Guest Raven131 Posted June 8, 2002 Share Posted June 8, 2002 (sigh) I hate war, why can't we all just get along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [font=gothic][color=crimson]Why do I always get portrayed as the unreasonable one here? And Gotenks, what did you mean by "kids backpedalling"? Anyway. Gotenks, if you read some earlier posts, you'd have read that yes, I too believe it is wrong, yet I also believe that it's worth it if a lesson is learned. Bin Laden, in his mind, had every right to retaliate. If you look at it his way, September 11 was perfectly acceptable. Not because he is a vicious minded evil bastard, but because he feels the injustices against his people warranted such retaliation. The same way that people feel about September 11, and the War On Terrorism.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [color=coral]Yeah, I know you're looking at it from that point of view...but it is nonetheless unacceptable, no matter what kind of opinion or view you have. I don't care what beef he has or how he thinks the USA has been unjust...he has [i]no[/i] right to commit murder. Nobody does. Had he declared war on the USA and attacked military only targets...then perhaps more people would say something like "okay, I can see where he is coming from". But the WTC had a daycare center in it...he even managed to kill defenceless children. And there is no justification on Earth for that.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Oh think of the children, some body please think of the children! People get over it! Haha suck **** you died - now lets leave it at that. America has done far worse to these countries and I say good on them, they final got a chance to have revenge and they took it. I feel sorry for anyone who was not an American in thoughts towers because they where not the ones bombing these countries. But to the Americans in that attack I would say [and would say to there faces] "you could have stoped this but you didn't so bad luck. better luck next time." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [color=coral]I could cut the stupidity in the air with a knife. I'm not even going to dignify that above post with any kind of thoughtful response.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Hay James, guess what! Over one million people die every day; these people just did in a different way. Why should they get more attention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [font=gothic][color=crimson]Because, Cloricus, these people didn't even have the opportunity to defend themselves or avoid it.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 I never thought of that, what a simple answer. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [color=royalblue]Precisely. This is really simple; you're talking about a large group of [i]innocent[/i] people being ruthlessly murdered. To even begin to somehow try and present a supporting point of view is nothing short of insane.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [font=gothic][color=crimson]First unreasonable, now insane. Why is everyone so undiplomatic?[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i] [B][font=gothic][color=crimson]First unreasonable, now insane. Why is everyone so undiplomatic?[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE] [color=royalblue]What is undiplomatic about opposing mass murder?[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [font=gothic][color=crimson]I didn't say that, I said you've all come riht out and said I'm insane and unreasonable. Now, I may be, but it's still not nice to come right out and say it.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Why will know one see this from the middle eastern countries point of view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [font=gothic][color=crimson]Sorry cloricus, we went over that already.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 I know. But I believe it was a waste of time because James and some other people on this thread didn't adapt their opinions to the other side?s point of view at all. You should always be open to new points of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B]Why will know one see this from the middle eastern countries point of view? [/B][/QUOTE] [color=royalblue]I think we have all considered that point of view. But some of your comments are not really representing that view in its totality. And the view of bin Laden is certainly illegitimate and unreasonable, so there isn't much point in entertaining it. The Harlequin: Nobody is calling you insane or unreasonable, and I certainly haven't called anyone those things. I've merely said that some [i]opinions[/i] are unreasonable.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 James, look on a map and see where you are. I seem to remember that you are allowed to have any point of view with out others putting you down for it in this country, am I wrong? And I have that you do not care at all about the people dieing right now because of American air raids all because "they started it." This is getting extremely childish now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B]James, look on a map and see where you are. I seem to remember that you are allowed to have any point of view with out others putting you down for it in this country, am I wrong? [/quote][/b] [color=royalblue]So just because we are from the same country, I'm supposed to accept a view/opinion which misrepresents the facts? I'm not putting anyone down personally, but I have just as much right as anyone to be critical of someone's opinion/comment. Others will agree or disagree with me and they are free to voice their own opinions, I'm certainly not stopping them.[/color][quote][b] And I have that you do not care at all about the people dieing right now because of American air raids all because "they started it." This is getting extremely childish now. [/B][/QUOTE] [color=royalblue]Once again, you're taking a broad range of my comments and attempting to summarize them in a very simplistic fashion. Of course I care that civilians in Afghanistan have died due to air raids. Did I ever say otherwise? No, I didn't. But you must understand the differences here. We are talking about one group of people being maliciously murdered and we are talking about another situation where some people are dying because they are unfortunately in the middle of a warzone. I am not under the illusion that the United States is [i]deliberately[/i] killing innocent people. It's very unfortunate and I am greatly saddened by the death of any innocent person. But America is completely justified in what it is doing in Afghanistan; if it just sits on its hands and does not attempt to physically remove entities like the Taliban or Al Qaeda, who is going to do it? To try and compare the two situations is not very constructive. I've never cast a wide generalization here -- I've spoken very specifically about my concerns. If you honestly believe that I support innocent Afghans dying (just because I support going after terrorists), then you are not only mistaken...but I would really have to wonder how anyone could so blatantly misinterpret what I've said. It is that kind of misinterpretation which makes this discussion stupid/silly. The discussion itself is completely fine, but only if you don't resort to making silly generalizations about my comments.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [font=gothic][color=crimson]So, American is justified in the killing of innocents, due to their cause, but the Taliban isn't, that's what you're saying. To the Taliban and their ilk, America is as corrupted and evil as the Taliban is to us. The difference is intent then. They meant to kill innocents, America didn't. That's the only real difference, and intent means nothing. So there is no difference.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i] [B][font=gothic][color=crimson]So, American is justified in the killing of innocents, due to their cause, but the Taliban isn't, that's what you're saying. To the Taliban and their ilk, America is as corrupted and evil as the Taliban is to us. The difference is intent then. They meant to kill innocents, America didn't. That's the only real difference, and intent means nothing. So there is no difference.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE] Intent means nothing??? what?? So what youre saying is that there's no difference between a mass murderer and someone who accidentaly ran someone over? because if intent really does mean NOTHING, then that's exact what you're saying. pick your words wisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i] [B][font=gothic][color=crimson]So, American is justified in the killing of innocents, due to their cause, but the Taliban isn't, that's what you're saying. To the Taliban and their ilk, America is as corrupted and evil as the Taliban is to us. The difference is intent then. They meant to kill innocents, America didn't. That's the only real difference, and intent means nothing. So there is no difference.[/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE] [color=royalblue]Yes, intent does make a significant difference. And this is exactly why the world is not simply black and white. I am not saying that America is justified in killing innocents due to their cause. You posted in your message that I said that...when I didn't. And that is your first fundamental mistake. When you are ready to argue against my [i]real[/i] points, please do so. I don't appreciate people making up ficticious things that I'm supposed to have said. Secondly, let's look at this in a realistic fashion. Al Qaeda essentially bombed and destroyed two towers, killing thousands of people -- people who had done absolutely nothing to deserve such a fate. And America's response has been to enter Afghanistan and attack the Taliban/Al Qaeda -- initially by air and then on land. Your above comments surprise me in the sense that they are highly naive. In a wartime situation, civilians are going to die. That doesn't make their death acceptable, nor does it mean that their importance is diminished. But did America go over to Afghanistan in the first place and deliberately kill as many civilians as humanely possible? Of course not. That is what [i]Al-Qaeda[/i] did. In fact, the United States put a great amount of effort in deliberately targetting military-based compounds and infrastructure. Did Al-Qaeda try to approach their attack with similar dilligence? No, of course not. I'm sure you can see where this post is going -- I shouldn't have to explain the logic behind this method of thinking any further as it should be obvious to any person reading. There is an utterly massive difference between an accidental, off-course missile, compared to flying a loaded plane into a tower, with the intent to muder as many people as possible. Don't insult my intelligence any further by making such naive assumptions...you know very well what the difference is and you know very well what my point is.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Nothing in war is accidental. Intent does mean nothing, use this example. "I had no intent to kill that person" - Court trial 20/4/2002 That guy had no intent to kill the person but the person is dead thus intent makes no difference. I would also like to point out that any attacks you people write about how backwards these cultures are you should remember they have survived successfully like this for over 3000 years. The western world has only lived like they do now for the last 500 and will soon destroy it's self. James I?m not going to reply to what you have said because at any time you can ban me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [color=royalblue]So you're telling me that a well-aimed missle which then goes astray of its own accord is the exact same thing as deliberately taking a fuelled-up plane and ploughing into towers full of people? That's ridiculous. As for attacks/cultures...I'm not saying that "these cultures" are backward. The terrorists are driven by fundamentalist religious dogma and little else. Their specific reasons for attacking the United States have little to do with the country's real affect on the Middle East at large. So to try and make some vague religious motivation a legitimate justification is pointless. There are huge differences between the motivations and goals of both entities.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B] Intent does mean nothing, use this example. "I had no intent to kill that person" - Court trial 20/4/2002 That guy had no intent to kill the person but the person is dead thus intent makes no difference. [/B][/QUOTE] Umm... could you be a bit more specific?? ''I had no intent to kill that person'' means nothing to me.. they could have ran the person over, murdered them, it could have been a case of medical negligence for all I know, so [i]be more specific[/i]... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 This is a good time to bring this up. There is this interesting concept that put simply is that if you tell some one some thing enough times they will believe it. Now I have been reading about this lately. You can see a perfect example of it in James. All his posts say with out a doubt that Al-Queda and Bin Laden did plan and carry out the attacks. Now you might say ?but they did!? I put a challenge to you ? find me one, that?s right just one authentic peace of evidence that they did have any thing to do with it. You are not allowed to use the video that the American government put out saying that Bin Laden admitted that he did any thing. It was misrepresented and mistranslated by the American government. James you seem to use very little evidence and put people down to try and sound like you know what you are talking about and sound superior. [Quote] You?re above comments surprise me in the sense that they are highly naive. [/Quote] You do not know every thing. You will not accept any one else?s opinions. You are putting people down for their views. This thread is for peoples? opinions if you are not going to let people do that. I cannot stop you but only ask you to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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