Who disagrees with drinking and drugs?

[Aaryanna_Mom]

You seem to be good at only pointing out the positives of the drug instead of pointing out the potential problems, which are more likely to be the reason why it is not legal. Lets start here with the article you yourself linked to: [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD ]Wikipedia[/URL]
[INDENT][B]Physical dangers[/B]
Although LSD is generally considered nontoxic, it may temporarily impair the ability to make sensible judgments and understand common dangers, thus making the user susceptible to accidents and personal injury. [/INDENT]
Not very promising when it?s not even being used for a medical reason. It?s one thing to accept danger when you have the possible payoff of good benefits. But to take something that impairs ones ability for no good reason is foolish.[INDENT]Prior to October 6th, 1966, LSD was available legally in the United States as an experimental psychiatric drug. (LSD "apostle" Al Hubbard actively promoted the drug between the 1950s and the 1970s and introduced thousands of people to it.) The US Federal Government classified it as a Schedule I drug according to the Controlled Substances Act of 1970. As such, the Drug Enforcement Administration holds that LSD meets the following three criteria: it is deemed to have a high potential for abuse; it has no legitimate medical use in treatment; and there is a lack of accepted safety for its use under medical supervision. (LSD prohibition does not make an exception for religious use.) [/INDENT]
The key point being that it has no legitimate medical use and therefore no reason to be legalized. Especially when you take the rest of the info from the site you feel so highly about into account: [URL=http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_basics.shtml]Erowid[/URL]
[INDENT][B]Duration[/B]
The primary effects of LSD last for 6-8 hours.. For many people there is an additional period of time (2-6 hrs) where it is difficult to go to sleep and there is definitely a noticeable difference from everyday reality, but which is not strong enough to be considered 'tripping'.[/INDENT]
Hardly something to ignore when you read the next part as to how this makes a person incapable of being in control of their own thoughts. And it?s still fairly useless as far as medical purposes go.
[INDENT][B]PROBLEMS[/B]
LSD can precipitate strong, temporary changes in an individual's experience of life and reality. Even in low doses, it is a powerful psychoactive that can be significantly affected by experiences, set and setting. Recent experiences, especially strong ones, can have a substantial effect on a trip. Physically or psychologically unsettling events in the days before an LSD trip can blossom into more serious distress and trauma while tripping.

It is important to be prepared for the possibility of encountering difficult or frightening mental states. There are many ways of minimizing possible dangers and trauma: by making sure to have others around for first time or high dose experiences, choosing carefully when and where to use a substance, taking a little time to prepare mentally for an experience with LSD by relaxing, having an intent for the experience, or by incorporating comforting and calming ritual into the preparation (clean the house, adjust the lighting, choose music that will go with the sort of experience you're looking for,etc) Using a 'sitter', a sober friend who's job it is to watch out for you while you're tirpping can go a long way toward easing anxiety and ensuring that someone will be able to deal with any situation that might arise. It's amazing how confusing a ringing phone or a cop at the door can be if you're on LSD. Read up on the Psychedelic Crisis FAQ so you and your friends will have some idea what to do if things get difficult.[/INDENT]
And even more importantly, if the person on it is out of touch with reality, what's to stop them from doing dangerous things like driving? Or how about holding down a job or other responsibilities if one has a family or children? The fact that it affects the mind so profoundly is a warning in itself that taking it is extremely foolish. And there are other issues to consider as well.
[INDENT]· Do not operate heavy machinery. Do Not Drive.
· Individuals currently in the midst of emotional or psychological upheaval in their everyday lives should be careful about choosing to use strong psychedelics such as LSD as they can trigger even more difficulty.
· Individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or early onset mental illness should be extremely careful because LSD is known to trigger latent psychological and mental problems.
· LSD can cause uterine contractions and is probably better avoided by women who are pregnant.[/INDENT]
Whether or not someone can overdose on LSD is irrelevant, the whole reason it is illegal is it serves no real purpose other than for people to get high and literally be out of their mind. Something that economically would be detrimental if it became legal and therefore readily accessible to the general population. It?s dangerous in that it has potentially negative effects on one's work and social life as well as the very real one of the person hurting themselves or others while they are in that state of being disconnected so to speak.

Some of the other references in this thread are probably more towards other substances that have even greater dangers as far as dying from an overdoes, etc. But still in the end, there is no good reason to legalize such a useless substance. If it were really so wonderful and beneficial it would have probably stayed legal instead of being changed to an illegal status.

Harm is not limited to the physical side of drug use only and that seems to be something you are either unwilling to accept or for whatever reason cannot or won?t see. And to be blunt, you come across as someone who is simply justifying their own use of an illegal substance. A state of denial if you will.

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='TherapySessions]The links that indifference provided did nothing to disprove anything that I said, infact it was completely non-related. What does someone being stupid enough to do drugs then drive a car have to do with any of the points that I have made? Also "any kid" can disprove what points I made exactly? Which in particular - and why don't you?[/QUOTE]Perhaps not to LSD, but your skipping over the other parts about issues surrounding babies born to mothers who use illegal drugs like cocaine and heroin. The point was relevant to the thread in that illegal drugs are dangerous, though not always in the same manner. You?re quoting me out of context since I clearly stated that I was referring to illegal drugs and not just LSD. Aaryanna_Mom was merely pointing out that there is data showing that some of the illegal drugs out there are quite dangerous something the two links I provided showed. You also left off the ending statement on LSD: [B]Because we do not know exactly what effect these drugs have on unborn babies, it's wise to avoid them as an unnecessary risk. [/B]That?s a rather relevant point that they do not know wouldn?t you say?[QUOTE=TherapySessions]However, this is irrelevant to any of the points that I have made, what's people being thick enough to take drugs when driving or pregnant got to do with anything?[/QUOTE]Everything, since making an illegal drug legal runs into the ramifications of the consequences of taking such drugs while one is pregnant or is going to be driving. LSD may not have a detrimental effect on the baby, but it sure as hell will on one?s ability to drive. Or even on a pregnant mother since being on an LSD trip isn?t exactly a good way to prepare for having a child. [QUOTE=Aaryanna_Mom']Harm is not limited to the physical side of drug use only [/quote]Quoted for truth, I?d certainly hate to see a mother with young children on LSD, I?m sure their kids would appreciate a mother who was too out of her mind to take care of them for part of the day or night should the need arise.

And in general as to why any of this is relevant. You seem to be arguing that LSD is safe and should be legal, and others are countering with potential problems. Which include driving while one is high, It's extremely relevant since making it legal includes the increased danger of people driving while using such drugs. To pretend it isn't a factor would be irresponsible and dangerous. [/COLOR]

[TherapySessions]

[QUOTE=Aaryanna_Mom]You seem to be good at only pointing out the positives of the drug instead of pointing out the potential problems, which are more likely to be the reason why it is not legal. Lets start here with the article you yourself linked to: [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD ]Wikipedia[/URL]
[INDENT][B]Physical dangers[/B]
Although LSD is generally considered nontoxic, it may temporarily impair the ability to make sensible judgments and understand common dangers, thus making the user susceptible to accidents and personal injury. [/INDENT]
Not very promising when it?s not even being used for a medical reason. It?s one thing to accept danger when you have the possible payoff of good benefits. But to take something that impairs ones ability for no good reason is foolish.[/QUOTE]

Not quite finished after all then?

I have stated numerous times that drugs like LSD do not go without risks. I have never said that it was "safe" - it simply isn't for a lot of people as they do not have the mental capacity to deal with such an experience (anxiety, paranoia, predisposition to mental health problems). I used italics to stress the point that I was clarifying (LSD does not have direct physical effects on the human body which would pose a danger) and it is still going over your head repeatedly. I was stressing this point in reply to opinions nearer the begining of the thread. Glad we've got that out the way, hopefully you'll understand this time (do you always read so far between the lines). Suprisingly, problems arrising from bad judgment would be an indirect effect.

Whether or not you think the risk is for good benefits is pretty much void, because it's not your experience that we're talking about. A lot of people who are not the down and out wife beaters that you no doubt think they are DO get something out of it, and thoroughly reap the benefits without anything impairing their ability. Deal with it. Maybe some people don't but you are in no position to generalise and decide what other people have personally experienced.

LSD currently has no medical use on a large scale, however there is research being conducted in both the UK and the USA (links provided earlier). That said, whether or not it does, has little influence on whether or not I think it should be legalised, as the simple fact that I do not agree with other people prohibiting and controlling peoples personal choice (for what is essentially a victimless crime), in what is some kind of pitiful excuse to protect them at the risk of ironicly destroying their lives and landing them in prison is at all justified. After the "get what they deserve" attitude displayed a few pages earlier, I wouldn't be suprised if a lot of people don't agree but I really don't care and I'm not going to go into this as it will no doubt lead to more pages of bile from people appearing to misinterprite and twist my words (poor me).

The part titled "problems" sounds like pretty standard harm reduction stuff to me, not sure what provoked you to mention how it's useless medically (again) at that point. It's a psychedelic, you've always got to be prepared for what could be a negative trip, they can sometimes be the ones where you learn the most. That is the nature of the psychedelic experience.

hahaha well I don't see how tripping on a Friday would really stop you going to work the next monday. Why should it interfere with your job or looking after kids? People don't spend every day of the year with their kids do they?

Operating heavy machinery aswell - yeah, there's no better thing to do on LSD than going to work and operating heavy machinery. Anyone who drives on drugs is an idiot - drugs do not make you want to drive cars, they don't turn you into an irrational withering idiot you know.

A state of denial? Get over yourself, the only reason I bothered signing upto this forum was because I saw pages and of one sided bile concerning how disgracefull drugs were, then a seemingly outraged poster denying someones personal experience as absolute fact. Step outside your little box, it doesn't suprise me that someone as old as my mother who speaks to children on the internet and participates in anime RPG's has such an utterly narrow minded, condsending view on drug users who are able to function just aswell as they are.

[Guest NIKI12345]

Well even though I don't have the answers to all these things and you guys are really making this hard to understand but here is the site with some pros and con of illegal drug [URL=http://www.medicalmarijuanaprocon.org/pop/conflicts.htm]Click here for answers[/URL] [URL=http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/frontdoor.cfm?issue_type=illegal_drugs]More sites[/URL]

Hope it helps.

[TherapySessions]

[quote name='indifference][COLOR=DarkRed']You seem to be arguing that LSD is safe [/COLOR][/quote]

hmmmm that bit's getting tiresome now.

If people are thick enough to drive while they're on drugs or get hammered all the time when they're about to give birth to a child I don't think it means that others should suffer at their stupidity and risk prison terms over what is essentially a victimless crime.

If you think that's worth going to prison for, well that's your choice and the government is on your side. Personally I don't think it's worth destroying anyones life like that (I can pretty much predict your reply to that and it involves cars, driving and running babies over).

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]I'd like to issue a warning and a reminder about keeping it civil and respecting other's opinions on the subject. Especially after reading this:[quote name='TherapySessions']A state of denial? Get over yourself, the only reason I bothered signing upto this forum was because I saw pages and of one sided bile concerning how disgracefull drugs were, then a seemingly outraged poster denying someones personal experience as absolute fact. Step outside your little box, it doesn't suprise me that someone as old as my mother who speaks to children on the internet and participates in anime RPG's has such an utterly narrow minded, condsending view on drug users who are able to function just aswell as they are.[/quote]It's one thing to state your opinion TherapySessions, but to blatantly flame and attack other members is unacceptable. Further comments along this nature will not be ignored. And if Aaryanna_Mom is as you put it is "speaking to children on the Internet" I expect you to stop behaving like one and show some respect for others opinions even if you do not agree with them. Instead of going on pointless tangents of insulting them due to age or other reasons.

This thread has done fairly well so far, but if the snide remarks and snipping I've been seeing continues it will be closed. [/COLOR]

[Anakoni Stark]

[SIZE=1] well, to start off the answer the orignal posts question:

[B][U]Do You Disagree With Drinking And Drugs?[/B][/U]

No I dont, actually, I mean if they want to get high / stoned / drunk or whatever, they have the freedom to do so, there's no one really saying that they cant, unless they want to overdose.

my personal experence with drugs? omg. I can not stand them, I mean I live in Vegas for crying out loud, you cant smell the tobbaco from Las Vegas Blvd. [albeit very faintly] from my house. there are casinos all over the place, yet another legal excuse and reason to smoke yourself [and possibly those around you] to death, other drugs? it's very depressing, I've seen most of my friends when they were stoned, or high, it wasnt pretty, I find very disturbing when little middle schoolers start shooting up cos "they had nothing better to do"

my personal experince with alcohol? [B]NEVER. AGAIN.[/B] I went to Paris, last summer, and it's a customary tradition for kids over the age of fourteen to drink. I was like: "hell, I only live once right?" Four glasses later... holy crap, my head hurt like crazy, and I felt all sluggish and slow, my parents found it amazing that I could finsh four and a half glasses. They also said they liked the faces I made when it went into my system. :animeangr

I worry about my girlfriend though, I mean, when we had nothing else to do, she would drink alot, she alomst finished a bottle of wine [and she's only fourteen!]

[B]Now:[/B] The Prayer [Stained Glass Remix]
[B]Artist:[/B] Bloc Party[/SIZE]

[James]

[QUOTE=TherapySessions]
If people are thick enough to drive while they're on drugs or get hammered all the time when they're about to give birth to a child I don't think it means that others should suffer at their stupidity and risk prison terms over what is essentially a victimless crime.[/QUOTE]

[font=arial]While I do think that the laws have to be able to cover those who can't look after themselves (for obvious reasons), I [i]somewhat[/i] agree with the general sentiment.

Anyone can say "drugs are harmful". So is tobacco, so is drinking, so is riding very fast down a hill on your bike. Ultimately I don't think it's a question of the harmfulness of the substance - it's a question of whether or not that substance can be used safely and responsibly. If it can...well, that doesn't necessarily mean it should be legalized. On the other hand, I do think adults should be able to make decisions for themselves about responsible consumption.

Illegal drugs in general are certainly not representative of "victimless crimes". Unfortunately there [i]are[/i] many irresponsible users out there and unfortunately there are some drugs that are incredibly addictive to the point of being highly detrimental. The result of this is fairly obvious - large groups of users turn to stealing and so on in order to fund their habit. Is this the fault of the drug itself? For a highly addictive substance, I think the mere presence of the drug is a problem. And of course, it's the user who faces the ultimate responsibility.

But having said that, we can always sit back and say "oh it's the user and it's their fault, leave them to it". Unfortunately that just doesn't work - it doesn't work for the affected communities and it does nothing to help the users themselves (nor does it do anything to quash a violent and corrupt trade).

So the issues are certainly not black and white. A simple "drugs are bad" message really doesn't begin to cover it. On the other hand, I don't think we can have an attitude of "anyone can do what they want" either...neither attitude completely covers what is a relatively complex situation.

And guys...honestly, it's just a discussion. No need for personal attacks. How passionate you are about the subject is irrelevant; it is always important to treat others with respect. Please don't forget that.[/font]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='James][font=arial']And guys...honestly, it's just a discussion. No need for personal attacks. How passionate you are about the subject is irrelevant; it is always important to treat others with respect. Please don't forget that.[/font][/quote]I agree with you completely.

And having said that if any of my remarks were taken as an insult then I apologize as that was not my intent. ;) I am quite serious in my belief that illegal drugs are that way for a good reason. And as I already mentioned before, I have seen the negative effects. And the idea that any parent would consider it okay to get high when they still have children living with them who are not adults horrifies me. I cannot understand how anyone who has kids would even consider doing something so potentially foolhardy. That to me is a blatant show of irresponsibility. It's bad enough to even take other legal medications that could interfere with taking care of one's kids let alone illegal ones.

Oh and one other thing in regards to being part if anime rpg's, Mafia was a game, Survivor is based off of a tv show and Silver One is a Sci fi story, not one of those were anime in nature. And as for being old enough to be someone's mother... Goodness, that's just to funny, since I often hear the complaint that adults don't care about kids these days when the reason I joined in the first place was because my daughter is a member here. Getting older doesn't mean you don't have an interest in the world around you. ;)

And being narrow-minded? That's completely subjective hun. And depending on people's point of view, could be taken either way. Because in the end, all of us are narrow-minded in how we have our own opinion on things. And there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone.

[Posthumous]

I could never fathom drinking or smoking myself, but I understand those who do. Some see it as bad, although many people I've met seem to be moderate about it, and will have a cup or just one cig at a time which does not sound so bad, considering the stressful lives we live today.

[Humaru]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Trebuchet MS]Just like others are saying, anything can be abused. Drugs and alcohol are for people who really have too much time on their hands. I mean honestly, if you were playing sports or doing anything from playing video games to solving crosswords puzzles, you wouldn't have the time to drink or smoke. Myself, I live above the influence and choose my own destiny. I know that sounds cheesy but I want to live to see 60 and not die b/c of some dumb mistake I made at a younger age. If you need a good role model, choose CM Punk from ECW. He truly is an athlete who has an addiction to competition and not drugs or alcohol.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[Juke Box Hero]

The whole question is not the harmful effects of drugs and or alchohol. The question has to address whether or not someone can use a substance in moderation, to be enjoyed but not enslaved to. While heroin and cocaine seem to be rather harsh masters, many people can enjoy tobacco and alchohol without losing themselves.

Smoking causes cancer. Absolutely. Who cares? Not me. Everyone will die, so why spend the brief moments you have on earth crusading against something that may make it easier for someone else to get through their life. No one makes you become a smoker, although some find the craving too much to overcome by will, some also don't make it into the Navy SEALs or the Special Forces. I really begin to wonder about people who fight so hard against smoking, it seems to me that the majority of them do so for self validation, rather than true dedication to that cause. Like many homosexual advocates who appear to feel the need to validate themselves by making grand, dramatic protests about their sexual "orientations", anti-tobacco crusaders often seem to push their views upon others simply because they know they haven't to strength to smoke for pleasure.

What weakness! It is simply unfathomable to me to break someone else's privilege and happiness simply because you can't follow their path. Not everyone is special, not everyone will live the same way. I can respect a man who says, "I don't smoke." or "I'm gay." or whatever, and then lives it. I cannot respect nor should I respect those who proclaim, in the style of the Evangelical Missionaries the liberals hate so much, "Smoking will kill you! Stop now! In fact, it is so bad that we will campaign to make you stop!"

There's not a single smoker in the United States who doesn't know that cigarettes are harmful. Let people live their lives by their own judgments within reason. I am sickened deeply by oh so many holier-than-thou's who insist on making everyones life "perfect".

[Roleni-Chan]

Me personally was a big drunkie, big time stoner as well. Never Ciggys, I think they are gross. Not anymore but I think its wrong now. But doesn't it violate the First admendment of the United States?

[Johnny Justjohnny]

[quote name='Roleni-Chan']Me personally was a big drunkie, big time stoner as well. Never Ciggys, I think they are gross. Not anymore but I think its wrong now. But doesn't it violate the First admendment of the United States?[/quote]
[COLOR=Gray]
If the above post doesn't convince you of the dangers of drugs, then nothing will... Holy crap that was confusing.

I don't do drugs, but I think people should have the right to put whatever they want in their bodies. Notice I said whatever they [I]want[/I] - I think that there's a difference with ciggarettes because when you smoke around people who aren't smokers, you put things into their bodies that they want no part of... that's the line in the sand for me. [/COLOR]

[jen_sa]

I dont drink alot coz its totally bad for my health. I have a medical condition and if i drink it may cause me to have an attack at any time. I take prescription medicines but they're not drugs coz i have to take them accordin what the doctor asked me to do.

=>Jen

[Raiyuu]

They are drugs, technically. Just not illegal or recreational drugs. A drug is any substance that alters the way the brain or body works - any pill prescribed by the doctor (unless it's a placebo) is a drug.

It's just sad that the very word 'drug' has so many negative connotations.

[Guest darknightangel]

[SIZE=5]I never agree with these stuffs-THEY KILL (except those used as medications).God gave us brain so use it wisely.[/SIZE]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='darknightangel][SIZE=5']I never agree with these stuffs-THEY KILL (except those used as medications).God gave us brain so use it wisely.[/SIZE][/quote]

[color=deeppink]Two things: Pot won't kill you. I don't believe psylocybin mushrooms or peyote will either, at least from what I can find.

Second, a [i]lot[/i] of medications can kill. Whether this be by interacting with other medicines or just unfortunate side effects.[/color]

[Sephiroth]

[COLOR=DarkRed]If it's drugs then no, definately not. Even cannabis can have an effect on you through long term effects, even if it is in moderation.

Alcohol is something thats different for everyone, it all depends on whether or not you can handle your drink, if you drink in moderation then it's abolutely fine, still fine even if you let loose once in a while, what isn't fine is what your behaviour is like after a certain limit. Can you trust yourself when your drunk?

I used to go out drinking almost every weekend, I enjoyed myself and rarely ever did anything stupid (rarely being the key word :P ) but because of changes in circumstance over the years I've had to reduce it to maybe going out drinking once a month.

As long as you don't abuse it, alcohol can be something thoroughly enjoyed[/COLOR]

[TherapySessions]

[QUOTE=Sephiroth][COLOR=DarkRed]If it's drugs then no, definately not. Even cannabis can have an effect on you through long term effects, even if it is in moderation.

Alcohol is something thats different for everyone, it all depends on whether or not you can handle your drink, if you drink in moderation then it's abolutely fine, still fine even if you let loose once in a while, what isn't fine is what your behaviour is like after a certain limit. Can you trust yourself when your drunk?

I used to go out drinking almost every weekend, I enjoyed myself and rarely ever did anything stupid (rarely being the key word :P ) but because of changes in circumstance over the years I've had to reduce it to maybe going out drinking once a month.

As long as you don't abuse it, alcohol can be something thoroughly enjoyed[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

You do realise that the same could be said for the majority of drugs?

[Raiyuu]

A study conducted in England recently suggests that alcohol is a much, much more harmful drug than cannabis, in terms of addictiveness, immediate effects and potential long-term damage. They were trying to take into account every aspect of 'harm' when comparing drugs, so the way people act when under the influence is also a factor. Large groups of drunken people can cause significant harm to themselves, one another and innocent bystanders, while a bunch of stoners are unlikely to damage anyone unless they try and drive.

I think they also considered the fact that alcohol is legal and therefore can be consumed in much larger quantities.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='TherapySessions']You do realise that the same could be said for the majority of drugs?[/quote]

[COLOR=DarkRed]I used cannabis as an example because more people see it as a casual thing, or do you mean people can enjoy most drugs in moderation? If so then I strongly disagree[/COLOR]

[Itako0821]

Drugs are REALLY bad. Sometimes, they cause lung cancer and you have to cut the lung out. It's so scary...

[TherapySessions]

[quote name='Sephiroth][COLOR=DarkRed']I used cannabis as an example because more people see it as a casual thing, or do you mean people can enjoy most drugs in moderation? If so then I strongly disagree[/COLOR][/quote]

Well I didn't actually, but did you just say that people can't "enjoy" most drugs in moderation?

[Red]

[quote name='TherapySessions']Well I didn't actually, but did you just say that people can't "enjoy" most drugs in moderation?[/quote]

What is moderation when it comes to drugs?