you in hell, regardless of where I may be obseving from. Hell isn't the place riddle with naked red guys stabbing people with pitchforks that people imagine it to be, it's far worse than that, iwe can't even begin to imagine it. But that's jsut my belief.[/b][/quote]
[color=#9933ff]Funny, Heaven and Hell aren?t actual places. They?re the embodiment of things. Heaven isn?t white clouds. Heaven it an eternal state of euphoria with God. Hell, like Deus said, isn?t red, with men with tails. Hell is the eternal separation of God, without His love. God doesn?t send you to Hell if you?ve committed sin. You?re only sent there if you are not sorry for your sins, or you choose to be eternally separated from Him. God?s love is so great, that, if Hitler was truly, TRULY sorry for the things he had done, God would still let him into his kingdom and into Everlasting life. And no, Hitler couldn?t pretend to be sorry. God is all-knowing. He can tell if you?re lying.[/color]

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic][color=crimson]Roxie, you made the same mistake Deus did. I argue by asking questions, more than anything else. Read Jeff's post about the world being black and white, and you'll understand I was making the same point you are, or more accurately, showing Jeff his misconception.

And as for hell not being a place... Bleh. Eternal nothingness is O.K. if you're dressed for it.[/font][/color]

[James]

[color=#507AAC][size=1]How many times do I need to remind people to stay [i]on topic[/i]?

[/color][/size]