Questioning Christianity

[Brasil]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']What is practical about going to Heaven? How is this not redundant?[/quote]
In Heaven, you have a consciousness of your surroundings. You know where you are, and you know why you're there. You're blessed with happiness and peace, and no pain of any type. You live out your days comfortably, not in some rat-race on a hamster wheel in the big Re-incarnation game of Life.

[QUOTE]You don't need to be aware of re-incarnation to have a chance of getting your life 'right' [according to Adahn].[/QUOTE]
Then people are merely stumbling about, and there's no real, tangible salvation in store, because it just becomes a redundant rat-race on the previously mentioned hamster wheel. It comes down to pure randomness, and randomness isn't going to save anyone.

[QUOTE]Just imagine that there is a room full of monkeys [lol]. These monkeys will die and be re-born until they do whatever it is to remove them from the cycle.[/QUOTE]
Are these monkeys typing on typewriters, by any chance?

[quote]It's bound to happen eventually, right?[/size][/QUOTE]
Check out Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Specifically, the part about the Implausible Improbability generator. The idea of the I.I. is basically that nothing intangible is ever certain, so it's impossible to predict anything. Everything is just random, with no real guaranteed probability.

[Afire]

[QUOTE=Ben]Christians believe that in Heaven we will be fully in communion with God, and will have no other wants or needs. It won't seem redundant, as we're all totally enthralled by God's perfection.

It's not something I [I]personally[/I] like to think about as I'm here on earth, but then, I've never experienced the feeling of being fully immersed in God's love. I'm sure it has to be better than anything I've experienced, but it is still rather difficult for me to believe. I kind of like life on earth. :p[/QUOTE]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][COLOR=Red]What is to stop us from being fully in communion with God now, Ben? I'm becoming more enthralled by God's perfection everday, as I am immersed in the truth of what He finished. To go back to an image of a God of Death would be impossible.

The way I see it, Hell is Death. Hell is sickness and disease and corruption of the flesh. It's everything that leads to death. It is all the sadness, pain and horrors that go along with death. After Christ died, he released every soul from death. They were even seen walking throughout the city. What was that all about?

Maybe somewhere deep in the subconscious mind, we do know something of our past lives. I don't know. But if we were required to "get it right this time," it would cancel out all of GRACE. Getting it right only requires faith in eternal life; whether the unjust be unjust still.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Mitch]

[size=1][color=red] I believe it's assumptuous to believe that after this life, you'll live in a heaven or a hell or you'll be reincarnated or whatever other ideas there are. I simply believe that I do not know what shall happen when I die and thus I am not going to concern myself with it - instead, whatever happens when I die shall happen - whether it be I go to hell, heaven, or I just cease to exist.

I guess you could say I take a more scientific approach to it - a "seeing is believing" way of it.

Religiously I also have no religion, but I'm agnostic - meaning, I do not know if there is a god nor do I know if there is - and also that I believe our understanding of god as humans is beyond us. It's kind of an apatheist approach to it, because in the end if there is a god or if there isn't doesn't concern me - it is an answer I'll never get while I'm alive, so I'm not going to falsely believe in a religion.

Religion to me at this point is a moral system that teaches us what's wrong and right, and which gives our life purpose where there otherwise would be no purpose. I respect those who believe in a religion, but personally, I have no place for some sytem that indoctrinates and tells one what to do because we're too ignorant to think for ourselves.

Another good point I would like to bring up is, if there is a god, who says there would be one? I don't understand the monotheistic beliefs of so many religions at this point, when it seems to me, the universe, as vast as it is, probably was made by more than one omniscient omnipotent being. [/size][/color]

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='Mitch']I simply believe that I do not know what shall happen when I die and thus I am not going to concern myself with it - instead, whatever happens when I die shall happen - whether it be I go to hell, heaven, or I just cease to exist. [/quote]


While I'm all for apathy, this type of approach presents a problem. If indeed heaven and hell do exist, no one would end up in heaven. But that's just hypothetically speaking.

[Adahn]

[quote name='Siren]I've again bolded a key sentence here. If you're re-incarnating someone as someone completely different, with no knowledge at all of their past life, how do you expect them to right their wrong in their previous life? Are you going to tell them what they need to do? [i]C'mon[/i'].[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Reincarnation is no more and no less than another chance to accept salvation and eternal life.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[QUOTE=Siren]
Then people are merely stumbling about, and there's no real, tangible salvation in store, because it just becomes a redundant rat-race on the previously mentioned hamster wheel. It comes down to pure randomness, and randomness isn't going to save anyone.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]We're talking about the decisions of real people, here. Are you trying to say that every action any and every man makes is completely random?[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
[size=1]Your idea has merit Adahn; Go pee yourself.[/QUOTE][/size]
[size=1][/size]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes sir.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']Reincarnation is no more and no less than another chance to accept salvation and eternal life.[/quote]
The chance is non-existent, though, because those being re-incarnated have absolutely no idea what they have to do so they can achieve Immortality. To have an idea, they would either:

A) Have to be told, thus, directed, thus, not arrive at the "truth" themselves.

B) Stumble across it randomly, and random is not guaranteed.

Think about it. You're not helping anyone by forcing them into this rat-race hamster wheel system.


[quote]We're talking about the decisions of real people, here. Are you trying to say that every action any and every man makes is completely random?[/QUOTE]
You still have not bothered to understand what I'm saying here.

The chances of salvation in this "Re-incarnation" idea of yours are bordering on non-existent, because the only chance they have to gain Immortality is based on randomness. Man's actions are not completely random, because I'm purposely hitting Reply here.

In the case of your "Re-incarnation," however, there's absolutely nothing specific about it. Okay, they accept your "Truth" and they're saved. What if they have no idea what they're [i]supposed[/i] to do?

Since re-incarnation requires a memory wipe (otherwise, you've got Identity Confusion), they're going into their next life with no idea in hell what they need to do to remove themselves from the hamster wheel, meaning, the only chance they have is to stumble across the answer, meaning, it's all random, and randomness does not guarantee anything, because you cannot predict certainty, although you're still trying to predict a certain, specific result in a system of totally randomness.

If that's too hard to comprehend, I'll simplify it:

Your system ("Re-incarnation") depends on a totally random variable (knowledge of the "Truth") to succeed, but with that totally random variable, there is absolutely no guarantee of any measure of success, because everyone is going around blind, in that they have no idea at all why they're there, what they're doing there, or how to get out of there.

It's the rat-race hamster wheel. Think about it.

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]By that same logic, getting into heaven is a random event, too. You have to somehow stumble across this Bible, read it, and understand that you have to believe in this Jesus fellow so that when you die, you can live in the eternal bliss of Heaven. If you fail to meet these conditions, you burn eternally, with no idea of what you've done or why everything hurts so much.[/color][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']By that same logic, getting into heaven is a random event, too. You have to somehow stumble across this Bible, read it, and understand that you have to believe in this Jesus fellow so that when you die, you can live in the eternal bliss of Heaven. If you fail to meet these conditions, you burn eternally, with no idea of what you've done or why everything hurts so much.[/quote]Come on, man, you're grasping at straws here.

I think we all can agree that there are guides in Christianity's idea of Heaven and Hell. You know what you're supposed to do in Christianity: live a good life, love thy neighbor, embrace Christ's love (Ten Commandments, hello?). You're told precisely what the guidelines and requirements are. This isn't even forcing you to do anything, either. They're simply telling you what's expected, so your counter there isn't going to work.

Your idea is simply plopping people down into this vicious existential cycle with no direction or guidance at all, leaving them up to their own devices to stumble across a "truth" that you're not telling them about, and fixing a "Wrong" that you haven't even explained to them.

[i]Come on.[/i]

EDIT: Also, why not just admit that your entire idea is just based on vague misinterpretations of the Bible with no real substantial thought processes behind it? I've already showed you the problems over AIM with your stance on Revelation, and how you misinterpreted that. I've explained to you the PRC (Progressive Revelatory Comprehension), as well.

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Ohhh, you're saying I haven't told you exactly what you need to do? Here it is. All that other stuff applies. All you have to do in addition to that is believe that Jesus saved us from sin and death, and accept his offer of eternal life. You have to have faith in it. I thought I made that clear before, but I guess not.[/color][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']Ohhh, you're saying I haven't told you exactly what you need to do? Here it is. All that other stuff applies. All you have to do in addition to that is believe that Jesus saved us from sin and death, and accept his offer of eternal life. You have to have faith in it. I thought I made that clear before, but I guess not.[/quote]You're not telling those Re-incarnated people, though, are you? Are you giving them any indication at all what to do? Come on, man. You've got nothing left. Your entire argument is falling to pieces, lol.

We've already established that there cannot be a successful Re-incarnated life without the memory wipe, so people are going to have no idea what they did wrong (yes, wrong) in their previous life. You're forcing them into this vicious cycle, and giving them no indication at all how they can help themselves.

You're telling us this, yes, but nobody here buys into your theory anyway, so that's a moot support point for you.

Come on. lol

Furthermore, in case you didn't see the Edit, your entire take on the "Eternal life" theme of the Bible is a misinterpretation, like I explained to you over AIM. I walked you through the entire thing, remember?

[Adahn]

[quote name='Siren']You're not telling those Re-incarnated people, though, are you? Are you giving them any indication at all what to do? Come on, man. You've got nothing left. Your entire argument is falling to pieces, lol.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I'm talking to everyone here, inculding myself.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
We've already established that there cannot be a successful Re-incarnated life without the memory wipe, so people are going to have no idea what they did wrong (yes, wrong) in their previous life. You're forcing them into this vicious cycle, and giving them no indication at all how they can help themselves.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Again, I just told you what needed to be done, and I'm talking to everyone.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
You're telling us this, yes, but nobody here buys into your theory anyway, so that's a moot support point for you.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Right. Everybody knows that if nobody believes something, that makes it untrue.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Come on. lol

Furthermore, in case you didn't see the Edit, your entire take on the "Eternal life" theme of the Bible is a misinterpretation, like I explained to you over AIM. I walked you through the entire thing, remember?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It is an interpretation. I explained to you how I was right, and you explained to me how I was wrong. I bought into what you were saying just as much as you believed what I was saying.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Adahn]I'm talking to everyone here, [b]inculding myself[/b].

Again, I just told you what needed to be done, and I'm talking to everyone.[/quote]
Something tells me that this entire thread wasn't even about talking to everyone. I think it's an ego trip for you, that's all. I think the only reason you had for creating this thread was to stroke your own ego and feel justified in re-inforcing your belief for yourself, because you knew that your idea was going to be met with (valid) criticisms.

You never created this thread to talk to anyone else; you created this thread simply to talk to yourself. Why not just admit that? This entire thread of yours was just a way for you to feel better about yourself?

[QUOTE]Right. Everybody knows that if nobody believes something, that makes it untrue.

It is an interpretation. I explained to you how I was right, and you explained to me how I was wrong. I bought into what you were saying just as much as you believed what I was saying.[/QUOTE]
Not my point at all, so stop trying to spin it.

My point is, that you're trying to convince people of an idea that everyone knows is wrong. You've based your theory on half-interpretations and filtered/twisted takes on isolated phrases and sentences of 1,000-line scriptures, and then tried to say that because of these five lines in this entire Book, the entire Book actually means this. Bullsh-t, and we all know that, and you know that, too. That's why your "I'm explaining this to everybody" line is a moot point, because you're not explaining anything substantial, because what you're "Explaining" just simply isn't what the Source Material is.

Up until our AIM convo, you'd seemingly never even heard of the PRC (Progressive Revelatory Comprehension) idea. How is that possible? You surely have come across it in your [i]exhaustive[/i] Biblical studies (studies that somehow validate your Literary Interpretive Fraud), right?

You'd seemingly never even considered how the passages regarding Revelation fit into the Bible as a whole. You've always hyperfocused on those little, tiny, isolated, 1-line quotes, ignoring the rest, and tried to make it seem like you had magically figured it out.

You hadn't, and that much is clear to everyone here, including yourself, yet you keep ignoring that because if you were to admit to that, you would break your argument yourself, without any help from us. As it stands now, however, you've tried to twist things around in the Bible through isolating 1-line quotes, taking them out of context from both the smaller passages, and from the Bible as a whole, which is simply a bad idea when trying to provide an alternative interpretation.

That'd be like me quoting one line from Claudius' prayer scene in Hamlet and trying to say that Claudius was actually a good guy. I'd be taking the line out of context, which is what you did here.

[Adahn]

[quote name='Siren']Something tells me that this entire thread wasn't even about talking to everyone. I think it's an ego trip for you, that's all. I think the only reason you had for creating this thread was to stroke your own ego and feel justified in re-inforcing your belief for yourself, because you knew that your idea was going to be met with (valid) criticisms.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]My purpose for this thread was to present an idea and be challenged. I really, really love debating. [/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
You never created this thread to talk to anyone else; you created this thread simply to talk to yourself. Why not just admit that? This entire thread of yours was just a way for you to feel better about yourself?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You are very fond of putting words into people's mouths and thoughts in their heads, do you know that? You think you understand everything, and you will not accept anyone's thoughts or feelings for what they are unless they fit into your analysis. On a lighter note, if there's a word for someone like this, you probably know what it is.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Not my point at all, so stop trying to spin it.

My point is, that you're trying to convince people of an idea that everyone knows is wrong. You've based your theory on half-interpretations and filtered/twisted takes on isolated phrases and sentences of 1,000-line scriptures, and then tried to say that because of these five lines in this entire Book, the entire Book actually means this. Bullsh-t, and we all know that, and you know that, too. That's why your "I'm explaining this to everybody" line is a moot point, because you're not explaining anything substantial, because what you're "Explaining" just simply isn't what the Source Material is.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I will admit one thing to you, Siren. The only thing I got from the book as a whole was reincarnation. I could pull things out to try and explain it, but what I got was more of a [i]feeling.[/i] My feelings, by the way, tend to be correct.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Up until our AIM convo, you'd seemingly never even heard of the PRC (Progressive Revelatory Comprehension) idea. How is that possible? You surely have come across it in your [i]exhaustive[/i] Biblical studies (studies that somehow validate your Literary Interpretive Fraud), right?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'm actually curious to know where you learned that.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
You'd seemingly never even considered how the passages regarding Revelation fit into the Bible as a whole. You've always hyperfocused on those little, tiny, isolated, 1-line quotes, ignoring the rest, and tried to make it seem like you had magically figured it out.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]That's all I can do, when people are looking for evidence to substantiate my claim. If you want a broad look at it, here it is. The prophecies are so blatantly obvious that we'd have to degrade ourselves to complete idiocy as a race to miss those signs.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
You hadn't, and that much is clear to everyone here, including yourself, yet you keep ignoring that because if you were to admit to that, you would break your argument yourself, without any help from us. As it stands now, however, you've tried to twist things around in the Bible through isolating 1-line quotes, taking them out of context from both the smaller passages, and from the Bible as a whole, which is simply a bad idea when trying to provide an alternative interpretation.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Well, if it's broader aspects you'd like, I'll do my best to give them to you.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
That'd be like me quoting one line from Claudius' prayer scene in Hamlet and trying to say that Claudius was actually a good guy. I'd be taking the line out of context, which is what you did here.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]If there's anything you'd like a broader interpretation of, please, don't hesitate to ask.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I will admit one thing to you, Siren. The only thing I got from the book as a whole was reincarnation. I could pull things out to try and explain it, but what I got was more of a [i]feeling.[/i] My feelings, by the way, tend to be correct.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

[color=green]There?s an ego trip if I ever saw one?[/color]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It is an interpretation. I explained to you how I was right, and you explained to me how I was wrong. I bought into what you were saying just as much as you believed what I was saying.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

[color=green]Explained? You?re taking quotes completely out of context and stretching them to the point where every teenager on the boards can puncture them without much thought.

I just don?t see how you still believe in this theory after reading the bible. Hell is mentioned probably hundreds of times, but you deny its existence. You claim to be a Christian, when if fact your views as expressed here are incompatible with that faith.

Get over yourself and admit your ideas are pure ********.[/color]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett]
[color=green]Explained? You?re taking quotes completely out of context and stretching them to the point where every teenager on the boards can puncture them without much thought.[color=#000000][/QUOTE][/color][/color]
[color=green][color=#000000][/color][/color]
[color=green][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Might I suggest that you do the unthinkable, and take even ONE of my interpretations and show how easily it falls apart before making grand generalizations about everything I've said?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett]
I just don?t see how you still believe in this theory after reading the bible. Hell is mentioned probably hundreds of times, but you deny its existence. You claim to be a Christian, when if fact your views as expressed here are incompatible with that faith.[color=#000000][/QUOTE][/color]
[color=#000000][/color]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Hell was destroyed. I'm not denying its existence, I'm acknowledging its destruction.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett]
Get over yourself and admit your ideas are pure ********.[/color][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Do me a favor and use some logic with your arguments. You seem to be fond of generalizations without any support.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']My purpose for this thread was to present an idea and be challenged. I really, really love debating.[/quote]Oh, so it's "being challenged" now, as opposed to "being proved horribly, horribly wrong?" C'mon, man, just forget about it.

[QUOTE]You are very fond of putting words into people's mouths and thoughts in their heads, do you know that? You think you understand everything, and you will not accept anyone's thoughts or feelings for what they are unless they fit into your analysis. On a lighter note, if there's a word for someone like this, you probably know what it is.[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, I just have no idea what it is. Care to tell me?

One thing you have to keep in mind is, that I'm usually always right, [i]especially[/i] when it comes to Interpretive/Literary Theory, because I've been intensely studying it for years now, and when I give an interpretation of a particular work, it's because that's the actual meaning behind the work. This is no different.

After we establish that your interpretation is a half-baked one to begin with, then we begin asking why you created this thread, and why you insist on drawing it out, and our conclusion is a rather easy one:

Your ego. This thread is an ego trip for you, and you can't stand to be proven wrong about this, and you are being proven wrong about this. That bothers you immensely, even though you don't consciously realize it. Your subconscious is eating away at you here, and you can feel that, and we all know that you feel it.

This is common sense, Adahn, don't fight it.

[QUOTE]I will admit one thing to you, Siren. The only thing I got from the book as a whole was reincarnation. I could pull things out to try and explain it, but what I got was more of a feeling. My feelings, by the way, tend to be correct.[/QUOTE][i]Feelings are not reality[/i], nor are they truth. They're subjective viewpoints, which do not treat a situation as it should be treated: without pretext of emotional investment.

A former friend of mine is a perfect example of that.

Many here know the story of RPCrazy's mental degeneration, so I'll spare the gory details. But we're all aware that it's perfectly natural for someone to spend more time with a new significant other than time spent with friends. It's how things work. It's a process of life. We all know this.

Yet, she deluded herself into believing that I somehow betrayed her by asking this girl out. I'll provide the links to RPCrazy's DeadJournals if you'd like. She denied being to blame for the collapse of the friendships, wanting to blame me, and then hating Melissa with a furied passion. She's obsessed over this for quite some time, and still hates me with every fibre of her being. She thinks of me as the Devil, and I'm not exaggerating at all.

Feelings are never right when they're based on such a twisted misinterpretation of a source material, whether it's the Dating Situation, or this religious discussion.

Feelings mean absolutely nothing here, because they cannot--absolutely cannot--be submitted as proof, evidence, etc.

People can have hunches, yes, but those hunches must be backed up with hard evidence (as "hard" as Biblical evidence can be), they must remain solid when scrutinized, and their conclusion must be arrived logically, with full consideration to all pieces of information.

You have failed to meet these criteria.

[QUOTE]I'm actually curious to know where you learned that.[/QUOTE]It's called four or five semesters of rigorous Literary study of religious texts.

[QUOTE]That's all I can do, when people are looking for evidence to substantiate my claim. If you want a broad look at it, here it is. The prophecies are so blatantly obvious that we'd have to degrade ourselves to complete idiocy as a race to miss those signs.[/QUOTE]If that's all you can do, then that should tell you that you've got a crap thesis. First rule of Lit Theory: If your thesis can't be supported by the [i]whole[/i] text, that's a sign that your thesis needs serious revision. This isn't only coming from me. This comes from very experienced Lit professors.

"So blatantly obvious that we'd have to degrade ourselves to complete idiocy as a race to miss those signs."

Second rule of Lit Theory: Never deal in abstractions or vague, open-ended claims. Use specific examples but under no circumstances violate Rule #1.

[quote]Well, if it's broader aspects you'd like, I'll do my best to give them to you.

If there's anything you'd like a broader interpretation of, please, [b]don't hesitate to ask[/b].[/QUOTE]Notice that everyone here has been asking you all along to provide broader examples/interpretations (Ben and Boba Fett, for example, just in their most recent posts). Adahn, just admit defeat, dude. You've got nowhere else to run to, and you keep repeating these blank, vague, meaningless sayings.

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=#008000']Get over yourself and admit your ideas are pure ********.[/color][/quote]I second that.

EDIT: Here's how your interpretation is bunk, Adahn:

[quote]aestenAIM (11:06:16 PM): What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Adahn1986 (11:06:29 PM): who am I to say?
aestenAIM (11:06:37 PM): Then who are you to say about this?
Adahn1986 (11:06:59 PM): Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
aestenAIM (11:07:23 PM): But what was the saying, Adahn, and don't put your little spin on it this time. :-)
Adahn1986 (11:07:44 PM): what was what saying?
Adahn1986 (11:07:49 PM): *confused*
aestenAIM (11:07:54 PM): "keep my saying"
aestenAIM (11:07:57 PM): What was the saying?
Adahn1986 (11:07:58 PM): ah
Adahn1986 (11:08:20 PM): Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Adahn1986 (11:08:22 PM): that one
aestenAIM (11:08:43 PM): Revelation still hadn't happened at this point.
Adahn1986 (11:08:53 PM): nope
Adahn1986 (11:08:55 PM): he hadn't died yet
aestenAIM (11:09:24 PM): No, Christ died, and they were waiting for his second coming, Revelation, when he, in the form of the Lamb, would bring about the final judgment.
aestenAIM (11:09:43 PM): Revelation is the death he's talking about.
aestenAIM (11:10:00 PM): After the mortals die, they are judged during Revelation.
Adahn1986 (11:10:01 PM): I always thought Jesus said he wouldn't come with outward show
aestenAIM (11:10:04 PM): "From Death unto life"
aestenAIM (11:10:33 PM): It's not replacing Death.
aestenAIM (11:10:39 PM): It's bringing them from Death.
aestenAIM (11:10:42 PM): As in,
aestenAIM (11:10:53 PM): During Revelation, the dead rise for the judgment.
aestenAIM (11:11:12 PM): If they are redeemed, they are lifted out from Death, into life/bliss/happiness.
aestenAIM (11:11:22 PM): That's what that quote means.
aestenAIM (11:11:35 PM): And Revelation (The PROPHECY) hadn't happened yet.
aestenAIM (11:11:37 PM): Hence...
aestenAIM (11:11:43 PM): Why it's a vision.
Adahn1986 (11:13:12 PM): you gave me what I needed
Adahn1986 (11:13:14 PM): 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Adahn1986 (11:13:33 PM): when the revelation was given
aestenAIM (11:13:40 PM): No, that's the vision of it.
aestenAIM (11:13:45 PM): It's not actually happening.
aestenAIM (11:13:51 PM): It's a hallucination of sorts.
aestenAIM (11:13:55 PM): A...holy hallucination.
Adahn1986 (11:14:07 PM): 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass
Adahn1986 (11:14:15 PM): these things were going to happen
Adahn1986 (11:14:19 PM): very quickly after the vision
aestenAIM (11:14:21 PM): "Shortly come to pass" means they didn't happen yet.
Adahn1986 (11:14:24 PM): the time is at hand
Adahn1986 (11:14:31 PM): at the time of the vision
aestenAIM (11:14:34 PM): Don't think of the time as how we know it, either.
Adahn1986 (11:14:35 PM): revelation hadn't happened
Adahn1986 (11:14:57 PM): he was speaking to man
aestenAIM (11:15:00 PM): You know of the whole Creationist problem?
Adahn1986 (11:15:12 PM): what's the whole creationist problem?
aestenAIM (11:15:15 PM): 7 days does not equal 350 billion years?
Adahn1986 (11:15:19 PM): that's easy
Adahn1986 (11:15:24 PM): God's perception of time
aestenAIM (11:15:35 PM): And that's why Revelation wasn't going to happen anytime soon.
Adahn1986 (11:15:41 PM): he was speaking to man
aestenAIM (11:15:41 PM): At least, not in human perception of time.
Adahn1986 (11:15:52 PM): why would he not give time in man's perspective?
aestenAIM (11:15:53 PM): In God's perception, it was right around the corner.
aestenAIM (11:16:02 PM): Because he's freaking God, that's why.
aestenAIM (11:16:13 PM): He's always talked in his own terms.
aestenAIM (11:16:25 PM): Plus, dramatic effect.
Adahn1986 (11:16:28 PM): lol
Adahn1986 (11:16:32 PM): You're interpreting now
aestenAIM (11:16:39 PM): Am I?
aestenAIM (11:16:43 PM): Revelation is important ****.
Adahn1986 (11:16:53 PM): is it not possible that he was talking to man?
aestenAIM (11:16:59 PM): You want to be sure to give man the necessary prep time,
Adahn1986 (11:17:04 PM): using time as it was relevant?
Adahn1986 (11:17:07 PM): ha
aestenAIM (11:17:10 PM): and also impress upon him the importance.
Adahn1986 (11:17:12 PM): let me find it
aestenAIM (11:17:18 PM): ::Groans::
Adahn1986 (11:17:22 PM): meh
Adahn1986 (11:17:27 PM): I don't need the actual thing
aestenAIM (11:17:29 PM): Fact remains, Adahn, Revelation was a long ways off.
Adahn1986 (11:17:32 PM): it said let the liars still lie
Adahn1986 (11:17:38 PM): whores still whore themselves
Adahn1986 (11:17:50 PM): how is that a fact?
Adahn1986 (11:18:00 PM): You're only assuming that God was speaking on his own terms of time
aestenAIM (11:18:07 PM): Genesis, dude, Genesis.
Adahn1986 (11:18:12 PM): this isn't genesis
aestenAIM (11:18:27 PM): Another example of a short time described that actually was much, much longer.
Adahn1986 (11:18:36 PM): good, you have a precedent
aestenAIM (11:18:45 PM): I've always had a precedent.
Adahn1986 (11:18:51 PM): however
aestenAIM (11:18:56 PM): However, nothing.
Adahn1986 (11:19:03 PM): Is it impossible that he's speaking on man's terms?
aestenAIM (11:19:31 PM): Yes. Impossible.
aestenAIM (11:19:42 PM): The track record is there of God speaking in his own terms.
Adahn1986 (11:19:56 PM): He's speaking to man, here, of something that concerns man
aestenAIM (11:20:16 PM): Say you're God, and you've got this Revelation in store for mankind.
aestenAIM (11:20:45 PM): Are you going to say, "Oh, it's a few millenia away still," or, "It's coming very shortly, and you must prepare thineself."
aestenAIM (11:20:56 PM): Which do you say?
Adahn1986 (11:21:04 PM): hmm
Adahn1986 (11:21:07 PM): I'm god, now?
aestenAIM (11:21:14 PM): Hypothetically speaking.
Adahn1986 (11:21:22 PM): and I'm going to reveal something
Adahn1986 (11:22:18 PM): I sure would be a tricky S.O.B. if I made everyone think the end of the world was going to happen thousands of years from now
Adahn1986 (11:22:29 PM): if it were really coming soon
Adahn1986 (11:23:05 PM): One reason revelation doesn't make sense to me as a prophecy
Adahn1986 (11:23:11 PM): is that it would all be fairly obvious
Adahn1986 (11:23:31 PM): everyone says the end of the world is coming soon
Adahn1986 (11:23:36 PM): especially now
aestenAIM (11:23:44 PM): Look at it from the perspective back then.
aestenAIM (11:23:47 PM): Man's learning as he goes.
aestenAIM (11:23:53 PM): He doesn't have the insight we do now.
aestenAIM (11:24:03 PM): He couldn't predict the plot twist in say...The Usual Suspects.
Adahn1986 (11:24:16 PM): Man was alot smarter than you may think
aestenAIM (11:24:25 PM): Not this smart.
Adahn1986 (11:24:49 PM): is it God's usual strategy to make things easy to understand?
aestenAIM (11:25:06 PM): Pretty much, yes.
aestenAIM (11:25:12 PM): If I recall the term...
Adahn1986 (11:25:15 PM): How did the Pharisees go wrong?
aestenAIM (11:25:33 PM): ...what was it...
aestenAIM (11:25:54 PM): There's an actual term for how God reveals himself in the Bible.
Adahn1986 (11:26:16 PM): Today's Christians are yesterday's Pharisees
aestenAIM (11:26:22 PM): No.
Adahn1986 (11:26:23 PM): history repeats itself
aestenAIM (11:26:27 PM): No.
Adahn1986 (11:26:30 PM): no?
aestenAIM (11:26:56 PM): It was...Progressive Revelatory Comprehension, I think.
aestenAIM (11:26:59 PM): Something to that effect.
Adahn1986 (11:27:14 PM): oh
Adahn1986 (11:27:25 PM): I wasn't guessing
aestenAIM (11:27:34 PM): I'm sure you weren
aestenAIM (11:27:38 PM): I'm sure you weren't.
Adahn1986 (11:27:48 PM): so, today's Christians can't be yesterday's Pharisees?
aestenAIM (11:28:07 PM): Would you like to know about PRC?
Adahn1986 (11:28:11 PM): sure
aestenAIM (11:28:26 PM): As man progressed, God's delivery changed.
aestenAIM (11:28:36 PM): In Genesis, he's pretty much straight-up.
aestenAIM (11:28:43 PM): "Don't do this."
Adahn1986 (11:28:52 PM): *nods*
aestenAIM (11:28:59 PM): Because, let's face it. Adam and Eve were half-wits.
Adahn1986 (11:29:03 PM): lol
aestenAIM (11:29:04 PM): Adam, especially.
Adahn1986 (11:29:05 PM): yes
aestenAIM (11:29:46 PM): As time goes on, God becomes a bit more...creative in his delivery, because man's comprehension and ability with visual/sound is increasing in some degree.
Adahn1986 (11:29:54 PM): *nods*
aestenAIM (11:30:18 PM): The Burning Bush and Moses is an example of how God is updating his delivery.
aestenAIM (11:30:29 PM): It's not totally overt, but it's still there.
Adahn1986 (11:30:37 PM): yes
aestenAIM (11:31:08 PM): Now, by the time of the NT, mankind isn't quite where they need to be.
aestenAIM (11:31:17 PM): Hell, they're slapping Jesus around.
Adahn1986 (11:31:21 PM): yes
aestenAIM (11:31:25 PM): Subtlety isn't going to work here.
aestenAIM (11:31:45 PM): That's why even though Revelation is a prophecy of something taking place millenia in the future,
aestenAIM (11:31:53 PM): God still says, "Shortly coming."
aestenAIM (11:32:43 PM): Man doesn't have the social skills, as it were, to be able to understand the implications, and to adequately prepare for them, of Revelation in the millennia.
aestenAIM (11:33:02 PM): Thus, God has to make sure to make a big impression.
aestenAIM (11:33:07 PM): Otherwise,
aestenAIM (11:33:09 PM): Man just won't get it.
Adahn1986 (11:33:21 PM): that's alot of thinking
aestenAIM (11:33:23 PM): That's what PRC.
aestenAIM (11:33:28 PM): That's what PRC is.
Adahn1986 (11:33:47 PM): By the Christian definition, would I not still go to heaven if I were to die?
aestenAIM (11:34:06 PM): Were you redeemed or not?
Adahn1986 (11:34:10 PM): Yes
aestenAIM (11:34:27 PM): Then you'd die, but you wouldn't get plunged into Hell or go up to Heaven until Revelation.
aestenAIM (11:34:45 PM): I have a feeling that's relevant to Lazarus, too.
Adahn1986 (11:34:51 PM): ah
Adahn1986 (11:34:54 PM): purgatory?
Adahn1986 (11:34:55 PM): *shudders*
aestenAIM (11:35:04 PM): If you wanted to go Divine Comedy, sure.
Adahn1986 (11:35:07 PM): lol
aestenAIM (11:35:25 PM): Even though I'm not a fan of religious doctrine,
aestenAIM (11:35:31 PM): Christianity isn't all that bad.
Adahn1986 (11:35:36 PM): and, barring how retarded I am, how is it bad that I believe what I do?
aestenAIM (11:36:02 PM): Because you're seeing a flaw in a system that's pretty tightly and well constructed.
aestenAIM (11:36:17 PM): A flaw that isn't there when you actually consider everything and how it all fits together.
Adahn1986 (11:36:25 PM): it would have to
Adahn1986 (11:36:29 PM): it's been around for so long
aestenAIM (11:36:50 PM): 2000 years and nobody's found that "problem" you're claiming to have found should tell you something.
Adahn1986 (11:36:59 PM): pharisees...
aestenAIM (11:37:01 PM): And religious scholars have been at it, too.
Adahn1986 (11:37:23 PM): how many thousands of years did they believe in "eye for an eye" among other things?
Adahn1986 (11:37:41 PM): including but not limited to an unbelief in any resurrection of the dead
Adahn1986 (11:37:51 PM): they had a tight-knit system
Adahn1986 (11:37:59 PM): and history repeats itself
aestenAIM (11:38:10 PM): Let's talk about eye for an eye, then.
Adahn1986 (11:38:14 PM): sure
aestenAIM (11:38:22 PM): What's the problem with the punishment fits the crime?
Adahn1986 (11:38:35 PM): they took that as if it came from God
Adahn1986 (11:38:39 PM): law is evil
aestenAIM (11:38:50 PM): Law isn't evil.
Adahn1986 (11:38:52 PM): 1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
Adahn1986 (11:38:55 PM): sure it is
aestenAIM (11:39:08 PM): When the law is just, it's fine.
Adahn1986 (11:39:18 PM): just laws are hard to come by
aestenAIM (11:39:19 PM): What "law" could they be referring to there?
Adahn1986 (11:39:24 PM): I can think of 10 laws
Adahn1986 (11:39:35 PM): they speak of vengeance
Adahn1986 (11:39:37 PM): quite simply
aestenAIM (11:40:36 PM): Could it be possible that the "law" spoken of there is referring to the Roman law?
Adahn1986 (11:41:00 PM): sounds Roman
Adahn1986 (11:41:05 PM): I know it's greek, at the very least
aestenAIM (11:41:08 PM): And what did Romans do?
Adahn1986 (11:41:27 PM): Romans probably used eye for an eye
aestenAIM (11:41:32 PM): Not quite.
Adahn1986 (11:41:35 PM): no?
aestenAIM (11:41:44 PM): Feeding Christians to lions, perhaps?
Adahn1986 (11:41:47 PM): *has romans next term*
Adahn1986 (11:42:00 PM): I'll learn all that next term
Adahn1986 (11:42:02 PM): all I know is greek
aestenAIM (11:42:05 PM): The Romans killed Christ, as well.
aestenAIM (11:42:17 PM): The Romans weren't cotton candy, fine and dandy.
aestenAIM (11:42:33 PM): The "Law" spoken of in that excerpt is referring to the Romans.
aestenAIM (11:42:45 PM): The Romans were just shy of being malicious fascists.
Adahn1986 (11:43:29 PM): I need to sleep
aestenAIM (11:43:38 PM): Think about it, though.
Adahn1986 (11:43:50 PM): I'll save the conversation
aestenAIM (11:43:51 PM): Christianity is pretty solid.
Adahn1986 (11:44:25 PM): except
Adahn1986 (11:44:30 PM): I'll get to it later
Adahn1986 (11:44:31 PM): lol
Adahn1986 (11:44:33 PM): goodnight
aestenAIM (11:44:38 PM): Night.
Adahn1986 signed off at 11:44:47 PM.[/quote]
EDIT:

[quote name='Adahn']It is an interpretation.[/quote]
Bull. You never said, "This is my take on things." From the start, you immediately started claiming that you had found the true Truth in the Bible. Don't pull that crap.

[Boba Fett]

[color=green]I?d rather be general than go point by point over 13 pages of rambling?

But I?ll look at a few.

[QUOTE=Adahn][I]Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.[/I]

If Christ lives within us, how is it that we can die? Jesus cannot die, therefore when we die, he cannot be with us. If he is not with us, then we certainly cannot get into heaven. We have to take what he said literally.[/QUOTE]

You take this to mean that since Jesus lives within each of us, we cannot ?die?, since death has been destroyed (so instead we reincarnate and hopefully accept Jesus in our next life, or the cycle repeats), right?

So how come the world?s population is growing? If we?re all reincarnated, and Armageddon has already happened, wouldn?t only those worthy be ?alive? in this repeating cycle of reincarnation? Wouldn?t reproduction foil the whole idea of God finding each of us worthy?[/color]

[QUOTE=Adahn][I]1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.[/I]

This is pretty straightforward. No more death. Not much interpretation. Jesus destroyed death, so we wouldn't have to endure it any longer. Of course, you can still die if you deny that he destroyed it. Your choice.[/QUOTE]

[color=green]But how can you be certain Jesus destroyed death already? You?ve said that the events of Revelations have already come to pass, but what proof do you have?

I take this to mean that, at some point in the future, god will destroy death and proceed to judge all those who have died.[/color]

[QUOTE=Adahn]Christians have more faith in death than they do of getting into heaven. Jesus' purpose was to come here, take away sin [I]and death[/I], and show us the truth man failed to find in the old testament. Go ahead, tell me which you have more faith in. Do you believe more in death, or in life?

[I]Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.[/I]

And you tell me you must die. You have no faith, all your glory is in death. I've moved my mountain, and you wait for yours to come crashing down on you.[/QUOTE]

[color=green]Jesus destroyed death by offering sinners a chance at redemption through following of his word. He didn?t destroy hell, which is the destination for all non-believers. I still don?t see how this supports reincarnation.


I don?t suppose asking some direct questions to a priest and posting his answers here would convince you would it? I?m fast tiring of this argument.[/color]

[Adahn]

[quote name='Siren]One thing you have to keep in mind is, that I'm usually always right, [i]especially[/i'] when it comes to Interpretive/Literary Theory, because I've been intensely studying it for years now, and when I give an interpretation of a particular work, it's because that's the actual meaning behind the work. This is no different.[/quote][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]This is different because we're not talking about a literary work. You're putting motives behind my ideas, when you don't know anything about what goes on in my head. Despite what you may think, what goes on up here is more complex than anything you have read or could even begin to understand. I could say the same of anyone's mind.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
After we establish that your interpretation is a half-baked one to begin with, then we begin asking why you created this thread, and why you insist on drawing it out, and our conclusion is a rather easy one:

Your ego. This thread is an ego trip for you, and you can't stand to be proven wrong about this, and you are being proven wrong about this. That bothers you immensely, even though you don't consciously realize it. Your subconscious is eating away at you here, and you can feel that, and we all know that you feel it.

This is common sense, Adahn, don't fight it.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This is not about my ego. You're not asking why I created the thread, you're telling me why I created it, because everyone knows that you're omnipotent and you can spot motives with your eyes closed.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
[i]Feelings are not reality[/i], nor are they truth. They're subjective viewpoints, which do not treat a situation as it should be treated: without pretext of emotional investment.:[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It was an impression I got from reading. That's all I was doing, just reading my Bible. After I got the impression, I found what caused that impression, and realized that my feelings were backed up by what was written. There was no emotional investment. I wasn't looking for some unknown truth in the Bible to feed my ever-hungry ego, but I found one anyway.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Feelings are never right when they're based on such a twisted misinterpretation of a source material, whether it's the Dating Situation, or this religious discussion.

Feelings mean absolutely nothing here, because they cannot--absolutely cannot--be submitted as proof, evidence, etc.

People can have hunches, yes, but those hunches must be backed up with hard evidence (as "hard" as Biblical evidence can be), they must remain solid when scrutinized, and their conclusion must be arrived logically, with full consideration to all pieces of information.

You have failed to meet these criteria.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I've failed to bend my knee to you in defeat, because I'm not wrong, but you can't accept that. In order for your world to stay intact, I have to be wrong. If you want me to find where I got the feeling, and where I got all the evidence, I'd have to read the whole Bible over again and find the spot where it became clear to me, and I don't have that kind of time on my hands.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
It's called four or five semesters of rigorous Literary study of religious texts.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I have this annoying disability where I must be presented with an idea before I can learn anything about it.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
If that's all you can do, then that should tell you that you've got a crap thesis. First rule of Lit Theory: If your thesis can't be supported by the [i]whole[/i] text, that's a sign that your thesis needs serious revision. This isn't only coming from me. This comes from very experienced Lit professors.

"So blatantly obvious that we'd have to degrade ourselves to complete idiocy as a race to miss those signs."

Second rule of Lit Theory: Never deal in abstractions or vague, open-ended claims. Use specific examples but under no circumstances violate Rule #1.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]We're dealing with the Bible, and my theory sure can't be disproven, so it's as viable as any other interpretation. Oh, I was talking about everyone needing to have the sign of the devil in order to purchase food or other things. You'd have to be completely retarded to miss that sign.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Notice that everyone here has been asking you all along to provide broader examples/interpretations (Ben and Boba Fett, for example, just in their most recent posts). Adahn, just admit defeat, dude. You've got nowhere else to run to, and you keep repeating these blank, vague, meaningless sayings.

EDIT: Here's how your interpretation is bunk, Adahn:[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Well, show me how my sayings are blank and meaningless. Nobody has taken any quote from the Bible that I've given here and thrown it back at me with another interpretation. As for our little conversation, I'm not lying when I say I was tired to the point of complete idiocy. If you think I'm making it up, ask Jordan.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]EDIT: No good can come of any more discussion, know that this is my last post on this thread, and be satisfied with yourselves, if you desire. I really don't care to try anymore. Perhaps I'll try again some other time, and perhaps a Christian or two will see fit to reply.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Ben]

A Christian or two [I]has[/I] saw fit to reply. You just sort of ignored us. =/

[quote name='Adahn']We're dealing with the Bible, and my theory sure can't be disproven, so it's as viable as any other interpretation.[/quote]

I believe we've been disproving it right and left. You've just refused to accept our evidence, or toss it aside as inconsequential.

EDIT: Never mind then. [strike]The heretic's[/strike] Adahn's given up.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']This is different because we're not talking about a literary work.[/quote]The Bible is a Literary work. It's no different than Gilgamesh, Iliad, or Beowulf. The Bible is Literature. There's no way around that.

[QUOTE]You're putting motives behind my ideas, when you don't know anything about what goes on in my head. Despite what you may think, [b]what goes on up here is more complex than anything you have read or could even begin to understand[/b]. I could say the same of anyone's mind.[/QUOTE]You're bristling.

[QUOTE]This is not about my ego. You're not asking why I created the thread, you're telling me why I created it, [b]because everyone knows that you're omnipotent and you can spot motives with your eyes closed[/b].[/QUOTE]Sarcasm. You're bristling even more.

[QUOTE]It was an impression I got from reading. That's all I was doing, just reading my Bible. After I got the impression, I found what caused that impression, and realized that my feelings were backed up by what was written. There was no emotional investment. I wasn't looking for some unknown truth in the Bible to feed my ever-hungry ego, but I found one anyway.[/QUOTE]But you weren't reading the entire writing. You were reading small, tiny bits. That's not proper Lit Theory. After you found little, tiny pieces that mildly supported your feelings, you felt all warm and fuzzy, because you thought you had uncovered some "truth" that nobody else ever did. You're in love with your "perfect" idea, Adahn, lol. You can't bear to part with it, and you can't bear the thought that maybe, just maybe, you have no idea what you're talking about, lol.

I think that's a pretty substantial emotional investment.

[QUOTE]I've failed to bend my knee to you in defeat, because I'm not wrong, but you can't accept that. In order for your world to stay intact, I have to be wrong. If you want me to find where I got the feeling, and where I got all the evidence, I'd have to read the whole Bible over again and find the spot where it became clear to me, and I don't have that kind of time on my hands.[/QUOTE]If you had a point here, it was lost in the egotistical preaching. You still haven't proven a thing, because you're picking and choosing little tidbits and thinking that's enough. It isn't. You're going to have to go into the entire Bible and give us entire passages, entire Books, entire portions of the scripture that support your claim. If you can't do that (I suspect it's because you know it's impossible to look at the whole thing and still be able to support your thesis), then tough sh-t.

[QUOTE]I have this annoying disability where I must be presented with an idea before I can learn anything about it.[/QUOTE]You were presented with PRC, so learn about it and accept it.

[QUOTE]We're dealing with the Bible, and my theory sure can't be disproven, so it's as viable as any other interpretation. Oh, I was talking about everyone needing to have the sign of the devil in order to purchase food or other things.[/quote]I went through the singular lines concerning Revelation that you quoted and disproved your theory about Revelation.

[quote]You'd have to be completely retarded to miss that sign.[/QUOTE]Missed what sign? Are you implying that I'm completely retarded here? What are you trying to say?

[quote]Well, show me how my sayings are blank and meaningless. [b]Nobody has taken any quote from the Bible that I've given here and thrown it back at me with another interpretation.[/b] As for our little conversation, I'm not lying when I say I was tired to the point of complete idiocy. If you think I'm making it up, ask Jordan.[/QUOTE]Nobody, eh?

[url="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=43381&page=11&pp=15"][u]Page 11 - Ben, Boba Fett, and myself[/u][/url]

[url="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=43381&page=12&pp=15"][u]Page 12 - Ben, and myself[/u][/url]

[url="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=43381&page=13&pp=15"][u]Page 13 - Boba Fett, Ben, and myself[/u][/url]

Let's not forget the entire IM you and I had, where I took your entire interpretation and threw it back in your face:

[quote]Adahn1986 (11:08:20 PM): Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Adahn1986 (11:08:22 PM): that one
aestenAIM (11:08:43 PM): Revelation still hadn't happened at this point.
Adahn1986 (11:08:53 PM): nope
Adahn1986 (11:08:55 PM): he hadn't died yet
aestenAIM (11:09:24 PM): No, Christ died, and they were waiting for his second coming, Revelation, when he, in the form of the Lamb, would bring about the final judgment.
aestenAIM (11:09:43 PM): Revelation is the death he's talking about.
aestenAIM (11:10:00 PM): After the mortals die, they are judged during Revelation.
Adahn1986 (11:10:01 PM): I always thought Jesus said he wouldn't come with outward show
aestenAIM (11:10:04 PM): "From Death unto life"
aestenAIM (11:10:33 PM): It's not replacing Death.
aestenAIM (11:10:39 PM): It's bringing them from Death.
aestenAIM (11:10:42 PM): As in,
aestenAIM (11:10:53 PM): During Revelation, the dead rise for the judgment.
aestenAIM (11:11:12 PM): If they are redeemed, they are lifted out from Death, into life/bliss/happiness.
aestenAIM (11:11:22 PM): That's what that quote means.
aestenAIM (11:11:35 PM): And Revelation (The PROPHECY) hadn't happened yet.
aestenAIM (11:11:37 PM): Hence...
aestenAIM (11:11:43 PM): Why it's a vision.
Adahn1986 (11:13:12 PM): you gave me what I needed
Adahn1986 (11:13:14 PM): 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Adahn1986 (11:13:33 PM): when the revelation was given
aestenAIM (11:13:40 PM): No, that's the vision of it.
aestenAIM (11:13:45 PM): It's not actually happening.
aestenAIM (11:13:51 PM): It's a hallucination of sorts.
aestenAIM (11:13:55 PM): A...holy hallucination.
Adahn1986 (11:14:07 PM): 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass
Adahn1986 (11:14:15 PM): these things were going to happen
Adahn1986 (11:14:19 PM): very quickly after the vision
aestenAIM (11:14:21 PM): "Shortly come to pass" means they didn't happen yet.
Adahn1986 (11:14:24 PM): the time is at hand
Adahn1986 (11:14:31 PM): at the time of the vision
aestenAIM (11:14:34 PM): Don't think of the time as how we know it, either.
Adahn1986 (11:14:35 PM): revelation hadn't happened
Adahn1986 (11:14:57 PM): he was speaking to man
aestenAIM (11:15:00 PM): You know of the whole Creationist problem?
Adahn1986 (11:15:12 PM): what's the whole creationist problem?
aestenAIM (11:15:15 PM): 7 days does not equal 350 billion years?
Adahn1986 (11:15:19 PM): that's easy
Adahn1986 (11:15:24 PM): God's perception of time
aestenAIM (11:15:35 PM): And that's why Revelation wasn't going to happen anytime soon.
Adahn1986 (11:15:41 PM): he was speaking to man
aestenAIM (11:15:41 PM): At least, not in human perception of time.
Adahn1986 (11:15:52 PM): why would he not give time in man's perspective?
aestenAIM (11:15:53 PM): In God's perception, it was right around the corner.
aestenAIM (11:16:02 PM): Because he's freaking God, that's why.
aestenAIM (11:16:13 PM): He's always talked in his own terms.
aestenAIM (11:16:25 PM): Plus, dramatic effect.
Adahn1986 (11:16:28 PM): lol
Adahn1986 (11:16:32 PM): You're interpreting now
aestenAIM (11:16:39 PM): Am I?
aestenAIM (11:16:43 PM): Revelation is important ****.
Adahn1986 (11:16:53 PM): is it not possible that he was talking to man?
aestenAIM (11:16:59 PM): You want to be sure to give man the necessary prep time,
Adahn1986 (11:17:04 PM): using time as it was relevant?
Adahn1986 (11:17:07 PM): ha
aestenAIM (11:17:10 PM): and also impress upon him the importance.
Adahn1986 (11:17:12 PM): let me find it
aestenAIM (11:17:18 PM): ::Groans::
Adahn1986 (11:17:22 PM): meh
Adahn1986 (11:17:27 PM): I don't need the actual thing
aestenAIM (11:17:29 PM): Fact remains, Adahn, Revelation was a long ways off.
Adahn1986 (11:17:32 PM): it said let the liars still lie
Adahn1986 (11:17:38 PM): whores still whore themselves
Adahn1986 (11:17:50 PM): how is that a fact?
Adahn1986 (11:18:00 PM): You're only assuming that God was speaking on his own terms of time
aestenAIM (11:18:07 PM): Genesis, dude, Genesis.
Adahn1986 (11:18:12 PM): this isn't genesis
aestenAIM (11:18:27 PM): Another example of a short time described that actually was much, much longer.
Adahn1986 (11:18:36 PM): good, you have a precedent
aestenAIM (11:18:45 PM): I've always had a precedent.
Adahn1986 (11:18:51 PM): however
aestenAIM (11:18:56 PM): However, nothing.
Adahn1986 (11:19:03 PM): Is it impossible that he's speaking on man's terms?
aestenAIM (11:19:31 PM): Yes. Impossible.
aestenAIM (11:19:42 PM): The track record is there of God speaking in his own terms.
Adahn1986 (11:19:56 PM): He's speaking to man, here, of something that concerns man
aestenAIM (11:20:16 PM): Say you're God, and you've got this Revelation in store for mankind.
aestenAIM (11:20:45 PM): Are you going to say, "Oh, it's a few millenia away still," or, "It's coming very shortly, and you must prepare thineself."
aestenAIM (11:20:56 PM): Which do you say?
Adahn1986 (11:21:04 PM): hmm
Adahn1986 (11:21:07 PM): I'm god, now?
aestenAIM (11:21:14 PM): Hypothetically speaking.
Adahn1986 (11:21:22 PM): and I'm going to reveal something
Adahn1986 (11:22:18 PM): I sure would be a tricky S.O.B. if I made everyone think the end of the world was going to happen thousands of years from now
Adahn1986 (11:22:29 PM): if it were really coming soon
Adahn1986 (11:23:05 PM): One reason revelation doesn't make sense to me as a prophecy
Adahn1986 (11:23:11 PM): is that it would all be fairly obvious
Adahn1986 (11:23:31 PM): everyone says the end of the world is coming soon
Adahn1986 (11:23:36 PM): especially now
aestenAIM (11:23:44 PM): Look at it from the perspective back then.
aestenAIM (11:23:47 PM): Man's learning as he goes.
aestenAIM (11:23:53 PM): He doesn't have the insight we do now.
aestenAIM (11:24:03 PM): He couldn't predict the plot twist in say...The Usual Suspects.
Adahn1986 (11:24:16 PM): Man was alot smarter than you may think
aestenAIM (11:24:25 PM): Not this smart.
Adahn1986 (11:24:49 PM): is it God's usual strategy to make things easy to understand?
aestenAIM (11:25:06 PM): Pretty much, yes.
aestenAIM (11:25:12 PM): If I recall the term...
Adahn1986 (11:25:15 PM): How did the Pharisees go wrong?
aestenAIM (11:25:33 PM): ...what was it...
aestenAIM (11:25:54 PM): There's an actual term for how God reveals himself in the Bible.
Adahn1986 (11:26:16 PM): Today's Christians are yesterday's Pharisees
aestenAIM (11:26:22 PM): No.
Adahn1986 (11:26:23 PM): history repeats itself
aestenAIM (11:26:27 PM): No.
Adahn1986 (11:26:30 PM): no?
aestenAIM (11:26:56 PM): It was...Progressive Revelatory Comprehension, I think.
aestenAIM (11:26:59 PM): Something to that effect.
Adahn1986 (11:27:14 PM): oh
Adahn1986 (11:27:25 PM): I wasn't guessing
aestenAIM (11:27:34 PM): I'm sure you weren
aestenAIM (11:27:38 PM): I'm sure you weren't.
Adahn1986 (11:27:48 PM): so, today's Christians can't be yesterday's Pharisees?
aestenAIM (11:28:07 PM): Would you like to know about PRC?
Adahn1986 (11:28:11 PM): sure
aestenAIM (11:28:26 PM): As man progressed, God's delivery changed.
aestenAIM (11:28:36 PM): In Genesis, he's pretty much straight-up.
aestenAIM (11:28:43 PM): "Don't do this."
Adahn1986 (11:28:52 PM): *nods*
aestenAIM (11:28:59 PM): Because, let's face it. Adam and Eve were half-wits.
Adahn1986 (11:29:03 PM): lol
aestenAIM (11:29:04 PM): Adam, especially.
Adahn1986 (11:29:05 PM): yes
aestenAIM (11:29:46 PM): As time goes on, God becomes a bit more...creative in his delivery, because man's comprehension and ability with visual/sound is increasing in some degree.
Adahn1986 (11:29:54 PM): *nods*
aestenAIM (11:30:18 PM): The Burning Bush and Moses is an example of how God is updating his delivery.
aestenAIM (11:30:29 PM): It's not totally overt, but it's still there.
Adahn1986 (11:30:37 PM): yes
aestenAIM (11:31:08 PM): Now, by the time of the NT, mankind isn't quite where they need to be.
aestenAIM (11:31:17 PM): Hell, they're slapping Jesus around.
Adahn1986 (11:31:21 PM): yes
aestenAIM (11:31:25 PM): Subtlety isn't going to work here.
aestenAIM (11:31:45 PM): That's why even though Revelation is a prophecy of something taking place millenia in the future,
aestenAIM (11:31:53 PM): God still says, "Shortly coming."
aestenAIM (11:32:43 PM): Man doesn't have the social skills, as it were, to be able to understand the implications, and to adequately prepare for them, of Revelation in the millennia.
aestenAIM (11:33:02 PM): Thus, God has to make sure to make a big impression.
aestenAIM (11:33:07 PM): Otherwise,
aestenAIM (11:33:09 PM): Man just won't get it.
Adahn1986 (11:33:21 PM): that's alot of thinking
aestenAIM (11:33:23 PM): That's what PRC.
aestenAIM (11:33:28 PM): That's what PRC is.
Adahn1986 (11:33:47 PM): By the Christian definition, would I not still go to heaven if I were to die?
aestenAIM (11:34:06 PM): Were you redeemed or not?
Adahn1986 (11:34:10 PM): Yes
aestenAIM (11:34:27 PM): Then you'd die, but you wouldn't get plunged into Hell or go up to Heaven until Revelation.
aestenAIM (11:34:45 PM): I have a feeling that's relevant to Lazarus, too.
Adahn1986 (11:34:51 PM): ah
Adahn1986 (11:34:54 PM): purgatory?
Adahn1986 (11:34:55 PM): *shudders*
aestenAIM (11:35:04 PM): If you wanted to go Divine Comedy, sure.
Adahn1986 (11:35:07 PM): lol
aestenAIM (11:35:25 PM): Even though I'm not a fan of religious doctrine,
aestenAIM (11:35:31 PM): Christianity isn't all that bad.
Adahn1986 (11:35:36 PM): and, barring how retarded I am, how is it bad that I believe what I do?
aestenAIM (11:36:02 PM): Because you're seeing a flaw in a system that's pretty tightly and well constructed.
aestenAIM (11:36:17 PM): A flaw that isn't there when you actually consider everything and how it all fits together.
Adahn1986 (11:36:25 PM): it would have to
Adahn1986 (11:36:29 PM): it's been around for so long
aestenAIM (11:36:50 PM): 2000 years and nobody's found that "problem" you're claiming to have found should tell you something.
Adahn1986 (11:36:59 PM): pharisees...
aestenAIM (11:37:01 PM): And religious scholars have been at it, too.
Adahn1986 (11:37:23 PM): how many thousands of years did they believe in "eye for an eye" among other things?
Adahn1986 (11:37:41 PM): including but not limited to an unbelief in any resurrection of the dead
Adahn1986 (11:37:51 PM): they had a tight-knit system
Adahn1986 (11:37:59 PM): and history repeats itself
aestenAIM (11:38:10 PM): Let's talk about eye for an eye, then.
Adahn1986 (11:38:14 PM): sure
aestenAIM (11:38:22 PM): What's the problem with the punishment fits the crime?
Adahn1986 (11:38:35 PM): they took that as if it came from God
Adahn1986 (11:38:39 PM): law is evil
aestenAIM (11:38:50 PM): Law isn't evil.
Adahn1986 (11:38:52 PM): 1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
Adahn1986 (11:38:55 PM): sure it is
aestenAIM (11:39:08 PM): When the law is just, it's fine.
Adahn1986 (11:39:18 PM): just laws are hard to come by
aestenAIM (11:39:19 PM): What "law" could they be referring to there?
Adahn1986 (11:39:24 PM): I can think of 10 laws
Adahn1986 (11:39:35 PM): they speak of vengeance
Adahn1986 (11:39:37 PM): quite simply
aestenAIM (11:40:36 PM): Could it be possible that the "law" spoken of there is referring to the Roman law?
Adahn1986 (11:41:00 PM): sounds Roman
Adahn1986 (11:41:05 PM): I know it's greek, at the very least
aestenAIM (11:41:08 PM): And what did Romans do?
Adahn1986 (11:41:27 PM): Romans probably used eye for an eye
aestenAIM (11:41:32 PM): Not quite.
Adahn1986 (11:41:35 PM): no?
aestenAIM (11:41:44 PM): Feeding Christians to lions, perhaps?
Adahn1986 (11:41:47 PM): *has romans next term*
Adahn1986 (11:42:00 PM): I'll learn all that next term
Adahn1986 (11:42:02 PM): all I know is greek
aestenAIM (11:42:05 PM): The Romans killed Christ, as well.
aestenAIM (11:42:17 PM): The Romans weren't cotton candy, fine and dandy.
aestenAIM (11:42:33 PM): The "Law" spoken of in that excerpt is referring to the Romans.
aestenAIM (11:42:45 PM): The Romans were just shy of being malicious fascists.
Adahn1986 (11:43:29 PM): I need to sleep
aestenAIM (11:43:38 PM): Think about it, though.
Adahn1986 (11:43:50 PM): I'll save the conversation
aestenAIM (11:43:51 PM): Christianity is pretty solid.
Adahn1986 (11:44:25 PM): except
Adahn1986 (11:44:30 PM): I'll get to it later
Adahn1986 (11:44:31 PM): lol
Adahn1986 (11:44:33 PM): goodnight
aestenAIM (11:44:38 PM): Night.
Adahn1986 signed off at 11:44:47 PM.[/quote]You thought that the "Law" referred to Christian Doctrine, when in reality, it was referring to the [i]Roman[/i] "law" of the time. This is something called Historicity, where the art/literature of a time reflects the social conditions of that time.

I threw your interpretation of Revelation right back in your face, by showing you how it connected with the other portions of the Bible that you hadn't considered, and how it means something completely different than what you wanted to believe.

We've all been throwing them back in your face, in fact, and you have had Christians in here debunking you, Ben and Boba Fett, for example. Midnight Rush had gotten Banned a long time ago for being an [i]egotistical prick[/i]. Cyriel had one post and that was it, so it's not like he/she dropped out of this argument after you "pwnzzorred" him/her, so don't play that like some huge victory, either.

[Afire]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red]If I only had the choice to believe in a god of hell and death...I would just worship myself instead. Not because I deserve to be worshiped; but because I am better than that god. But I do have a choice. I choose to believe that God is better than that. I also believe that He is in me, and that we are one...so I will worship and adore myself anyway.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='Siren']In Heaven, you have a consciousness of your surroundings. You know where you are, and you know why you're there. You're blessed with happiness and peace, and no pain of any type. You live out your days comfortably, not in some rat-race on a hamster wheel in the big Re-incarnation game of Life.[/quote]

In other words, we spend the rest of eternity loafing around, and once more I ask you [i]how is Heaven not redundant[/i]?

It doesn't matter if you're having a blast, it doesn't matter if you are in communion with God. You're being redundant. It's like sitting on your *** eating icecream all day long. Sure, it might be fun, but its not exactly productive, or useful is it? i.e. It's as redundant as tits on a bull, lol.

Surely actually...living, making some sort of difference, some sort of imprint upon the world is worth more than being in Heaven? Things progress in life. In Heaven, nothing progresses. Redundancy.

Now, addressing another point: Why do we waste our time arguing about what will happen after we die? We can't know. Not until we die, at any rate. Would God turn a good person away from Heaven? If so, He is a cruel god. So, why the need to 'believe' in him, as long as you live a good life?[/size]

[Ben]

Baron, just what is your point in trying to prove Heaven's redundancy? o_O Those who are there do not sense the redunancy, or they do not care about it. They're happy. [I]Truly[/I] happy.

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]Sure, it might be fun, but its not exactly productive, or useful is it? i.e. It's as redundant as tits on a bull, lol.

Surely actually...living, making some sort of difference, some sort of imprint upon the world is worth more than being in Heaven? Things progress in life. In Heaven, nothing progresses. Redundancy.[/QUOTE]

If you're in heaven, then in most cases you've had your chance at life, and have done a bang-up job about it. Heaven is your [I]reward[/I] for doing so well in life; it doesn't really need to be productive, does it? i.e. You're brought to a theme park for being a good boy, do you ask yourself how productive it is?

As for your other point, I think we spend time talking about life after death because we're curious. People have gone there and come back (a la defibrillators) but you're right, we just don't [B]know.[/B] All that's really happening here is that some people are giving their opinion of what happens after death, and others are questioning it, and/or providing their own.

I will address your question about God turning away a good man later. At the present time, I'm not sure of the answer. :p

But I know there is one! >>

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Sure, you might be happy. But, that isn't what is concerning me.

What is the point. If you're going to do nothing forever, you may as well not... exist, at all. Ok, so, you get one life to live. Do it well and you spend the rest of eternity in Heaven. I'm sure that people in Heaven see it as being great. But take a look at it from the other side of the Pearly Gates. What do you do in Heaven? Is there any point to existing in Heaven, is what I'm asking. Because you don't do anything. Heaven is sterile and unchanging. Earth is always changing, and I just think that 'recycling' souls back to Earth is a much better idea. But, thats just me :p

And, I eagerly await your answer Ben.[/size]

[Ben]

Mind you, I'm not [I]entirely[/I] sure if I'm right about this, but (as I said before) Heaven is a reward. People who go to Heaven are being rewarded for their good works and life on earth. Believers are reunited with God, and for the first time they are fully in cummunion with him, which gives them the infinite happiness they feel.

To (try to) answer your question, Heaven's purpose is to reward those that believe in God and lived their lives in accordance with his teachings. There may be more going on there, but I can't say for sure. >>



...that's all I've got right now. :p