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Anime Think Anime Are Starting to Get More Complicated?


animeloyalist91
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Don't get me wrong I like a spine dusting mind bending anime just as much as the next guy. But after I wacthed evangelion I could barly understand it :animestun and not just evngelion there are alot of animes out there that are just crazy :mad: complicated. They think its clever but its not.
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are you kidding me after 2001 there seems to be an absolute lack of substance, everything seems to be more about cheap laughs and fan service, why can't they balance the humour, fan serice and substance like in Cowboy bebop.
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[quote name='ceath']are you kidding me after 2001 there seems to be an absolute lack of substance, everything seems to be more about cheap laughs and fan service, why can't they balance the humour, fan serice and substance like in Cowboy bebop.[/quote]

What about Millennium Actress? Tokyo Godfathers? Howl's Moving Castle? Voices of a Distant Star? The Place Promised in Our Early Days? Steamboy? Cat Soup? Mindgame? The Animatrix? Fullmetal Alchemist? Paranoia Agent? Samurai Champloo? Kino's Journey? Monster? Blood+? Eureka 7? Those movies and shows all have a good deal of substance and have been made since 2001. Try them (particularly Champloo, since you like Bebop so much and the two shows are extremely similar). You might like them.
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Buy ARJUNA!!!If you want a smart anime that is. But back to the topic at hand. Sure there are a few simple fun animes coming out now but there are far more pointlessly complicated animes coming out recently which kind of bothers me.
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It can't be said enough that Evangelion was a glitch. [i]No one[/i] could have expected the thing from the folks who brought the world the optimistic and bounce-happy Gunbuster and the self-referentially funny Otaku no Video. Everything I've read says it pretty much blindsided everyone. And as long as I'm on the topic, I should stress very very strongly that NGE is [i]high octane junk[/i], it's the absolute last show that anyone should be watching without having some idea of what they're getting into. I mean this in two ways. First, it really needs at least a basic understanding of '80s and early '90s anime, especially the old mecha classics, to know what exactly NGE is initially working with before it completely tears itself apart. Second, somewhere in the End of Eva theatrical program there's a quote about how "if you already know how to live and interact with others normally, Evangelion won't mean anything," which really needs to be taken to heart. NGE is about broken, grieving, incomplete people; if you watch it as an action/adventure without keeping this in mind, you'll be feeling tickled as hell by the first dozen episodes and completely pissed off and cheated by the closing act and the movies. Evangelion isn't trying to be "clever." Extraneous (but important-seeming!) religious symbolism and psychoanalysis references aside, what it's trying to express is something very simple, that something being understandibly easy to miss if you can't find yourself [i]seeing[/i] yourself in any of the neurotics in the cast.

Okay but enough about Evangelion, which (I should stress again) is a glitch. I think the number of "complicated" anime has stayed pretty steady since the late '90s, actually, although there's certainly tons more of now than there was in the '80s and prior. Now, defining what a complicated anime is is a grey area, but you can [I]definitely[/I] say that something's complicated if, by the end of the first episode, you've had a few dozen plot points and latin/german terms dropped on you and you still have no idea what's going on. Complicated shows, at their worst, are blustery and make a big show of how important they are without actually saying anything outside of lukewarm pop philosophy ("What if [i]we're[/i] really the bad guys?" "What if reality is all a [i]big lie[/i]??" "What if I'm actually sexually attracted to my [i]mom[/i]???"). Some shows manage to reel this in, keeping themselves "deep" but still managing to be smart about it. Noein, one of my favorites of last season, is probably the best recent example of this. It manages to throw around all of its quantum mechanical jargon in a way that actually [i]supports[/i] what the show is trying to do, rather than just tickling the fancy of any moron who happens to know what the Copenhagen interpretation is. This is more rare than you'd think, and I wish there were more of it.l
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[color=darkslateblue] I've never really watched anime that people have labeled as 'confusing'. I've watched NGE, but I didn't really find it that confusing. I just think the emotional and mental depth of the show can get tiring and over-used, if you are willing to call it a 'depth'. A lot of people dislike NGE because they think the philosophy in it is crap.

I remember people calling Lain the most confusing anime ever, but I've never seen it.

And on the subject of things getting too complicated, I hate it when anything starts to get hyped up in its self-proclaimed complexity and intellect. The best anime, or any series or movie, presents itself in a manner that clearly gets its themes across and has a great effect on people. [/color]
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[FONT=Palatino Linotype]You guys didn't know the true meaning of "complicated anime" before you watched Texhnolyze. Buy it, watch it, and get ready to got your head blown up.

That anime's really something, NGE's complication's nothing compared to this one. Any conversation you'd hear on this crazy anime had to be some kind of poetry which you had to decipher word by word. Darn!

EDIT: In addition, the story and the ending seemed to made me lost in my imagination. I can't even understand a glinch of it (I'm going hiperbolic, of course I do understand a small part of it).

I do love it's opening soundtrack though, but the ending's sucks![/FONT]
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[COLOR=#656446][quote name='Avenged666fold']Also another complicated (but good one) is Arjuna. Was a little confused later.[/quote]Arjuna wasn't complicated. It was just a fillerific anime that by watching only the first three episodes plus the last two, you'd be able get a good idea of what it's about. Everything in between was J-dorama mixed in with lectures about the environment (which were well thought out but irrelevant to the plot, IMO).

And don't take NGE's ending too seriously. The concept and story are terrific enough that they can support NGE's "Classic Anime" status even without the debatable ending.[/COLOR]
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[color=dodgerblue]Perhaps it's just me, but I've had to watch Ghost in the Shell (both 1&2 movies) at least 3 times each before I understood absoultely everything, and still there was so much to think about! That's just one of many 'complicated' anime, where the story goes beyond the story, as it were. That should've made sense XD[/color]
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[quote name='Fasteriskhead] Everything I've read says it pretty much blindsided everyone. And as long as I'm on the topic, I should stress very very strongly that NGE is [i]high octane junk[/i'], it's the absolute last show that anyone should be watching without having some idea of what they're getting into. [/quote]

The thing is NGE was not junk :mad: It was just hard to understand
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[QUOTE=Delta][COLOR=#656446]Arjuna wasn't complicated. It was just a fillerific anime that by watching only the first three episodes plus the last two, you'd be able get a good idea of what it's about. Everything in between was J-dorama mixed in with lectures about the environment (which were well thought out but irrelevant to the plot, IMO).

And don't take NGE's ending too seriously. The concept and story are terrific enough that they can support NGE's "Classic Anime" status even without the debatable ending.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]Ok so yea this is a no brainer. "people should not use words beacuse it ruins there communication" perfectly understandable. "Im am the rasha and my boyfriend"perfect sense. Oh and my personal favorite"math explains everything" yup a 2 year old understands that one. :catgirl:
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[quote name='animeloyalist91']The thing is NGE was not junk :mad: It was just hard to understand[/quote]By [i]high octane junk[/i] I only meant, colloquially, that Evangelion is [i]totally serious hardcore ****[/i] and should not be tried without appropriate preparations. It'd be like Perfect Sarah Dogooder at Our Lady of Peace Private School suddenly deciding to mainline heroin. Seriously, I know NGE was probably a fairly [i]early[/i] show for most of us in our anime-watching careers (myself included), but trust me, you can get a lot more out of it if you do some research elsewhere first. Get yourself familiar what was going on in TV anime beforehand; set the pins up before you knock 'em down.
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[COLOR=#656446][quote name='Avenged666fold']Ok so yea this is a no brainer. "people should not use words beacuse it ruins there communication" perfectly understandable. "Im am the rasha and my boyfriend"perfect sense. Oh and my personal favorite"math explains everything" yup a 2 year old understands that one. :catgirl:[/quote]Oh, [i]those[/i]. Them ideas are rather deep but they were from the "filler" episodes of Arjuna; episodes that the series didn't really need. That's why I said Arjuna was "fillerific" and (the plot was) a cinch to understand.[/COLOR]
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[quote name='EVA Unit 100']What about Millennium Actress? Tokyo Godfathers? Howl's Moving Castle? Voices of a Distant Star? The Place Promised in Our Early Days? Steamboy? Cat Soup? Mindgame? The Animatrix? Fullmetal Alchemist? Paranoia Agent? Samurai Champloo? Kino's Journey? Monster? Blood+? Eureka 7? Those movies and shows all have a good deal of substance and have been made since 2001. Try them (particularly Champloo, since you like Bebop so much and the two shows are extremely similar). You might like them.[/quote]

i've seen Champloo and liked it but as far as i'm concerned it still lacks the same substance as Bebop, and when you look at your list i've seen most of them and alot are by the same directors that themselves are cast individuals Miyzaki is called a God, Shinkai the next Miyazaki. Ottom brought anime to the west and it took over 10 years to create steam boy. And Kon started his carree under Ottom, and created Tokyo Godfathers from scraped scrips, so these works are really great i admitt but these directors all share the same thought that the anime market is being flooded and its loosing it touch, so they strive to create their individual works. Besided Watanaba, Ottom, Miyazaki, Kon and most Animatix directors started before 2001, therefore sorta proving what i'm saying.
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[quote name='ceath']....Besided Watanaba, Ottom, Miyazaki, Kon and most Animatix directors started before 2001, therefore sorta proving what i'm saying.[/quote]
I'm curious about why you chose 2001 as your cut-off date. Anime has been re-hashing the same old material since long before then. So why not 1995? Why not 1990? To me, it just seems arbitrary. Consider the fact that three of the greatest series from the mid-nineties (Evangelion, Escaflowne and Revolutionary Girl Utena) drew heavily on the similarly themed series that had preceded them. It's possible to be inspired by older shows, older directors, whatever, and still bring something exciting to the table.

Also, I'm surprised that you penalize Shinkai for the fact that people compare him to Miyazaki. By doing so, they mean to pay him the highest compliment possible, not to suggest that he's unoriginal. Sheer visual beauty aside, his movies are really quite unlike Miyazaki's. Even the way in which they're beautiful is different.

As for me, I'll keep my mind open to new stuff and go on enjoying shows like Mushishi.*

*What, you guys thought I would stop shamelessly plugging this anime every chance I get? Heheh. Think again.

~Dagger~
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[QUOTE=Dagger]I'm curious about why you chose 2001 as your cut-off date. Anime has been re-hashing the same old material since long before then. So why not 1995? Why not 1990? To me, it just seems arbitrary. Consider the fact that three of the greatest series from the mid-nineties (Evangelion, Escaflowne and Revolutionary Girl Utena) drew heavily on the similarly themed series that had preceded them. It's possible to be inspired by older shows, older directors, whatever, and still bring something exciting to the table.

Also, I'm surprised that you penalize Shinkai for the fact that people compare him to Miyazaki. By doing so, they mean to pay him the highest compliment possible, not to suggest that he's unoriginal. Sheer visual beauty aside, his movies are really quite unlike Miyazaki's. Even the way in which they're beautiful is different.

As for me, I'll keep my mind open to new stuff and go on enjoying shows like Mushishi.*

*What, you guys thought I would stop shamelessly plugging this anime every chance I get? Heheh. Think again.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]


I never meant to penalise Shinkai, i love both of their works, and i know that they are complimenting him that wasthe whole reason i included him in my discussion. i've even talked about how much i like his work in my posts.

Anyway i choose 2001 because that is my personal opinion, i only really started watching anime in about 1995, and through the shows i have watched it is my opinion that the shows seem to be less focused on ratings and more on their own desires to express their art. which i have openly expressed before. and the shows you listed may have drawn heavily on the themes of other shows before their time like so many others these days, but the directors have added their own individual characteristic to them to make them different pieces. Like mecca vs the apocalpsye is a theme always being used, but each work seems to have an aspect that makes it different, and it is the diectors use of this theme that will ultimately determine whether the work created is full of substance or just another another mecca saga, with the over use of fan service and cheap laughs.
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[quote name='ceath']and the shows you listed may have drawn heavily on the themes of other shows before their time like so many others these days, but the directors have added their own individual characteristic to them to make them different pieces. [/quote]
Exactly. I remain unconvinced that this process suddenly stopped in 2001. Anime has always been a commercial endeavour, like any type of TV entertainment. But there are still many series today that exude the artistic passion of which you speak. :)

~Dagger~
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[COLOR=Red]][quote name='ceath']i've seen Champloo and liked it but as far as i'm concerned it still lacks the same substance as Bebop, .[/quote]

Champloo certainly does not lack substsance. You just have to give it time. For instance episode 14 Misguided Miscreants part2 would have to have had the best flashback sequence Ive ever seen in an anime. The Elegy of Entrapment 2 parter(the ones with Sara) were excelllent. , and the final 3 episodes were brillant. I think this show is just as good as bebop. You just have to give this sereis time before it gets good.[/COLOR]
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[COLOR=#656446][quote name='animeloyalist91']So what do you think the anime storyboard people could do to change this. I don't want an anime that dumbs everything down and I want it to be understandable like Fullmetal alchemist. :animesigh[/quote]Nothing. I think complexity is relative. In some extreme cases, an anime of moderate complexity may be on the dumb side for one and too difficult for another. So, since the writers have already got the range between simple and complicated anime down pat, I don't see why they should change something.

Besides, there are some anime stories that you just can't really depict well if dumbed down or decked up, yeah? ^^[/COLOR]
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[COLOR=Navy][FONT=Comic Sans MS]...hmmm....

Some anime are really complicated, but if you follow the story closely, and don't miss any episodes, then you can understand them fairly clearly (damn Evangelion...miss one episode, you get completely lost... :animeangr ).

[strike]Also, the title of the thread says, Anime[I][B]s[/B][/I][/strike][/FONT][/COLOR] :animestun [COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1]--fixed. -Arvi[/SIZE][/COLOR]
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your right if you dont miss any episodes then its all fine and good but i didnt miss any episodes of Evangelion and i even watch the 2 hour summary video i mean how does [spoiler]the the whole world blow up and the guy still sits there and goes mad, what happened to the girl with the long hair and was the other one a clone[/spoiler]

[COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1][INDENT]daredevilsdad, I added spoiler tags to your post. Revealing plot elements to a series without consideration for those who may not be caught up with you is very bad etiquette. [URL=http://otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=46199]Click here[/URL] for more information on spoiler tags. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or any of the moderators. -Arvi[/INDENT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
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