Let me take a more specific approach...

[CB Shin]

Concerning Zhang He's very recent lock of his post, this thread will be a more specific concerning post. Occasionally, however, we'll probably get off track. The main subject is the influence of a Mr. Karl Marx. If you don't know him, than you aren't intelligent enough to be in this thread (Forget that last sentence). If by some means you do know him, than post whatever you feel like, kind of like a free style thread. Whether you are anti-marx or pro-marx is completely oblivious to your qualifications to post. I hope this pleases the moderators to some extent and this thread will not be closed 15 minutes within its opening time...

[Charles]

I don't actually know Karl Marx--never met the man. So, I suppose I'm not intelligent enough to reply.

Oh well.

All right, now how about coming up with a point? lol

In its current form, this thread does not please me. You're not introducing a concise subject; you're not taking a specific approach here. You're very broadly saying, "Hey, there's this guy, his name is Karl Marx. He's so important that you should automatically know who he is. Don't close this!"

So, please initiate this discussion, good sir! Enlighten us! You've only given us part of what it takes to create an acceptable discussion--an introduction. Now wrap it up with your own insight so that people will have something to play off of.

If not, I'll close this sucker in two shakes of a lamb's tail. ^_^

[CB Shin]

Well...he's dead so I guess that answers part of your question. He invented Marxism, which in turn developed into communism. It's really a historical thing, so I don't expect that many people to know. For those of you who don't know, communism is a form of government, or economics rather, in which the masses of a communist country share the nation's income. China and Soviet Russia were communist countries, and the propaganda was started in the 50's I think. Actually, I don't agree with China and Soviet Russia's methods, because they twisted a system which was suppose to be glorious. The leaders of those countries kill a lot of their own people, and took most of the nation's wealth for themselves. My father called Marx a lazy lunatic because he hated communism, but I always thought that Marx was an ambitious dreamer. Even if Marx was a lunatic, I still would like to think that people have gone foward, enough so that there could be such thing as "perfect government". The thought might seem impossible, as some less enthusiastic people have told me, but if everyone gave up on what they thought was impossible, we would never have a lot of the inventions or achievements. So if your interested at all in the idea, do a little research, or join the E.R.M. (Equalist Republic of Marx: Only 6 people in my local area, particularly my school). There, does that somewhat make a reasonable thread? :D

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i]
[B] If by some means you do know him, than post whatever you feel like, kind of like a free style thread. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]So let me get this straight, you want us to freestyle about Karl Marx?

In 1818
Marx was born in Germany
And soon after
Became interested in philosophy
He gave the middle finger
To traditional thought
(perhaps he was smoking
too much pot?)
and turned to the works
of Ferbauch and Hess
Marx was more inquisitive
Than Elliot Ness
Unsatisfied due to
German suppression
Marx moved to Paris
And sought freedom of expression
It was during this time
That Marx met Engles
And soon wrote [i]German Ideology[/i]
A work with no catchy Jingles
His insightful exposition
Of his dialectical materialism
Was way to radical
And would have sent the world into a schism
But he wasn?t satisfied
And he joined the Communist League
And wrote his manifesto
(at least according to AskJeeves)
In 1864 he started
The Working Class Association
It would have enticed more members
Except they required castration
All though his ideals were lofty
They also had stern connotations
There is a limit to what I can rhyme
So excuse me for the lack of elaboration
After Marx death
His views were twisted and skewed
They were tainted by a dictator
That killed millions of Jews
The moral of this rhyme
Is to take philosophers with a grain of salt
When their ideals go perverse
It is usually some other guys fault.

Dude that was really difficult. How is everyone supposed to freestyle about communism and Karl Marx?[/color]

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i]
[B]It's really a historical thing, so I don't expect that many people to know.[/B][/QUOTE]

Isn't that sort of contradictory? Something as historical as Marxism and its founder is known by almost everyone because it is such an important part of history.

[Dan L]

In my views, Marx had some decent ideas. I haven't read up on a lot of them, but those I have seem like good visions. The only flaw I'd point out is that it assumes the possibility of a perfect system of government. It assumes that it is possible to unify everyone to the point that they all work for the growth of both the whole and each individual.

The problem is, such a vision is all well and good, and I agree for the whole thing about reaching for the impossible, but the reason that governments are never perfect, and the reason they always screw up is [b]people[/b]. No system can ever take away the inherent flaws that a human being brings to any system which he or she is a part of.

I would love for Marx's dream of a government sytem based on unity to come, and I try to be as brotherly as I can to all people. Often I fail- and that's the problem. There have been good systems before but they've always had flawed people as a part of them- and after generations pass they have a tendency to fall.

My comments were made on limited understanding on Marx's actual goals. If I'm under any false ideas, feel free to correct me.

[CB Shin]

I'm going to reply to those one at a time. First of all D*MN! That was beyond words Heaven's Cloud. Not only did you know specifics about his history, but you turned it into an awesome rap. I commend you for that, though I didn't mean freestyle like that :laugh: (You probably knew that). Next, Wrist Cutter, how many people do you know that are actually concerned with history that much? It is very important, yet the majority of the younger masses don't know a thing about him. Dan L, you have some great insight. You think just like me. I also believe that people are the reason for the failure of tolerance of Marxism, but you'd think that people have advanced far enough to be ambitious of further greatness. I guess it's just not time yet...

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i]
[B]Wrist Cutter, how many people do you know that are actually concerned with history that much? It is very important, yet the majority of the younger masses don't know a thing about him. [/B][/QUOTE]

I honestly don't know anyone who doesn't know who Karl Marx is. I mean, obviously, ten year olds might not know who he is. But by high school I think most everyone is at least familiar with him, knowing that he was sort of the source of communism.

[Boba Fett]

[COLOR=green]Alright, I?ve had enough of this ********.

I know a fair amount about history, and what Karl Marx?s idealistic dreams became. The Soviet Union was, while not what he intended, the outcome of his crazy dreams. It was a regime that overthrew a monarchy in a bloody coup, courtesy of the ideals of Karl Marx. Marx?s protégé, Stalin, took advantage of Marx?s naïve outlook and turned Communism into what we see it as today. A completely corrupt system that benefits only the elite, Communism became the tool of the ambitious few who ruthlessly held power.

Karl Marx?s ideas of a utopian society, while noble, are utterly flawed. You cannot have a perfect society where all are equal. There is an obstacle that stands in the way, an obstacle that cannot be overcome regardless of the effort expended. It?s called human ambition. Under Marx?s system, all are equal. Everyone works for the common good, as a collective. To quote from Spock, ?The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?. Everyone would be equal, and everyone would get what they need, nothing more.

Very few people can live like this. It is far easier for humans to enter into a perpetual competition with each other for ?their piece of the pie?. The system that allows this instinct to thrive is called capitalism.

Unfortunately, the ideas of Karl Marx are unobtainable. Therefore, they are useless. Marx had his head in the clouds, and never realized that his dream could never come to pass. It was this same oblivious response to the realities of life that allowed his dream to be twisted by those who sought to use its ideals to gain power. This happened in China under Chairman Mao, In North Korea under KIM Il-song (And now his son) and in the USSR under Stalin (and his successors until the collapse of the Soviet Union on December 26, 1991).

In the end, Karl Marx gave birth to a monster, which he lost control of. A monster whose terrible effect on the world will be felt for year to come.

There, there?s your Karl Marx and his grand dream.

CB Shin, I?d appreciate it if you?d stop acting like the world is full of completely stupid people. There aren?t many people, at least on this forum that are as ignorant as you make the whole world to be. Your phrase ?Educating the Masses? is one of the most pathetic things I?ve heard in this forum in a long time. If anyone needs educating, it?s you.


And another thing.

Heaven?s Cloud ? I assume in the below quote you are referring to Adolf Hitler. If not, feel free to correct me.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Heaven's Cloud [/i]
[B][color=indigo]They were tainted by a dictator
That killed millions of Jews[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=green]As I recall, Hitler was a rabid anti-communist. Therefore, he had nothing to do with Karl Marx. He had his own manifesto, [I]Mein Kampf[/I]. Just thought you?d like to know.

-Boba Fett[/COLOR]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]I honestly don't know anyone who doesn't know who Karl Marx is. I mean, obviously, ten year olds might not know who he is. But by high school I think most everyone is at least familiar with him, knowing that he was sort of the source of communism. [/B][/QUOTE]

Not in countries where we were never hit with the "communist threat" propaganda (or maybe we just didn't respond so well) and "damn communists" is not considered a national catchphrase :p. I never learned about Marx in high school, and I dunno if many others from England will have either.

[Semjaza]

I'm rather surprised by that considering the communist countries that are close in distance to and have been involved with all of Europe in some form.

[Dan L]

Maybe so, but believe me, "communist" is generally a very rare word to enter conversation, and Marxism and Karl Marx are not particularly common knowledge among those who took history at school for as long as they have to.

Why that is I have no idea. Probably something to do with the majority of us wanting to keep our little island strictly to it's own business..

[Luminaire]

[color=crimson]Since I am the only one who pays attention in my history class, I know who Karl Marx is. His ideals of equality were dreams that could never be reached. We see that now over 100 years later as communism rules some countries. Communism is the corrupt, twisted version of a beautiful dream. But, that is all that Marxism is, a dream. Boba Fett said most of what I would have said, so I won't rewrite everything he wrote. I echo his opinion.

Fantastic rap Heaven. Can I show that to my history teacher? He'll get a kick out of it. Also, Hitler was anti-communist as Boba Fett said, but it's fine the way it is. Your rhyming skills are wonderful.

~Lumi ^_^[/color]

[wiccansamurai]

I only know who Karl Marx is because I read Animal Farm... ^.^;;

But I think he had a good idea, and Snow- er, I mean that one guy (I forgot his name ><) Would have been good if he wasn't chased out by Stalin and his army. I don't really have much of an opinion on it. Its all in the past.

EDIT: I remembered the name! Trotskey! I think.... Well, I feel proud of myself, anyway. Of course, now I've forgotten my own name....

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Boba Fett [/i]
[B][COLOR=green]
Heaven?s Cloud ? I assume in the below quote you are referring to Adolf Hitler. If not, feel free to correct me.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=green]As I recall, Hitler was a rabid anti-communist. Therefore, he had nothing to do with Karl Marx. He had his own manifesto, [I]Mein Kampf[/I]. Just thought you?d like to know.

-Boba Fett[/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]Although you are right in saying that Hitler was a "rabid anti-communist" (I liked your phrase and it seems fitting, especially considering Hitler's view of Stalin) he actually was known for quoting Marxist philosophy. He often said that the Utopian society that Marx envisioned could only come about if a dominant race and power took control of Europe.

Anyway, I agree with your entire post, mainly because people thrive in adversity and competition, two things which cannot exist in the world according to Marx. Like I implied in my jingle, philosphy can afford unrealistic rationale, government cannot.[/color]

[Doukeshi]

[QUOTE][B][I]Originally posted by CB Shin[/i]The main subject is the influence of a Mr. Karl Marx. If you don't know him, than you aren't intelligent enough to be in this thread.[/QUOTE][/B]

How very elitist of you. You can measure intelligence by that fact that someone knows who Karl Marx is or not can you? Amazing. I do know who Marx is actually and I agree with Bobba to some extent. His ideas were purely dreams that could have no real basis in society. Though I don't understand the anger that seems to eminate from his post. All men are allowed to dream and that's esentially what Karl Marx was doing, dreaming of a better world where prejudice, poverty and famine don't exist. He dreamt of equality in nations and a fine dream it was. Of course because of the nature of humanity this could never be but we all learn from our mistakes.

True though, Philosophy it may be, Politics it could never be.

[Guest Zhang_He]

i have no idea but you people realize that Hitler was a facsist,right? the matix has been know to qote toaist saying's so does that mean that every person who is Toaist can stay in the air in the crane positon? And where the hell did you get the idea that stalin was marx's prtege? Stalin was Lenien's protege, i don't even think that Stalin knew Marx onsidering Marx was born in 1818. And the guy that the Someday's dreamers lady mentioned is a composer who did the Nutcracker music. I think the last Csar of Russia was Alexander or was he the first? i can't remember i'm in US history now and it blows, stupid Civil War, being the dumbest war in the history of man, however Iraqi Freedom was a dumbass war aswell.

[CB Shin]

Wrist Cutter, I don't know where you live, but most people in my area are ignorant of Karl Marx. I guess your area just has higher expectations on history. Boba Fett, while your arguement is very intelligent (and hostile), there is a giant error in that Stalin was Lenin's protege since Marx was dead before he came to power. Concerning ambition, I believe it is a weakness. Ambition was the thing that lead present communist leaders to take advantage of the system. Had there been righteous leaders of communism, the world would see it very differently then that of today. NO communist country has ever had a decent leader. The idea is just ahead of our time and you obviously give people too little credit. I see no problem of my saying, "educating the masses" because based on my experience, people simply don't know him and they just don't care. If I don't know something, it's simply because no one told me or I never took the time to learn, so you completely twisted my words. Doukeshi03, I must apologize for what I put in the beginning of this thread. I won't deny I put it in there, but I take it back. If people don't know him, they are simply ignorant as I stated before, and there is nothing wrong with that. By the way, dreams are always the start of something real.

[Corey]

[color=003333][size=1]When you say ambition is a weakness, do you mean all around or just in the governing offices.[/size][/color]

[Boba Fett]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Zhang_He [/i]
[B]i have no idea but you people realize that Hitler was a facsist,right? the matix has been know to qote toaist saying's so does that mean that every person who is Toaist can stay in the air in the crane positon? And where the hell did you get the idea that stalin was marx's prtege? Stalin was Lenien's protege, i don't even think that Stalin knew Marx onsidering Marx was born in 1818. And the guy that the Someday's dreamers lady mentioned is a composer who did the Nutcracker music. I think the last Csar of Russia was Alexander or was he the first? i can't remember i'm in US history now and it blows, stupid Civil War, being the dumbest war in the history of man, however Iraqi Freedom was a dumbass war aswell. [/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=green]Talk about educating the masses?

Looks like you could use a few lessons in proper spelling, punctuation and grammar Zhang He. That post is not only hard to read, but also to understand. It might help if the people you are trying to educate could understand you.

Hitler was a Nazi, not a fascist. Nazi?s utilize many fascist ideas, but are also concerned with racial and ethnic superiority. This separates them from fascists like Benito Mussolini.

That ?Someday Dreamers lady? is wiccansamurai. She?s halfway right, she was thinking of Trotsky but spelled Trotskey. Trotsky was, like Lenin, an important communist figure.

Your comment of the ?Csar? of Russia is completely irrelevant. Thanks for playing.
The last [B]Czar[/B] of Russia was Nicholas II, the first I could find was Mikhail Feodorovich (Czar from 1613-1645).

You say, Mr. Zhang He, that you are taking US History now. I don?t know where you live, but I can tell you that in Conn. I find my US History class engaging and very interesting. Your comments about Operation Iraqi Freedom and the Civil War are not only wrong, but they are off topic. Let?s stick to Karl Marx and communism?[/COLOR]

[center]---------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i]
[B]Boba Fett, while your arguement is very intelligent (and hostile), there is a giant error in that Stalin was Lenin's protege since Marx was dead before he came to power.[/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=green]I stand corrected; Stalin was indeed Lenin?s protégé. However, Lenin was heavily influenced by the ideas of Karl Marx. Hence his support for communism.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i]
[B]Concerning ambition, I believe it is a weakness.[/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=green]However, I strongly disagree with your thesis that ambition is weakness.

Ambition- An eager or strong desire to achieve something, such as fame or power.

Weakness-
1. Lacking physical strength, energy, or vigor; feeble.
2. Likely to fail under pressure, stress, or strain
3. Lacking the proper strength or amount of ingredients
4. Lacking the ability to function normally or fully
5. Lacking aptitude or skill
6. Lacking or resulting from a lack of intelligence.
7. Lacking persuasiveness; unconvincing
8. Lacking authority or the power to govern
9. Lacking potency or intensity

I don?t know why you consider someone with strong ambition, someone with a desire to do well and achieve something, weak. Weakness is a state that should be discouraged and avoided. How could you say that ambition [I]is[/I] weakness? These are two completely different things.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i][B]Ambition was the thing that lead present communist leaders to take advantage of the system. Had there been righteous leaders of communism, the world would see it very differently then that of today.[/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=green]CB Shin, you mentioned that it was ambition that has caused the perversion of communism. I have news for you; every leader that ever was has possessed ambition. Nobody rises to the top without it. To be a leader, you have to stop being a follower and take a stand. You have to take a risk, in your attempt to gain power. This takes ambition. [B]I find it very difficult to believe that you could find a leader without ambition.[/B] It?s simply against human nature.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i][B]NO communist country has ever had a decent leader.[/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=green]You were correct in saying that no communist country has ever had a decent leader. I wonder why? Could it possibly be that absolute power corrupts absolutely? In a true communist system, should there even be leaders? Something tells me the very idea of a communist system is flawed?[/COLOR]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i][B]The idea is just ahead of our time and you obviously give people too little credit. [/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=green]The idea of communism isn?t ahead of it?s time, it?s a [B]crazy[/B] utopian dream. A society where all are equal, where everyone is treated exactly the same and everyone gets what they need. The guy who works hard in this system is treated exactly the same as the lazy worker. There is no incentive for innovation or improvement. Who would want to live in such a society? It?s incompatible with human nature.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i][B]I see no problem of my saying, "educating the masses" because based on my experience, people simply don't know him and they just don't care. If I don't know something, it's simply because no one told me or I never took the time to learn, so you completely twisted my words.[/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=green]Your claim that the majority of people have either never heard of Karl Marx or simply aren?t interested in him. Well, anyone who has taken a course in modern US history will have heard of Karl Marx. His ideas were the basis of communism, which we all know has been a force of evil in this past century.

If people aren?t interested in Karl Marx, you shouldn?t try to educate them against their will. If they are interested, it?s more than likely that they wont wait around for someone like you to give them information.

This last sentence made me laugh. Here you are educating the masses, without much of the knowledge needed to teach about the subject you are advocating. Communism and Karl Marx?s ideas are both miserable failures. I don?t care how noble, idealistic or utopian they are. If they don?t work, they?re useless.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i][B]By the way, dreams are always the start of something real. [/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=green]I disagree. Dreams can lead to reality, but aren?t [B]always[/B] possible to achieve. I can daydream all I want about becoming a moderator, but it?s unlikely to happen. Communism is a dream that?s been tried in North Korea, China and the former USSR. All three of these grand experiments failed. You can?t explain this all away by blaming it on corrupt leaders. There?s something fundamentally flawed about the system that allows the rise of evil dictators. [B]The dream of communism has been tried, and it has failed.[/B][/COLOR]

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i]
[B]Concerning ambition, I believe it is a weakness. [/B][/QUOTE]

Wow. Just...wow....

Not since Howard Dean's last press conference did I ever think I would hear such an incredibly stupid statement. I usually don't like to immediatly dismiss opinions of others, even if they strongly diverge from my own, but if all pro-communists says such bull****...

You, sir, would make an ideal communist leader, because you've decided you know more than the rest of the world, and that your opinion on how to run the world is the proper one. So what if all the facts point in the opposite direction of everything you're saying? As Homer Simpson said, "Bah! You can use facts to prove anything!"

Do you think it is a coincidence that every single communist government either a) fell into poverty or b) became a horrible dictatorship, or both? History has proven that [b]communism doesn't work[/b]. Marx was an idiot. A well-meaning idiot, to be sure, but he had no concept of reality.

You can say that all previous communist governments were "flawed", and not "ture communism". I'll agree. However, whenever you actually introduce [b]human beings[/b] into any political system, the system [b]always diverges[/b] from its originally intended model. People don't show up on voting day, so a true democracy isn't achieved. Reprasentatives loose touch with their constituancy, so a true republc isn't achieved. Leaders become power-hungry dictators, so a true commune is never achieved.

However, the problems with communism go beyond simple corruption. The system is inherantly flawed because it ignores everything we know about human nature. Human beings are individuals, so moreso than others. They want and need recognition for individual achievements. You can't have that in communism, because the whole point is that the [b]individual doesn't matter[/b]. Only the group matters.

In a communist system, a man with absolutly no skills and no job would get the exact same material rewards as an accomplished surgeon, because that's what the commune decided they both need. Where's the drive for sucess? What's my motivation to succeed, if the result will be the same no matter what I do? In other words, there's no reason for ambition.

Ambition a weakness? Ambition is the desire for something [b]better than what you have[/b], you clueless tool. Ambition is the sole reason we're still not sitting in caves wondering if rocks are edible.

Can ambition be twisted around into a terrible thing? Yes, of course. Guess what? So can communism.

Even if we completely ignore the [b]huge, bliningly-obvious flaws[/b] of communism, and actually achieve the so-called "true communism", exactly akin to Marx's moronic day-dreams, I still would never want to be a part of that.

[b][i]"To each according to his need, from each according to his ability"[/i] is the most ******-up philosiphy ever.[/b] If you can produce moree, I think you need more in return for the extra work you do for the society. If you want to get more, you need to produce more. Rewards proportional to the work put into the society exist for a reason.

And, the greatest irony out of all of this is that by differencing yourself from the "masses", you're breaking a principle of communism. In communism, [b]you are nothing but a minute part of the mass[/b].

In conclusion, your arrogance is unimaginable, the misinformation you spout is laughable, and I hope the doctors find a way to surgically remove your head from your arse so that you may join the rest of us here in the real world.

[Semjaza]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dan L [/i]
[B]Maybe so, but believe me, "communist" is generally a very rare word to enter conversation, and Marxism and Karl Marx are not particularly common knowledge among those who took history at school for as long as they have to. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I must say that communism isn't exactly a topic of discussion against most peopl of our age group in the US either. We don't have righteous debates on the various forms of good-in-theory, poor-in-reality governments heh. Maybe there are these peopel, but I've yet to meet them lol.

But you know, I honestly can't say that a lot of schools here in Chicago cover these issues either. I barely remember this subject even being broached in my classes and considering the US's obsession with communism at certain points in its history... I can totally understand why a school elsewhere would barely bring it up.

In any case, I'm vastly amused by this thread and the posts made by the people who were supposedly going to inform the rest of the board of how intelligent they are based on so much misinformation. Good points were brought up, sure, but I think it's safe to say that for the most part it didn't amount to much.

[CB Shin]

I guess I got more of an arguement than I asked for :laugh: There is especially a lot of controversy in my statement "Ambition is a weakness" (though I think that's irrelevant to Howard Dean's Confederate saying). Ambition may be a strength when you first think about it, but it has a great chance of turning into greed. You cannot honestly say greed is a good thing can you? It is a very common thing to have something good turn bad. I assume you've all heard the term "Cooking the Books" which is a result from greed. Concerning people, I made a fatal mistake of overestimating the majority and assuming that they can act in unity. There will always be lazy people who don't care about the county they live in, to the hard working people who care so much as to oppose anything different, like Deathbug for example. Boba Fett and Semjaza Azazel also pointed out that I was talking out of ignorance of Karl Marx. I assure you that I have done a fair amount of research on Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, Lenin, Trotsky and all the rest. Simply because you may have different opinions on their philosophy does not mean that I have misinformation on the subject. Deathbug, you say that I am differencing myself from the "masses" shows me your hypocracy. You assault my opinions, yet you don't acknowledge the "masses", thinking the word an insult. I do believe people should have their individual rights, but without damaging their sense of unity, not just one or the other. Not to sound two-sided here, but I agree that present day communists are cowards. They do rise to power with ambition and keep it selfishly for themselves, fearful that if others had that same ambition, he would lose power. Perhaps my ideas differenciate from Marx's, though the main premise is still the same...

[DeathBug]

Let me first off say I was'nt referring specfically to Dean's comments regarding the Confederate flag, I was reffering to his comments the last time he happened to open his mouth. (About a week and a half ago, he said that "Jesus was a very inspirational figure, when you think about it." I'm sure 60% of America agree with you, Howie-boy.)

If we're going back to ambition, I'll gladly admit that it can become tainted by greed. Guess what? So can everything else, including communism. You can be greedy and lazy, too, but that's aside the point. Ambition drives society. To say it's a flaw is just stupid. Ambition is only malicious if the ambitious person is malicious anyway. That's like saying that "intelligence is a weakness, because it can be used for evil". It's just stupid.

Do not think I oppose anything different; I'm an open-minded person, or at least I like to think so. i'll listen to your argument if you've got one. However, I made my decision on communism long ago, so you've got [b]a lot[/b] of work cut out for you if you think to change my mind on this issue.

Let me break it down for you: I used to live in Eastern Europe. I've been to many parts of the former Iron Curtian. Those people live in poverty, all because their predessors thought communism was a good idea. Why don't you go to those women begging in the streets while cradling newborns at the same time, and explain to them the "beauties"of "true communism"? The Communist idea ****ed them over. Those people are the true "masses" that communism was supposed to help.

I currently live in Florida. I have many friends who are here because their parents choose to cross the Mediterranian Sea in a shoddy little raft rather than live under a communist regime. Why don't you tell them that they should just swim right back, because they were closer to the "social utopia" where they were?

It infuriates me to know end when people living comfortably in the safe bosom of a democracy are so ungreatful and ignorant of the realities of the world to assume that they and they alone can create a utopian society out of what has [b]proven, time and time again, to be a horrible system of government[/b]. Think about it. Why has there [b]never been a good communist nation[/b]? Does this one system of government just happen to attract all the dictators?

No; the fact is, communism doesn't and will never work. It's been tried, and it always fails.

Are my opinions deeply rooted in emotions resulting from what I've seen of other's experiences? Yes; there are far worse ways to form opinions. Get over it.

[Bio]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i]
[B]Ambition may be a strength when you first think about it, but it has a great chance of turning into greed.[/B][/Quote]

[font=arial]Ambition, which has been already defined, is basically the same thing as greed, so I'll have to agree with you partly, because it already is.

However, since ambition is not exactly the same as greed, I must also disagree. Ambition is usually thought of as a desire to accomplish something, and greed as a desire to accomplish something for oneself.

Ambition therefore, cannot turn into greed; ambitious thoughts turning into greedy thoughts would be moving into a completely different category, almost as much as the desire to live changing to the desire to die.[/font]