Christian ... or Not?

[Raiyuu]

[font=Trebuchet MS][b]Yes we have[/b] grown taller over the years. [b]No it isn't[/b] the result of evolution.

Evolution as Darwin defined it (and we should listen to Darwin on this one, he theorised it first, heh) states that a species will evolve in reaction to a [b]selection pressure. [/b]For instance, say the selection pressure is [b]food. [/b]That is, there is only a limited amount of food in the environment.

Now say some of the species - because of [b]random [/b]factors like mutation, or the random assortment of chromosomes in sexual reproduction - were born with longer necks than others. They would be able to reach food in places other members of the species could not, like up trees. Those longer-necked members of the species would be more likely to [b]survive to breed [/b]than their shorter-necked compatriots, therefore would be more likely to pass on their longer-necked genes to their offspring, thereby resulting in a larger proportion of the next generation having long necks. (This example involved giraffes, in case you hadn't guessed.)

Modern humanity [b]does not [/b]suffer from selection pressures. People with genes that make them more susceptible to disease still have a good chance of surviving to breed and passing on their genes, thanks to modern medicine, for instance. I can't think of any reason why short people would have less chance of surviving to breed than tall people in the modern world, so whatever has caused the trend, it isn't evolution. Like Dagger said, environmental changes and better nutrition. Or simply the fact that with modern medicine we're living longer and growing taller?
[/font]

[Sandy]

I have to say you lost me there, Rai... :/ I'm not a scientist, nor am I very smart in these matters, so I can't say you're wrong.

But isn't the facts that human race is growing taller and living longer and inventing new things a change anyhow? If we were originally created to the form we are now, wouldn't it "condemn" us to remain the same?

Sure you can say that we've inherited the features of our parents, but how come short people have given birth to taller people then?

Evolution or not, I believe it proves the straightforward, out-of-the-book creation theory wrong. But hey, that's just me. ;D

Oh, I don't think this thread was originally meant for a debate over evolution, so I'm sorry if somebody's disturbed by this.

[Raiyuu]

[font=Trebuchet MS]Sorry Sage, I wasn't specifically aiming to shoot you down. And yes it is a change. It just isn't evolution as Darwin defined it. Oh, and short people can give birth to tall people because chromosomes assort randomly in sexual reproduction, and because of a lot of stuff to do with dominant and recessive alleles that I can't exactly remember off the top of my head ...[/font]

[AzureWolf]

[COLOR=teal]Dagger's right about the height thing. Evolution is a very slow process by all definitions, and a random one in the Darwinian sense. It's so slow that it is impercievable (hence the reason it is hard to argue against), and so any change we can see in a few generations is not evolution, but something unrelated to genetics.

Most importantly, if Darwinian evolution was the cause, then only a certain group (or family - or more likely, one person) would be tall. The change wouldn't take place all over the world simultaneously. Rather, it would spread so slowly, and on the condition that the people who were not tall died because being tall was necessary.

So, everyone getting tall can't be evolution. ^^;[/COLOR]

[MomochiZabuza]

[SIZE=1]Well in seventh grade you should learn about alelles and punnet squares and such... A short person giving birth to a tall person is like a couple with brown eyes giving birth to a child with blue eyes. If one of their parents had blue eyes than their child could inherit that trait.

Anyhow, the major flaw in Darwin's theory was creation itself. He said we all evolved but he has no explenation for how what we evolved from got here in the first place.

And what I don't understand is if we all evolved from primates why didn't anything else evolve with us? I mean, crocodiles were alive at the same time as dinosaurs (or so they say) and they are exactly the same. And plus, genetic mutation happens in plants too. Why doesn't a plant sprout legs and walk around with us? And don't tell me that they will in 1000000 years, because I can place a bet on that.

Plus, not a single genetic mutation today has been proven to benefit or improve a species. Look it up and try to find one, a fifth leg doesn't help because extra body parts are always stunted. Same with human mutations like siamese twins. Why would that one genetic mutation change the skin color, hair growth, and brain functions for the better all of a sudden?

P.S. I really don't know too much about this stuff but if you know an answer than tell me please because I truly do want to know out of pure curiosity.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]plus, they have done experiments on fruit flies, they've exposed them to different levels of radiation and such. But no matter how mangled or abnormal their eyes, bodies, legs, and internal organs had become, they were still genetically fruit flies. Unlike darwins theory that says we became what we are today from a big black furry thing and runs around on all fours.[/SIZE]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE=Hells Angel][b][font=Comic Sans MS][color=orange] I just want to ask a random question, Which are you Christian or Not or other? and please if you would explain why. =)[/color][/font][/b]

[b][font=Times New Roman][color=darkorange]I am not a christian, But I do believe in God, I dont go to church because I hate hyprocrites, I smoke and cuss, so until I can get over these habits I wont go to church. But thats just me. What about yawl?[/color][/font][/b]

hah im listening to D.H.T Listen To Your Heart Dance Mix, I love this song lol..okay sorry..anywho .. :animeswea[/QUOTE]
[color=mediumturquoise][b]Firstly, do NOT get out of the habit of hating hypocites :p whether you end up going to church or not. As for smoking, there's not a verse in the Bible that says "Thou shalt not smoke" (or "You shall not smoke", if you tend to go by the NIV as most of us Christian Englishmen do :p), however there is a constant barrage of harsh words against the hypocritical, and those who put sacrifice before helping out the needy and dejected- as though they were two completely seperate things![/b][/color]
[b][color=#48d1cc][/color][/b]
[b][color=#48d1cc]Oddly enough, Jesus had better things to say to Prostitutes who were trying to find him, than he did to Pharisees who weren't. And the even more startling thing is that when you truly look at the context of culture and what Jesus was really saying, the modern day Pharisees are all around us. Anyone who spends their time on theologically justifying themselves, without lifting a finger for those in need- or anyone who knows all the Christian rules like "no gays", "no sex before marriage", and "give 10% of all your income to the church" but doesn't know how to love their neighbour.. is nothing more than a Pharisee with a different title. Because Jesus never said to the Pharisees "actually I think you'll find your theology is wrong there"- he only ever challenged them on the stone-coldness of their hearts and lack of love.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#48d1cc][/color][/b]
[b][color=#48d1cc]And if there are any Christians reading this, getting infuriated because I'm describing them down to a tee and condemning them, this isn't meant as condemnation- it's meant as a way of showing you that rule-based Christianity is no better than rule-based Judaism. It is only when our faith displays a genuine compassion that we're going to be the Christians we're meant to be.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#48d1cc][/color][/b]
[b][color=#48d1cc]So yeah.. You've probably guessed that I'm a Christian.. but "Christian" has so many different rules and connotations attached to it, that I don't think I am, and definitely don't want to become, the kind of "Christian" that people come to expect when they hear the word.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#48d1cc][/color][/b]
[b][color=#48d1cc]By the way, what is the "other" in "Christian, not, or other"? :p[/color][/b]

[DeityTheGreat]

OK first off just to say bravo on the quoting man ive been around and ppl dont really quote anymore but this thred is like quote city man its crazy,

secondly the tension in here is crazy man ,

and finally Thirdly... this subject has came in everywhere and ppl have judged the fact that is there really a god? Well there is and everyone can chose to beleive him or not it really is your choice my choice is to yes believe him this life is so based on faith and hope you have to believe in something, im not saying to convert im just saying let the other ppl be if they believe in God thats great if they dont then thats great too. to challenge a subject this big takes a lot ofcourageit took me a lot of courage to do somethings in my life i cant quote on them though anyways, believe or dont believe its your choice my choice is to believe it gives me hope in even the most impossable things if you dont have anything to believe in then cudos to you for standing up to so much **** in this world partion my bad language...

:cool:

[Random]

Ok, first off, this kind of thread is completealy pointless. Mostly because you can't change the way others think, but also because in their own eyes, everyone's right. Most of the people in here have said that they're right, trying to dicredit anyone's views that don't agree with theirs. I'm not saying that everyone has, but most of you...well, you get the idea.
Personally, I am a christian...although i don't go to church, don't necessarily pray, etc., etc., I do believe in the Bible totally. Ya, sure, I might sound like a hypocrite, but that one word is the reason most religions are up for great debate. Alot of people don't like religions because of the hypocrites within them, and rightly so. Hypocrites are annoingly common, and they give religion a bad name. The thing that people have to realize is that people are just that...PEOPLE! Everyone's only human, no matter what lable you put on them.
Secondly, hypocrites are comprised of alot of types of people. Some use religion as a way with coping with bad situations and/or the state of the world. All find and dandy for them...everyone needs a crutch, right? Totally. Others use religion, and view it as, a popularity contest with family, friends, or whoever. I believe that this is wrong, and it totally taints religion as a whole. Still others are "religious" because that's the way they grew up.
But the problem is, it's not the question of -Religion- here, it's the different views of -SPIRITUALITY-! Everyone who is religious, from Christians to Athiests to whatever, are just using the lable the world put on spirituality...called, well, religion. And then, either in harmless debates, such as this, or catastrophic wars, use "religion" as a way, or name, or excuse, to fight among each other just to prove that the one is right, or better, than the other. It's impossible to tell exactly who's religion is correct, but, in my eyes, all are correct as long as they incorporate some aspect of spirituality. Basically what religion is: the word the world uses to bundle all together the acceptance and different views of spirituallity.

Phew. Well, feel free to critisize, agree, disagree, analyze, whatever...I'm still listening...

[Guest Heero yuy]

I went to a Catholic private school for many years, and in some part of my mind, I seriously doubted the teaching of "God" (blasphemy, I know). My family was somewhat heavy catholics, making me do a lot of religious things. But as I got older, I started to figure things out...that maybe religion was for me. But some thoughts of a "God" never escaped me, it still remained through repeation. So, I'm agnostic.

[Starwind]

I like to think of myself as a hopeful agnostic. I don't know if there is or isn't a god, but I like to think more then just rotting in the ground happens after were dead, but I just don't pretend to know what's gonna happen to me when I'm dead and gone.

[Lord Rannos]

[COLOR=DarkRed]It is tense in here...

I'm currently stuggling with my sense of religion. The only thing I really know currently is that I'm not christian. I really don't agree with organized religion, and the rules attached to them. It all seems a bit judgemental to me. I hate the "Do this or go to Hell!" and "You're going to Hell because you did this!" attitude that a lot of christians have.

However, I do believe in spiritualism. I recognize that faith has brought many great things to many people. Fact is, I don't share their beliefs. I'm in a bit of a limbo in my beliefs. I do believe there's some sort of a god, just not that He/She/It/They control the course our lives run. For that matter, I think God's a little more forgiving than what Christians tend to teach. If christianity is correct, then why would a generally good guy have to spend an eternity in Hell just for not going to church every sunday?

I also have some belief in...I guess you could call it Paganism, by today's standards. Though I'm loath to call it that, since it makes mine and my brother's beliefs seem way too organized. I'm kind of teetering on the edge of some things. For example: Spells. While this is the sort of thing my brother believes in, and has done, I just don't know about it. There's an internal cynicism that makes it hard for me to believe things that I can't touch and feel; see and experience. Some things have worked for me, though, like the Tarot. I don't have a lot of experience with them or anything, just that they have shown me things.


Also, if anyone out there believes that the term Paganism or a pentacle (NOT pentagram) or anysuch associated symbols are evil and satanistic, then you are, frankly, wrong. The position of many with beliefs similar to my brother's and mine is tolerance, that everyone has their own path. We don't endorse evil, and we don't hate God.[/COLOR]

Ask an honest question, get an honest answer....

[Zen]

[color=sienna][size=1]


I am not a very relegious person in the sense that I don't go to church very often (almost not at all) and I don't regularly worship God other than through prayer. I am a christian, yes. I believe that Jesus Christ is my messiah, but I don't think that those who don't accept him are going to Hell. Nor do I think he is the only messiah. In the Bible, it said that the Jews were "God's Chosen People" and I believe that Moses acts as their Messiah, and the Muslims, who's holy text actually includes Jesus as a major figure in the book, have their Messiah in Muhammed.

A great king once said "There are many ways to heaven, you choose your own...". That was a very wise saying in my eyes. Also, I have a hard time believing that God or Jesus would allow anyone's soul to burn for eternity in Hell. I just don't think that the Lord would banish a soul he created. Also, if Lucifer was a fallen angel who supposedly created Hell, then why would God work in conjunction with him and allow his acquiring of souls?

I believe in the Christian Heaven, but I don't believe in Hell. I feel that the Lord may allow souls to reincarnate themselves on Earth to repent for their past actions, and through this pentenance, they are allowed into Heaven. Hell could possibly be Earth, I guess, or atleast, the denial of Heaven. I don't think anyone would be sent to eternal damnation, though. I'm not quite sure how to word it exactly, but I have my own take on things I guess.

There have been many non-christian people who were not only good people, but aided the lives of other people greatly. I don't think God would just damn them to Hell because they didn't know about or didn't believe in christianity. That kinda seems a little far off to me.

Yeah, I'm Christian. Greek Orthodox actually is what I'm trying to pursue. However, where I live right now doesn't have an Orthodox church for around 50 miles, so... yeah.[/color][/size]

[Onix]

[quote name='MomochiZabuza][SIZE=1']Well in seventh grade you should learn about alelles and punnet squares and such... A short person giving birth to a tall person is like a couple with brown eyes giving birth to a child with blue eyes. If one of their parents had blue eyes than their child could inherit that trait.[/size][/quote]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]I have a short mother and a tall father. Most of the people on my mother's side of the family, too, are on the shorter side. I believe the tallest is 5' 8". I'm 5'11". Obviously, a short person can give birth to a tall person if there are tall people anywhere in the genetic lineage.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='MomochiZabuza][SIZE=1']Anyhow, the major flaw in Darwin's theory was creation itself. He said we all evolved but he has no explenation for how what we evolved from got here in the first place.[/size][/quote]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Well, looking at it from a scientific stand-point, the only way I can really explain it is that the atoms scattered about the air bonded together in the precise combination to create a single-celled organism. This organism managed to spread and propegate through cell-devision, eventually creating the creatures of today. It's about a 1 in a 1000000000^100000000 (or, 1 billion to the billionth power) chance of occuring, probably, but given all the worlds and galaxies and such, it makes sense that it would happen somewhere, ne?[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='MomochiZabuza][SIZE=1']And what I don't understand is if we all evolved from primates why didn't anything else evolve with us? I mean, crocodiles were alive at the same time as dinosaurs (or so they say) and they are exactly the same. And plus, genetic mutation happens in plants too. Why doesn't a plant sprout legs and walk around with us? And don't tell me that they will in 1000000 years, because I can place a bet on that. [/size][/quote]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Animals have been evolving around us, just not in big ways like that. There are more, and different, species than there used to be because mutations have occured that have proved beneficial. Meanwhile, old species continue to exist because they don't HAVE to change to survive. Crocodiles and sharks found their perfect ecological nieche millenia ago, and haven't needed to change since. And plants won't just randomly sprout legs, mainly because they have no central nervous system to power it. First, find a plant with a brain. Then, we might see one walking around.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='MomochiZabuza][SIZE=1']Plus, not a single genetic mutation today has been proven to benefit or improve a species. Look it up and try to find one, a fifth leg doesn't help because extra body parts are always stunted. Same with human mutations like siamese twins. Why would that one genetic mutation change the skin color, hair growth, and brain functions for the better all of a sudden?[/size][/quote]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Actually, there are plenty of animals changing in amazingly subtle ways all around us. It's simply that the ones people are interested in tend to be more sensational and debilitating. Then they die out, because they are random mutations, and don't spread. Failure is a part of any system, especially evolution.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='MomochiZabuza][SIZE=1']P.S. I really don't know too much about this stuff but if you know an answer than tell me please because I truly do want to know out of pure curiosity.[/size][/quote]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Hopefully, I've answered at least a few of your questions succesfully. And, more so, I hope that my information wasn't outdated, considering my feet aren't exactly tasty.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Drix D'Zanth]

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in the modern synthesis of Evolutionary Biology. If anything, I'd classify myself as at least a theological evolutionist That's the most science-heavy version of Intelligent Design. That is; I belive evolution is the mechanism God used in his creation. However, I [i]can[/i] answer your questions. There is a benefit to having majored in biology.

[QUOTE=MomochiZabuza][SIZE=1]
Anyhow, the major flaw in Darwin's theory was creation itself. He said we all evolved but he has no explenation for how what we evolved from got here in the first place. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Firstly, Darwin made few assertions on creation itself. I suppose most of the debate boils down to "well if it came from this, where did that come from? (and on and on)". On abiogenesis, the Miller-Urey experiment of Amine formation in a prebiotic soup is now understood as being quite incorrect (Free oxygen due to photodissociation eliminates this proposal). I guess the current hypothesis for abiogenesis is "we don't really know", which is perfectly acceptable in scientific terms. Not only that, all theories applying to evolution rely on the presence of life beforehand.

Oh and the argument that "given the galaxies and stars, it was only a matter of time right?" isn't really that logical. For one thing, not only was the process mathematically impossible (that is less than 1: 10^27 chance of occuring) on Earth, but in order for the process to occur, a planetary sized object of similar composition must occur at the same distance from the same size of a similar star. Those chances are astronomical. By the laws of chemistry most of matter is free space. According to chemistry, there is a chance that we can walk through "solid" objects like walls. This chance is astronomically low, however. So saying that abiogensis would occur given enough scenarios is like saying I'll eventually walk through my (closed) door if i walk into it enough times.

[QUOTE=MomochiZabuza][SIZE=1]
And what I don't understand is if we all evolved from primates why didn't anything else evolve with us? I mean, crocodiles were alive at the same time as dinosaurs (or so they say) and they are exactly the same. And plus, genetic mutation happens in plants too. Why doesn't a plant sprout legs and walk around with us? And don't tell me that they will in 1000000 years, because I can place a bet on that.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Crocodiles are [i]not[/i] the same as they were from the time of the dinosaurs. While their evolution may appear more subtle, it appears that they have been selected as more of a stabalizing selection. That is, the crocodiles we see today aren't terribly different from their ancestors, probably because their fitness is sucessful enough despite different pressures. Scientists do think that crocadilians did not use to be as terrestrial as they are now.

[QUOTE=MomochiZabuza][SIZE=1]
Plus, not a single genetic mutation today has been proven to benefit or improve a species. Look it up and try to find one, a fifth leg doesn't help because extra body parts are always stunted. Same with human mutations like siamese twins. Why would that one genetic mutation change the skin color, hair growth, and brain functions for the better all of a sudden? [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Actually there are many examples of known mutations. From allelochemicals to color changes. From varying beak lengths of galapagos finches to aposematic (or cryptic for that matter) coloring. Nothing gets better "all of a sudden" It slowly evolves. For instance, limb length in invertebrates with nubs (early limbs) might still be favored for their ability to scurry away.

[QUOTE=MomochiZabuza][SIZE=1]
[SIZE=1]plus, they have done experiments on fruit flies, they've exposed them to different levels of radiation and such. But no matter how mangled or abnormal their eyes, bodies, legs, and internal organs had become, they were still genetically fruit flies. Unlike darwins theory that says we became what we are today from a big black furry thing and runs around on all fours.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Actually fruit flies provide intriguing investigations on the importance of genes on the evolution of new structures. For instance, manipulating body plan chromosomes can breed flies with legs on it's head inistead of sensory antennae. Discoveries like these give scientists an idea of basic body plan chromasomes and their evolutionary history.

Hope that helped :).

[Al-araaf]

I'm neutral in this sort of thing. I belive in at least some form of high spiritual being. Since most religions are based on the same concept of a higher spiritual being and a divine utopia at the end of our time on earth. But I have researched alot of religions and found that Death would most likely find my vote for worship. Since I live my life balancing my actions, and beliving in a higher being then i'm going to make it into purgatory (or Al-aaraaf). Purgatory is beteween heaven and hell. It could also be called level 1 of hell. Chritianity (forgot which branch) says that it's for un-baptised children, and those who die in gods grace. It is a place of temporary punishment. But the religion that follows Death says to do what I do. And i'll be there forever. The atmosphere is not tortuous like hell, but you feel a constant sorrow. I already do so I think I can for all eternity. Plus I get to meet all of Deaths followers like the Grim Reaper (or soul harvester),
The Soul Guider (the guy who guides you to the dock on the river of styx)
The Soul Swapper(he makes you and someone switch souls for the hell of it)
And if i'm not mistaken I will be aloud to help Death as he is one of the legendary "Four Horsemen of the Apoclypse". I will, like many others harvest souls of the living on that day.

And i'm so very sorry if this offends anyone.