elfpirate

[QUOTE=Chabichou][color=#004a6f] Interesting. So, is that all you really want? Are their not any other motives behind the war? Are their not benefits for America for engaging in this war? [b][color=black]If there were more that I wanted, I would have said so. I believe in freedom and justice for all people, and that is what I want for the Iraqi people. [/color][/b] [b][color=black][/color][/b] [b][color=black]As far as hidden agendas, I'd like to point out that the American government does not allow its people to be informed of their hidden agendas, (um...that's why they're called "hidden agendas") so the masses will probably never know if our administration had "other motives", as you put it.[/color][/b] [b][color=black][/color][/b] [b][color=black][/color][/b] [b][color=black]Like I said in my last post- we are all responsible for eachother.[/color][/b] [b][color=#000000][/color][/b] [b][color=#000000]If no one was willing to take responsibility and make sacrifices for the freedom of others, none of us would be free.[/color][/b] [b][color=#000000][/color][/b] [b][color=#000000][/color][/b] [/color]

[QUOTE=Sepiroth] It is not are responsibility for evey third world country. [color=darkred]Whose responsibility [b][i]is[/i][/b] it if it doesn't fall into the hands of those of us who can do something about it? As humans, aren't we responsible for one another regardless of the borders on the map? [color=#8b0000]It is all too easy for someone living a cushy American life to shrug and say "It isn't me and it isn't here, so why should we care?"[/color] [/color][color=darkred][/color] [color=darkred]Your post says to me: Let the terrorized, tortured, maimed and murdered fend for themselves. Let the Iraqi people disregard their families' safety and rise up against an army of atrocities... when they have no strength with which to fight. I mean, who really cares about the horrors of genocide and tyranny... it goes away when I shut off the television...right?[/color] [color=#8b0000][/color] [color=#8b0000]It may be far away and it may be out of [i]your[/i] hands directly, but it is our responsibility to do something about it when innocent people are living and dying in torture and terror and we have the means to stop it. Would you refuse to act if you came across a woman being raped- because it was not [i]your[/i] responsibility? It's the same basic principle... we are all responsible for eachother... and to turn a blind eye to an atrocity being committed is an atrocity in itself...and, in my opinion, a selfish act of cowardice. [/color] [color=#8b0000][/color] [b][i][color=black] No one would enjoy freedom if everyone thought "It's not our responsibility to fight for it and it's not worth the sacrifice..." [/color][/i][/b] [color=darkred]Think about it.[/color] [b][i][color=black][/color][/i][/b]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][color=#004a6f] I have a question for supporters of America and the war on Iraq. It is not meant to be rude at all: What do you want? [/color][color=black]That's easy- freedom and justice for the innocents that were being tortured and slaughtered and terrorized under Saddam's regime.[/color]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]Racism? Cry me a river. We?ve got legally enforced anti-discrimination laws. The world would be a perfect place if there were thought-crimes right? Um... just because there are laws doesn't mean that they're enforced... but the point of this thread was to ask whether or not discrimination still existed and why it wasn't as obvious as it once was. I do agree with you, however, that the PC movement is a ridiculous farce, and I also agree with you on the hate crimes issue... anyone that says that rape is not a hate crime should be bludgeoned with the club of reality... You make some legitimate points, but you didn't really answer the specific question.

[QUOTE=Afire]Definitions of: Abyss 1. chasm: a chasm or gorge so deep or vast that its extent is not visible 2. endless space: something that is immeasurably deep or infinite 3. terrible situation: a situation of apparently unending awfulness 4. hell: hell thought of as a bottomless pit [font=Trebuchet MS][size=1][color=red]I'd rather think of love as a fountain bubbling over than as an abyss. [color=darkgreen]Yeah... well... when I used the word [b][i]abyss[/i][/b], I was using it as it is defined in the second definition you posted. When you use a word, it doesn't necessarily carry all possible definitions with it. After all, when I make a [i][b]sacrifice[/b][/i] for a loved one, I don't disembowel a goat... well... not typically, anyway...[/color] [/color][/size][/font]

I would take care of my loved ones (fully paid-for homes, vehicles, etc...)and make sure that my parents would never have to work again- because they have worked so hard for so long that that they should have the opportunity to relax and do the things that they enjoy doing- not the things that they have to do... and pay for my family to travel to everywhere they've wanted to go to but never could afford. And I would pay for all my schooling up-front, buy my very own chopper (once I finish flight school), buy myself a little bit of property, build a house, and set up a savings account for my child's college costs. If there was anything left after that, I would give it all to a variety of charitable causes.

I have this strange personality flaw when it comes to giving and receiving, and I was wondering if other people experience this as well. Basically, when someone helps me out or when someone gives me gifts or is generous in sharing with me, I am overcome with guilt if I don't have the means to give as much as I've received. I really feel like a shmuck if I can't balance the equation. The odd thing about it is that it's very one-sided thinking... because I don't want anything in return when [i]I'm [/i]giving to someone- I'm helping or giving because I [i]want[/i] to and nothing more... because giving to people makes me happy... especially when I can remain anonymous and the recipient is someone who doesn't expect kindness or generosity from anyone... So, my theory is that the guilt comes from being raised in terrible poverty and being aware that when my parents did something for me, it was a huge sacrifice on their part(ie: buying me $20 worth of birthday presents could mean that they would have to hitch-hike to work because that would have been their gas money for the week...or that they couldn't pick up the presciptions that they needed until the next pay-period and things like that). I always felt guilty when my parents "had to" buy me things, and I always wanted them to forget about my birthdays and use what they had for their own needs, but they never would. But, back to the original question- does anyone else feel uncomfortable and undeserving when they receive help and gifts? And is it a neurotic guilt born of poverty and sacrifice or just a character flaw?

[QUOTE=James][color=#334366]I think it's like any war of this kind; it takes a decade or two to actually see things from a clearer perspective. Some people are saying that the coalition should already get out of Iraq. But the United States was in Japan for some ten years or so. I mean...I just think most of those people simply don't know/understand their history. [color=darkred]This was what I was trying to get at when I said in my first post on here that I believe that people will understand things a lot better once the record books have been laid open for all to see... that whole "hind-sight is 20/20" thing...[/color] [color=#8b0000][/color] [color=#8b0000]I also think that the people that are saying that the coalition needs to leave Iraq don't understand just how much needs to be done in order to "excorcise the demons of tyranny" so to speak. It isn't simply a matter of removing the tyrant... you can't just go in, remove the government that has been standing for decades, and leave the country you've just essentially turned upside-down to fend for themselves... it's not like they've got experience in rebuilding their country's fundamental structure and certainly they don't have experience in rebuilding the life of the nation with a new-found freedom and system of democracy. It's an entire overhaul of their way of life from oppression and tyranny to freedom and democracy... most of them haven't even experienced freedom within their lifetimes- nor did they ever expect to. They need help with the transition, and it will take time before they "get the hang of it" and can survive as a nation without help.[/color] [/color]

I used to do that a lot- almost every night, actually. It was usually a flying dream that I would be having when I would realize that I was dreaming and that I could change my dream to suit my whims... so I could fly to wherever I felt like flying and could change the scenery that I was flying over, etc... But I haven't done it since I developed a couple of parasomnias... like night-terrors, for one- and OH, how I [color=darkred]wish[/color] I could control those... (Imagine having the most terrifying dream possible, but you believe that it's really happening to you... then, imagine that you "wake up" from your terror and the horrifying subject of your dream is there in your bedroom with you for a while...like it followed you out of your dream...and you can't escape it until it slowly fades away and you finally realise that you were only dreaming) yeah... I [color=darkred]really[/color] wish I could control my dreams still. Especially because I also lack the chemical that is supposed to paralyze you while you're dreaming, so I frequently flail about and punch the wall as hard as I can in my sleep and other stupid crap like that. I actually gave myself a concussion... head-butting the concrete wall that my bed was up against... because I was ducking an attack in my dream...not a pleasant way to wake up... If I could still dream lucidly, then I could get rid of the night-terrors entirely... but I would probably still flail about like an idiot...:D

[QUOTE=Heaven's Cloud][color=indigo] Again, it is a bit too early to evaluate the worthiness of the war. [/color][color=red]No, it is too early to evaluate the [i]effectiveness[/i] of the war. It is not too early to evaluate the [i]worth [/i]of the war... and I evaluate it to be a war worth fighting, as the effort to stop oppression, tyranny, and ethnic cleansing is worth everything we as humans can give to one another. What is life worth without freedom and justice? If this war is not "worthy" of our effort and our sacrifice (regardless of our success, I might add), then what [i]is[/i] worthy?[/color] [color=#ff0000][/color] [color=#ff0000]I would be proud to die for the cause of freedom and justice and would find myself "unworthy" of my own life if I was unwilling to sacrifice it for the people who have been denied freedom and justice.[/color] [color=#ff0000][/color] [color=#ff0000]It remains to be seen if our efforts and sacrifice will be enough to bring about change, yes, but it is a cause worthy of the fight... and I believe that that is something that could be evaluated from the beginning.[/color] [color=#ff0000][/color] [color=#ff0000]By the way- in case anyone's wondering, I'm not attempting to attack anyone on this thread- I simply have very strong feelings on this matter and can't resist responding to certain things... so I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a jerk- I mean no personal offense... I just lack social skills and don't care to sugar-coat anything.:smirk: [/color] [color=#ff0000][/color]

I would like to point out the fact that there are a number of religions that don't regard homosexuality as a sin or immoral but instead think of it as a desirable "deviation" and revere it as a virtue. In those cultures, it is a respectable thing to be gay, and the homosexual inherits the status of shaman, healer, confidant, and "wise one", because the deviation is viewed as being CLOSER to god (or the gods, if it's a poly-deitous religion). Secondly, EVERY animal species on the face of the planet (save the simple-structured ones that lack genitalia) practices homosexuality. That is a proven and documented fact. And yet they are considered to live free of sin and the capacity for evil. Why should humans condemn one another for loving whom they love (strictly speaking about consenting adults here, of course) when the virtue of love is supposed to be held in higher regard than the instinct of an animal. An animal is driven to homosexuality by instinct... and we are animals, after all... I think it's neat that humans have the capacity for love ...to enhance the instinctual attractions that they feel... Would people really prefer homosexuals to be lonely and denied the love that they feel for one another (and the love that is a basic necessity of being human) just because "the parts don't fit" or because their deity frowns upon it? I really believe that it is the sexual act itself that is scrutinized and deemed an abhorration, not the emotions nor the commitments that homosexual couples have for eachother, but people are ignorant and cannot separate the two. We live in a dreadfully sexually repressed society in which sex=shame... and the repressors would like nothing more than to shame homosexuals to death in order for themselves to feel comfortable. I still haven't heard a convincing argument against it... only the same vague and parroting arguments I was referring to in my first post on this thread...

I don't understand what the big deal is, either. What business is it of anyone else's if two people are in love and committed to one another? Let them be who they are and let them love whom they love, in my opinion. I, too, would like to see an intelligable reasoning against homosexuality, because the only ones I've heard are "Because it's evil and wrong" and the whole plug-and-socket reasoning (you know what I'm talking about) which are fundamentally poor arguments...

[QUOTE=Zenriek]But all the deaths of the Americans could or couldn't've been worth it. [color=darkolivegreen][/color] [color=darkolivegreen]Would their deaths be worth it if it were your family and friends that were subjected to the horrific tortures, etc? What is the price you are willing to pay for the end of the suffering and the killings of innocent men, women, and children? [/color] [QUOTE=Zenriek] It's a bit worth it to say that the war isn't over in the US, though there are some people coming over for bad reasons. [color=darkolivegreen]The location of the war would not change the principles over which the war were fought. Those of us who understand the necessity for this war would stand strong in our convictions even in the face of the danger and destruction. It's not like we are blind to the atrocities of war.[/color] [color=#556b2f]And the last part of that statement- "some people coming over for bad reasons"- can you clarify exactly what you were trying to say by that statement? You left it quite vague...[/color]

To be blunt, discrimination abounds in every culture, and if you're not seeing it, your eyes aren't open. It may not be as publically tolerated as it was before people pretended to care about being politically correct, but it's still there... a looming cloud of ignorance hanging over our heads like the sword of Damacles...

[QUOTE=Yume Tenshi] In my P.O.V i think we should all give up on LOVE. [color=darkred]That's really sad, Yume... I hope your P.O.V. changes someday... to give up on the good aspects of this existence (and there are admittedly few of those) is to already be dead. At least leave a legacy before you give up and rot...[/color]

[color=darkgreen]Saddam ruled as Hitler ruled and, just as we failed to do something about the Holocaust until Pearl Harbor was attacked, we failed to do anything about the horrors of Houssein until 9-11.[/color] [color=#006400]Bush lied to the American public about a great deal of things, such as the whole WMD's crap (in reality, America gave Saddam both biological and chemical weapons capabilities to use against Iran... which he ended up using on his own people, littering the streets of Iraq with the bodies of innocents, including women and children, and maiming/disfiguring thousands).[/color] [color=#006400][/color] [color=#006400]We had a chance to remove Houssein and his sons and the rest of the regime the first time we were at war with them, and we didn't.[/color] [color=#006400][/color] [color=#006400]Saddam is a murderer, a torturer, a sadist, and is guilty of ethnic cleansing on a grand scale. The atrocities committed under his reign can never be justified.[/color] [color=#006400]Just as the Gestapo of the 3rd Reich kept immaculate records, so did the regime of the Housseins. Names, birthdates, torture methods used, heights and weights of victims, etc... it's all been immaculately recorded and new horrors come to light each day. I believe that when the record books are finally laid open for all to see, it will be clear to all (at least in hindsight) that someone needed to go in and stop this revolting disregard of human life and the absolute brutality of this sadistic ruler or we would have yet another Holocaust to mourn for eternity.[/color] [color=#006400][/color] [color=#006400]I believe that, although Bush is a lying jackass, this war is wholly justified . What was going on in Iraq was very reminiscent of the Holocaust... and to turn a blind eye to the massacre and torture would be just as bad as committing the atrocities ourselves. [/color] [color=#006400][/color] [color=#006400]I am grateful that there are still people who will lay down their lives in the name of justice and freedom... whether it be their own freedom or the freedom of others.[/color] [color=#006400][/color] [color=#006400]Casualties are the reality of war... but those soldiers believed that risk to be worth taking, or they wouldn't be there. They die for freedom and justice... and if that is[/color] [color=#006400]not something worth dying for, then I don't know what is.[/color] [color=#006400][/color] [color=#006400]I would rather die upon my feet, (fighting) than to live upon my knees...[/color] [color=#006400][/color] [color=#006400]I guess my point is this- regardless of the lying , treacherous paths our politicians take, a war for the freedom of a terrorized nation and justice for the innocent is a noble thing... and I support it wholeheartedly... and no, I do not like war one bit... but it truly is a necessary evil at times.[/color]

I do agree with a lot of the points on this thread, but I, myself cannot define love, as words will always fall short of it's depth. No poet can verse the true essence of love... I am always disappointed in the misuse of the word because it has become a catch-all phrase with very little meaning (ie: I love your shoes!) While words fall short of the magnitude of love's abyss, I guess it would be safe to say that love is what you are alive within... and that what you love is what you would die to protect ( as was said earlier in the thread).

[QUOTE=celestialcharm]Yup to me the only good thing about valentime's day is buying discount candy the day after :D [color=darkslategray]I agree with you on that :smirk: .[/color] [color=darkslategray][/color] [color=darkslategray]I don't think I would ever spend that kind of loot on someone for Valentine's Day. Maybe some other day of the year...just at random because I love them, but not for a holiday.[/color] [color=#2f4f4f][/color] [color=#2f4f4f]I really don't like holidays except for Halloween, and the only reason I like Halloween is because candy and sewing materials goes on sale, and there is a lot of creative ideas on display in people's costumes and decorations. (There's a lot to say for the originality of someone's costumes and decorations...)[/color] [color=#2f4f4f][/color] [color=#2f4f4f]As far as Valentine's Day is concerned, I think it's foolish to set aside a day to show your appreciation and love for your SO. Why? Because you should be doing that 365 days a year... if you love that person truly.... I mean, why not buy candy and flowers and cards and all that Valentine- type- stuff at random throughout the year? It's the obligatory "I love you so I spent money on you because it's Valentine's Day and that's what I'm supposed to do" crap that grates my nerves...[/color]

[QUOTE=Freude][color=#b33d79]Come on, love! If you've known him for that long, surely he has an idea of how you're going to react. Ten bucks fifty says he's alright with you guys staying only as friends. [color=black]You would think so... but he blurted his feelings for me in a drunken stupor and was too ashamed after that to hang out with me anymore- he didn't even give me a chance to react... positively or negatively... he wouldn't even talk to me after that except for an accidental run-in with him at a gas station in which he asked me to run away with him... hmmm...[/color] [/color]

[QUOTE=James][color=#334366]I think that shame is a tricky thing. Shame is often used to force people into one particular way of behaving. And shame is often the cause of further problems. For example, many women who are raped feel [i]ashamed[/i] and that can sometimes partly be the reason why they may not alert the authorities. This also happens with children who are sexually abused. It's often shame that stops them from coming forward and starting a process of recovery (however much one can recover from such horrific events, anyway). So I don't think that shame is even mostly a good thing. We are often ashamed of things that we shouldn't be ashamed of and that in turn isn't good for one's self confidence and so on. But like anything else, it depends. Sometimes I think you can be ashamed of yourself for something (maybe a lack of effort in school or whatever) and that can be a good thing, if only because it allows you to acknowledge a personal failure to yourself. And that in turn may help you to change in the future, for your own betterment. But in terms of public shaming and stuff like that...eh, I don't know. The whole concept of "shame", at least from a religious point of view, seems mostly to be a system of control and belittlement. Not to say that this is always the case, or that shame is always bad (as mentioned above). It's just that I don't think shame is always good. [color=black]I wholeheartedly agree. I suffer from Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and I live with shame every minute of every day of my life- for things that I am consciously aware were not my fault. It doesn't matter how many times I tell myself that it was not my fault and that it is not truly my shame to bear, it does not lessen... and I will most likely bear the weight of that shame 'till my last breath...[/color] [color=black] [/color] [color=black]I also had shame used against me as a weapon of power and control in many horrific circumstances.[/color] [color=black] [/color] [color=black]Shame is not always good, as James has said... and I think that it is very seldom a good thing... even when it is your motivation for behaving in a "socially acceptable" manner. There should be another motivation there.[/color] [/color]

I spoke to the girl about it and she says that she's okay with remaining friends, so I can breathe a little easier about that one... but it's the male that worried me most anyway, because the friends that I've already lost to this situation were all guys... including one that had been one of my best friends- someone that I spent almost every day with for 6 years.

Yeah, um... as much fun as it would be to live in a Mad Max society, anarchy is a ridiculous notion as far as our species is concerned. I used to consider myself an anarchist when I was young and naive and I was very strong-willed about it, but you have to realise that law is a necessary evil. For example... what would happen if anarchy existed and someone decided to rape your little sister or your daughter or something. Without law, he's unpunishable, right? OH, but then you'd say, the people could punish him... So the people string him up and hang him from a lamppost. Then his mother comes to exact her revenge for the murder of her son whom she believes was mentally ill and couldn't control himself without medication (which is unavailable because there is no government funding for medical treatments). So now the people who killed the rapist have been killed. Their families get pissed and go after the mother...and then her family and friends go after them... etc etc etc... And common sense will not be born of anarchy. We are lucky enough here to have government- funded schools in which the very poor can be educated alongside the rich. When there is no government help, schools will dissappear, work will disappear, food will dissappear, oil will disappear, medicine, brain surgeons, and everything else that has come about by government organization of resources and from government funding... such as every single Battered Women's shelter and every homeless shelter and every hospital... I don't understand how common sense could be born of anarchy. Even common sense has natural law applied to it...

Well, I have had a gun put to my head and I've also had a knife put to my throat... but it didn't really scare me the way one would expect it should, and I managed to escape both situations... which I may or may not post in the survival stories thread... It is a little scary to walk around after dark in my community, as it's extremely violent here and girls get abducted, raped and killed all the time in these parts (several a week) but it doesn't scare me enough to make me stay indoors at night... but I'm a risk-taker, too, and I've survived so far... I guess I do have another fear that I had forgotten about. I used to work on old cars all the time (classics) and never had a problem with it until one of the really good mechanics around here had a freak accident with the jack he was using and the car he was working on crushed him and killed him. I went to put in a new starter on a 1966 Cadillac Colais and as I crawled under the engine, I remembered that mechanic and started panicking... thinking I was going to get crushed as well. I got the new starter in, but now every time I have to put a car up on a jack or on blocks, I start panicking as soon as I get under it.:(

I am suddenly in a seriously uncomfortable situation. I have just returned to the small community where my family lives, and I have but 3 friends in this depressing little ****hole of a town. 1 of them I've known for about 8 years, and the other ones I had never hung out with before I moved back here... though I had played music with one of them a number of years ago at a convention of sorts. Well, within the last week, both of my newer friends (one male, the other female) have made it quite clear that they're interested in being more than just friends. I don't want to lose either of them as my friends but I am entirely uninterested in being in a relationship with anyone at this time. I'm also afraid that they'll think I'm leading them on by continuing to make plans to hang out with them... but I've already agreed to start a band with her and to be his tattoo apprentice... both of which I would have been a little more hesitant to agree to had I known how they felt about me. I have lost quite a few friends because of this exact same situation in the past... they basically decided that if they couldn't have me, then they couldn't deal with being around me anymore. I think it's a crappy thing to do to your friend... So, is there a way to get out of this situation and remain friends with them? Because I apparently don't know how to do that without hurting them ( judging from my past encounters with this problem).

It sounds as though he is looking for a way out of the relationship but has a difficult time being honest and straightforward. I would leave him be and move on... but, then again, I'm a rather cynical person and don't have much faith in people turning around and everything working out okay... and I have no patience for people that screw with my head or my heart... but that's just me, and the decision is yours alone...