Lafleur

[COLOR=DarkRed]I think my last name is wierd... It's actualy my middle name, but shut up. Kilpatrick, lmao. It's not even what you'd think. It's Irish, and I've been told that Kil means "wood" and this is why its funny. I'm named after Patrick's Wood. Is anyone else named after some guy's manhood? Am I alone? [/COLOR]

[quote name='Retribution][SIZE=1']That's just as possible as what I suggested. I mean, I believe that what I said was right, but we don't know who is ultimately correct until we die.[/SIZE][/quote][COLOR=DarkRed] No, it's hardly just as possible. Human nature is a predictable thing. When they (We) encounter somthing that they (We) do not understand (i.e Earthquakes, Volcanoes, or Ice) we make up things that give us comfort. They (We) take (took) comfort in knowing what caused the earth to split or what caused their drinking water to freeze. By inventing somthing like God or the Gods they had an explanation for it all. This is why no 'Mircals' have occured, as such, in the last few hundred years, because now we can explain everything or at least study them. The Ancient Greeks had no idea what caused Earthquakes. They were scared. Suddenly somone comes up with the idea that it's the wrath of Posideon and that by sacrificing things to him they can quell it. It's human nature to DO somthing, even if it's futile, and the Ancient Greeks couldn't do anything, so they invented somthing to give them the illusion of doing somthing. Human Nature created religion. Religion created God. Ifso Facto, God is a creation of man. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE] Now you're just making no sense, lol. God didn't "invent" religion. When He created Man, religion, being the worship or adoration of a deity, was obviously set in place. And He told Man to worship him not because He's narcissistic, but because He created man, and everything else in the Universe. In fact, it isn't within the realm of possibility for him to be narcissistic, lol. He is a trillion times better than anything that ever is or could be. He only has a very well-adjusted view of things, a view which doesn't occur to most humans, because in their realm, they're the greatest things in existence. [/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Ok, than man Created religion. See what I'm trying to make you figure out? That means that Religion is a creation of the Human imagination. Get it now? By the by, I didn't mean that 'God' is a narcissist, it was an analogy to point out that either, A, God is flawed or, B, he was created by man.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]Of course. I was just saying that you're not winning. XD[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed]Ya well, your not winning so :P[/COLOR] [QUOTE] Anything can become a sickness in the wrong hands. Anything can be warped and twisted for selfish reasons. Religion just happens to be very popular, so it's very commonly been the victim of such things.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] It's not commonly twisted because it's popular; it's commonly twisted because with religion when somone questions your actions you can just say 'Silence heretict, or I shall excommunicate thee!' whereas with other things, like Politics etc, they have substance to question. Questioning religion is like punching a ghost. When you question somthing of-this-world there is at least some way to fight, even if it might have ended up with your head on a pike. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] Anything can become a sickness in the wrong hands. Anything can be warped and twisted for selfish reasons. Religion just happens to be very popular, so it's very commonly been the victim of such things.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] No, but it in a way (Stay with me here) does on a certain level. If God was all-knowing, than he should know that giving human beings religion would just give us a reason to butt our heads. Why would God give Humans religion if he knew this? The argument could be made that being a God without worshippers is like being a Narcissist in a world without mirrored surfaces, but in that case God is not the perfect being he is made out to be. Than the argument can be made that, if the God is flawed, than the religion is flawed. Hey, just a thought, but who knows. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] These sinners did not initiate a personal relationship with God -- Hitler surely did not beg for repentance, and I have serious doubts about any sincere confessions from Inquistors. If we're running with JBH's definition, that would mean Hitler was not a Christian. He called himself one, but only for the purpose of uniting his country.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Hitler may well have; no one was in the bunker with him when he shot himself, and he is reported to have spent many of his last days in deep prayer. As for the Inqusitioners, well, I don't know who has the right to judge if a confession is sincere or not, but it's certainly not you and it's certainly not me. For all we know many of the Inquisitioners did and many did not: it's one of the fickler aspects of religion.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Well, as it turns out, the root in my tooth literally died, or so my Dentist tells me. That is extremely, extremely, EXTREMELY, bad. The pain I was experiancing was bad, but I did not know what to compare it to at the time. My dentist (And he's a really good one to, won a few Provincial Awards) tells me that the pain of having a root die is enough to put most people in a pain-endused-coma, or in the emergency room. Well, I took the pain somhow... So if somone says this hoser can't take pain, you tell them to go suck a prune. That is a bit depressing... But, then again, having the root canal should be nothing, right :D Wishful thinking? Ya probably. That just reinforces the fact that my worst day truely was my worst day.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]I said nothing about a sinister plot, only that they were waging war because they were vain bigots. And my entire point with both of those instances was that they're horrible examples of Christianity.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Nay, they are horrible examples of Humanity. They are perfect examples of what a sickness Religion can become in the wrong hands; and there is nothing preventing it from falling into the wrong ones, as Catholisism (Pre-Reform, at least.) and Islam can attest. The Inqusitioners vain bigots in the name of Christianity. I know that post-reform Catholisism has significantly improved in this area (Though I would still like to see them be a little more librel on a few wee things, like condoms and homosexuality) but that's not my point. As for the Crusaders, trust me, the Peasents Crusade and the Knights Crusade were both faught to take back the holy land and convert or kill all of Muslimdom. The Muslims were just lucky that The Peasent Crusade, The Knights Crusade, and the Kings Crusade were all terribly planned, formed of mostly untrained rabbel of zealous idiots, and that the Bubonic Plauge was thinning their numbers. It was a war faught in the name of Conversion of the Muslimdon. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] And anyway, racism would easily take for a different justification.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] Anti-Semitism draws it's heart not from race but from Religion. Be it Christians or Muslims the Jews have faced some terrible crap over the centuries...[/COLOR] [QUOTE] Well, if that's your grounds for victory then I'm all for it. [/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Comon, neither one of us expects to convert the other. It's just fun to try, and I prefer to try with my opponents own logic. If I didn't, it would just be "But God did X" "No, God Doesn't Exist" "Yes he does" "No he doesn't" and so on and so forth.[/COLOR] [QUOTE] Actually, that's exactly what I was talking about when I posted that, lol. So yes, it has everything to do with the current situation.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] No, it doesn't. When it was posted, it was because somone said that the persons actions don't make him a Christian; in my case, I was pointing out a Christian who was doing somthing wrong. I have no more right than you: I do, however, have the right to say that a Christian is a Christian. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] Being a Christian is defined as follows, and this definition is easily backed up by the Bible: A sinner saved by the grace of God through the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, God's son. By initiating a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, one becomes Christian. This is done through a prayer that outlines the following perspectives/beliefs- yes I am a sinner, yes you (the person of Jesus Christ), have died and rose again to pay for those sins, I am sorry for those sins and asked to be washed clean in your blood. Baptism is an outward sign of belief, a proclamation of having accepted Christ in your life. Baptism is nothing more than a symbol. Because the status "Christian" is definable, and defendable, then it doesn't boil down to rights and priveleges in determining who is and who isn't. The facts stand as they are, and cannot be changed through the coloured glasses of perspective.[/QUOTE [COLOR=DarkRed] Ahuh, this goes on to prove my point that just because somone Sins (No matter how horribly or routinely) he/she is still a Christian. Hitler was a Christain. A good Christian? Nope. The person who expelled the Jews, a Christian? Yes. A good one? Well, depending on who you ask, yes and no. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE] I wasn't denying any animal's existence, lol. And even so, dinosaurs are covered in the "beasts of the land" part of the creation. And to settle the whole evolution argument, between me and you at least, I went back and re-read the beginning of Genesis. Here's what I found:[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] I was just saying that because somthing is or is not mentioned in the Bible does not mean it doesn't exist. It isn't, in fact, covered in 'Beasts of the Land' because, as I recall, the Bible says the world was created than and there, 6,000 years ago. Fossils are without a doubt Millions of years old. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] I'm not lying or exaggerating when I say that this is definitely the worst argument you've made yet, and perhaps one of the worst in this thread. Yes, Christians try to spread God's word because we happen to give a damn where you spend eternity, as mind-boggling as that may seem to you. The Inquisitioners and the Crusaders, however, were not doing that, and I believe you realize this in full. You're just running out of arguments, so you're making **** up. The Crusaders, as you said, interpreted the Bible to say that they should go start a vanity war (they didn't even claim to try to save the Muslims, by the way. Their self-proclaimed reason was to take back the Holy Land). The Inquisitioners interpreted it to start a genocide. The part you missed, though (or didn't feel like mentioning), is that these people were only using religion as a front. Religion had absolutely zero things to do with these acts. ZERO. They bent the Bible to fit their needs, and they are by no means anywhere near a proper example of a Christian. This should be obvious to you. [/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] The Inqusition was, by all means, a way of spreading Christianity. They were torturing people and forcing them to become Christian or they would basically burn them to death (Or some other form of torture) so yes it was a way for them to spread Christianity. The Crusades may have been faught over the Holy Land, but they were also faught to spread Christianity to the Muslim World. They had no intention of stopping after they took Jerusalem, they were going to convert or kill anyone who was not Christian. Don't froget, one of the Crusades was nothing but a Peasent Rabel of brainwashed fools spread the word of their God to the rest of the world. The other, more orginised, Crusades filed suite. Trust me, the peasents in the first Crusade, they sure as hell didn't have any sinister plot; they were dumb as ****. The Knights Crusade? Again, despite the name, made up mostly of peasents. The only Crusade that might have had sinister motives you speak of was the Kings Crusade, lead by Richard the Lionheart and a few other kings. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] And are you really being serious when you say, "if the Archbishop of Canterbury isn't a Christian, who is?" Because I'm almost inclined to think you're not, just for the sheer ignorance of it. Someone's position in an overly corrupt and overzealous system such as fifteenth-century Roman Catholicism doesn't justify them as being a great Christian. In fact, in those times it almost justifies the opposite. Again, I can't help but believe that this is something you realize already.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Explain to me what justification, other than religion, could the Archbishop of had to exile the Jews? I, frankly, don't see one. They were second-class citizens as it was, they posed no threat to him or anyone else, I don't see any other explanation for their suffering.[/COLOR [QUOTE]Frankly, it isn't working for you. Almost nothing you've said this entire time has been, lol. I don't mean to be harsh, but you really, really, really don't know anywhere near what you'd like to think you do about Christianity. [/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] I think it's working just fine. The debate is going well, I'm finding it fun, it's, by internet standards, a victory for me.[/COLOR] [QUOTE] EDIT: Oh yeah, and one more thing about what you said about the Archbishop and his Christianity: [/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] That statment is irrelevent. It was said in response to somone saying that somone was not a Christian based on what they did, because they ordered the death of 60,000 Million Jews or whathaveyou. The response is different because the person was saying that even though the person believed in God and that Jesus was his son, because he killed all those people he was not a real Christian. It's irrellevent to the current situation.[/COLOR]

[quote name='Break]Ha! Which Americans, the Native ones whom the American government exacted genocide on for four hundred years? Or the Afro-Americans who were slaves for hundreds of years before their life 'got better'? Or those Muslims who can now be arrested for pretty much nothing and detained in Guantanamo Bay? Oh, yes, [i]those[/i'] freedoms![/quote][COLOR=DarkRed] Not to mention the foreigners who suffer at the hands of American Justice. I remember a Muslim from Canada was at JFK Airport when he was detained, get this, with absolutly no other evidence againts him except that he had brown skin and was shaven (Since apperently Muslims only go to Allah if they're clean-shaven) He was sent to an Iranian prison for reasons I shall never understand, where he was kept in a 'cell' (More of a cage, actualy) about as wide as a Computer Monitor and about 4 ft long. Than, when he was released by the US government (I still don't understand this part; but it's what happened) he was given NO reperation for this crime-againts-nature, and when he sued the US government he lost the case and was fined 25,000 $ US. Justice for all my ***.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]I'm a bit of a natural swimmer, though not exactly a preformance one. I can more or less swim in any depth (I've swam across the deepest, coldest lake in the Province. Took me two hours and I had almost got hit by a boat. Twice.) and I love it. It sort of runs in my family. My sister is on the provincial team and is one of the fastest swimmers in the Country, so that's pretty impressive. I don't really ever swim in competitions... I just play around in pools or deep rivers or things like that.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Probably the strangest thing I can think of is... Well, I like to sing Monty Python songs at the top of my lungs when I'm alone. Trust me, nothing is more embaressing than somone walking in during a recital of "Isn't it Delightful To Have A Dong?" or "Knights of the Round Table" but it's still fun...[/COLOR]

[/QUOTE] The Bedouins were nomads. Therefore they had no native land. [QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Yes, the Bedouin were nomadic. That's my point. They more or less inhabited the entire Middle East, through Nomadic Wanderings, long before the Isrealites or the Cannenites came into existence. The only thing that may predate them are the Egyptian and Sumerian cultures.[/COLOR] [QUOTE] You know what? You missed my point. Perhaps I was wrong in judging who was Christian or not. I'll tell you this, which was the meat of my paragraph: God wasn't commanding people to go start the Crusades or the Inqusition -- that was human free will. You should know this better than most -- you're atheist, so to you, there's no possible way any 'God' told anyone to do anything, because 'God' is imaginary.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] No, they read the Bible and the interpreted it as do this or do that or whatever. I don't remember who said it, but it was said that most Christians try to spread the word of God in order to save people correct? The Inquisitioners were doing the same thing; on a completely different level, but it was the same thing. The Crusaders aswell were trying to save the Muslims from Hell. Besides, if the Archbishop of Canterbury isn't a proper Christian... Who is? And I may not believe in God, but I find the best way to poke holes in Religion is from behind enemy lines, so to speak. I use your logic that there IS a God and than question him that way. Much more effective, or at least more fun. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] Again, a good point here. But Jesus said that (I'm paraphrasing here) if you don't walk the path He laid down, no matter what you believe, you're still not a 'true Christian.' I sure hope the Son of God's word is a bit more legit than mine to you.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] To the people doing what they were doing, they were following the path of Jesus Christ on a extreme level. Jesus tried to spread the word of Christianity, so to did the Inquisitioners and the Cursaders. Why did the Archbishop of Canterbury exile all the Jews from England for a time? **** if I know. Christians never really made sense to me anyway.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Sage] And I wouldn't worry too much about "intervening with the culture". Imagine how we all would live if there had been no revolutionary steps in the history. We would still live from the land, hunting and gathering, struggling to survive in the wild nature. On the other hand, it wouldn't be that bad a thought... But the world progresses, and so must we.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] This is the only real problem with Islam. Because Islam preeches unquestioned obedience, they can't revolutionize, they can't make great strides in tech as they are now, they can't even leave the Middle Ages as they are now. Islam teaches blind faith and that's it's single, defining flaw. Even the reward for a faithful life sucks; 7 virgins. Woop-de-doo, 7 virgins... Who wants seven virgins when you can pick up 14 hookers on St.Catherns street for about 15 bucks? [/COLOR]

[QUOTE] In the Old Testament, he orders the Israelites to take back the Promised Land. The Israelites told the Canaanites to leave, but they stayed, and so they waged war. This is the equivalent of you leaving your house for a number of years, and return to it to see other people living in it. You tell them to leave, but they refuse, even upon sight of the deed. So, you take them to court, just as any person would. Going to court and waging war are analogous in this case, because in the Israelite's position, no court was going to move an entire nation.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] If I left my house, and my house belonged to me, was filled with my stuff, had my name on the Deed, than yes I'd be mighty pissed if they wouldn't leave. But the thing is that the Caananites (Oh, and by the way, the only cultur that Isreal was promised to was the Bedouin) had lived there for a few centuries. They had built their own cities and grown their own crops. The Isrealites themselves were just intruders in somone elses home, the Bedouin people were the only natives to the area, the Isrealites calling it their Promised Land is the equivilent of North Americans saying they are the natives of North America. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] As for the people into salt. God sent a messenger to the city, pleading with them to repent, to stop of their wicked ways. They basically told the messenger to go **** himself, and continued to do so, even after the messenger told them they would die for doing it. So... what happened? God killed them. Yes, very brutal, but this is because Jesus had not died for their sins yet, and so there was no real forgiving nature to God at that point. I don't really expect you to fully understand the Jesus dying for sins though...[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] So, what, is God some immature 5-year-old? Can't stand a little free will? In other words God is nothing but a Tyrant, if you don't do what he wants to kills you, correct? [/COLOR] [QUOTE] God never said to kill anyone not Christian. The Bible was written during Judaic times, when Christianity was just a sect of Judiasm. And I'm certain he didn't tell Jesus and the disciples to go kill others in his name. If you speak of the Inquisition or the Crusades, that was people justifying murder through God. They did not act as Christians, and marred Christian reputation as a result. I thought that this was pretty much clear, that God didn't condone mass murder of Jews or Muslims or Gentiles -- men did that.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] I've said this once before, I think, but I'll say it again. What gives you the right to judge who is a Christian and who isn't? As far as most people are concerned, Christianity is defined by the belif that God is almighty and Jesus is his son, or somthing along those lines. The Inquisitioners were Christian in their mind without a doubt. The Cursaders, well, they were just trying to take back Jerusalem and the Holy Land because they couldn't hold it from the Islamic Warriors. What about the exile of all Jews from England by the mouth of the Archbishop of Canterbury? What about the fact that Jews were treated as second-class-citizens all across Christendom during the Middle Ages? The hardships of the Jews and the hands of the Christians goes back much further than Hitler. And even then, Hitler was Christian beyond a shadow of a doubt. Read Mien Kompf or listen to his speeches, he may not be your vision of the Perfect Christian but he was most certainly a Christain. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] I don't understand at all when you mean "Spreading peace and love means killing everyone." As I said, God doesn't murder people in order to spread his word. It's humans, twisting the message to fit their wicked ends, like Hitler. Do you honestly think that God condoned the mass genocide? If you do, I find that completely blind, immature, and ludicrous.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] And I think your blind, immature, and ludicrous for thinking that you have the right to judge who's a Christian and who isn't.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Well, I've been to Europe (Britan, Italy, Greece, and Russia) and I must say that, with the exception of Russia, it's a fairly beautiful place. I love the Italian and Greek languages, Britan was basically like Canada just with soccer hooligins instead of Hockey Hosers. In Italy and Greece I was there looking at some old historical sites, I was at Pergamum (Better known as Troy or Illium) for a week or so, which was exciting for me being a Illiadophile. Russia was... well, to put it simply, ******. Ever since the Soviet Union collapsed, Russia has become so corrupt and ****-hole-ish it's disgusting. The Police Force is entirly privetly owned, 90% of the women you meet are hookers, it was really a terrible place. One of the people there said that if you break your leg, drive the 5 hours to Helsinki across the boarder instead of going to the regular hosptial. Finally, Europe is fine. No Canada, but it's fine. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1]I will concede, and admit that Christianity might be flawed -- I have no idea. But I do not think the flaw of the Bible is great enough to put a red stamp on Christianity and label it obsolete, flawed, and useless. I'm sure there will always be a slight flaw on anything humankind does; we aren't perfect, so of course following Jesus' exact words is impossible. All we can do is try our hardest, to lessen the degree of error we create, by following the law He gave. I do not think the entire Bible is a sham, or too flawed to use -- I believe it's message is the most important, and not the mechanics by which everyone tends to get caught up in.[/SIZE][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] Which message is that? I've read the bible and I've come back with many messages. Some times I get the feeling that God is a very bad entity (He repetedly orders people to kill in his name, or turns people into salt, or tries to wipe out the entire human race ((So far as I know, Satan never even came close to thst))) and that God wants to either convert or kill everyone not Christian, even if he maskes it instead of the obviousness of this message prevaliant in Islam and a few other religions. Other times I made out with an impression that God wants to spread peace and love (Which, I have come to conclude, means converting or killing everyone not Christian) so I don't really know what to think of Christianity and it's foundations. Maybe you should make clear which message you refer to.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]lium I really wish you'd use the correct term to describe someone, rather than just a derogatary insult because you disagree with their beliefs. In the other thread you called Chabichou a "fundamentalist" because of her position, and now you've called all Christians "fascists" because they believe they are helping people by trying to ensure they don't go to Hell. Again it's all down to faith, which is why this argument can't be won, I don't agree with trying to convert people if they don't want to be converted. I may hold the position that I'd be helping them if I do, but I'm not going to ignore their free will if they don't want to. But really how many people could be labelled as Fascists for trying to change the will of others ? How many people here could be labelled as Fascists under Ilium's grasp of the word because they've tried to change people's minds on issues. Here's the actual meaning of Fascist Ilium, as well as the actual meaning of Fascism.[/QUOTE] Wasn't using Facist in a literal sense, I was using Facist in a sense that a Facist form of government imposes what said government believes. It's the same with a religion that, basically, is telling you 'If you don't want to go to hell believe what I believe' that is the essence of Fascism. [QUOTE] As for the whole "if Christianity is right, all others are wrong," we will never know for sure. Again, you're basing this assumption off what is written in the Bible -- a historical document written by men. While I believe they were inspired to write, their message contains a 'human taint' if you will, carrying bias of the times. It was written in a time where there was very little to no tolerance, and of course this will carry over.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Considering that the only word of God is the Bible, there is literally nothing else to base Christianity on. Therefore, anyone who is basing Christianity on the Bible is basing their religion on a book that is also flawed. By this logic, Christianity is in fact flawed, no? [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=are i][COLOR=DarkRed] Okay then... metaphors... If you had the cure for cancer, the ability to save millions of people from a mortal death, wouldn't you share it? Wouldn't you want people to know so they wouldn't have to die needlessly? If you knew how to save people from an eternal death, wouldn't you share it? Wouldn't you want people to know so they wouldn't have to suffer needlessly? After all, what is a mortal death compared to eternal suffering? You may argue that this is uncomparable because cancer is a very tangible desease whereas Hell is a belief of a certain religion. But to Christians (eh, except the Lutherans...) Hell is as real as cancer, and even moreso. To Christians, Hell is worse, because cancer will eventually fade into non-existance while Hell is eternal, and much more painful. This is a Christian's motivation. Of course, offering someone the cure to cancer could also be considered imposing one's will on another. Just remember that while Christians may be persistant, we aren't forcing you to believe. It's your own choice, no one else can make it for you. (It's not our place to condemn you because you didn't choose to believe, either. We will simply believe you are wrong ;) )[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] There's one big flaw with your logic. You said it yourself, to CHRISTIANS, Hell is real. To the rest of us (That is to say, to Athiests) Hell may be nothing but an old childrens tale. But no one, NO ONE, (Ok, except maybe Scientologists. But they're nuts) can deny that cancer exists. And what if, perhaps, your religion was wrong. What if your metaphorical 'Cure for cancer' was infact just a a plesebo (SP?) drug that did nothing to stop cancer, and that the Cure for Cancer was on the path that you lead them away from. People can decide for themselves without missionaries kicking down their doors. (And I would know. 10 times a month those buggers show up, practically kick in my door, and make me listen to their boring lectures. I called the police a couple of times.) [/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Oh boy this is a toughy... Who to choose who to choose... Ahhhhh... Band: The Tragically Hip Why: Why? Simple. The Tragically Hip have one of the greatest, most poetic-minded, truely amazing song-writers singers of all time. Gord Downie. For 15 years their music has literally woven the threads of the Canadian identity, the sheer complexity of each and every song on so many levels is sheerly amazing. But not only can they make a good, touch-your-heart song (Like Fiddlers Green or Throwing Off Glass) but they really know how to belt out a bar-rumbly jam (See: Courage, New Orleans is Sinking, or On The Verge) I prefered them back before they became famous, back when they were a bar-band, back before "Poets" turned them into a more new-age-pop-band. In closeing... It's a good life if you don't weaken, don't wake Gus the Polar Bear, and get off New Orleans before it sinks. Close seconds were Rush and Tenacious D, and maybe Dire Straits ranks up there. So many bands... um... The Police... Trooper... Triumph... Gordon Lightfoot... ok, finally, The Beatles. What can I say? Who doesn't love the Beatles.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE] Ilium there's a huge difference between a "fundamentalist" and someone who is just expressing their opinion based on their religious beliefs. And for you to just label Chabichou as a fundamentalist because you don't agree with her opinion is ignorance of the highest calibre. I also take offence to you claiming that Catholicism has "never made the big great leap out of the Middle Ages", again just because the dogma of the Catholic Church doesn't mirror your beliefs, such as a young person suffering from depression should turn to drugs to help get them through it. [/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] You may be right, I may have jumped the gun and used Fundamentilist a bit quickly. But that is hardly intolerence. When I say it failed the make the great leap out of the middle ages, I say so because, back then, Human Rights meant nothing. Women were treated as second class citizens, handicapped children were killed outright or beaten, and that is the type of thing that I would have hoped was left behind with the Monarchy and Capital Punishment. But Islam (And on a much, much lesser extent Catholisism, not meaning to offend) never left that behind. I don't think that Religion should ever come before Human Rights. Islam is, unfortunatly, based on Intolerence (Ya know, the whole women cannot be seen thing, and the whole Death to the Infedels thing. I know it's not always interpreted like that, but it was written in the Qu'ran.) and it's not intolerence to be intolerent of the intolerent. Catholisism, on a MUCH lesser extent, puts Religion in front of Human Rights and that, on a humanitarian level, is intolerence itself.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE] That's what true Christians do. By sharing the gospel, we aren't trying to pressure you into our way of life for the sake of pressuring you into our way of life. We want to save people from a life of eternal suffering- show people freedom, healing, and joy. It's only natural that, if people really believed in Christianity, they would want you to believe as well.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] Than, by definition, all Christians (True Christians) are Facists. They are all guilty of 'Gentle Genocide.' Even if the intentions are good, that's notihng but imposing one's will on others. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE] I don't want to say anything offensive to gays, but well, a lot of people (including myself) believe that homosexual acts are are sinful, that they are hated and forbidden by God, and with very good reason I might add. So no matter what you say, no matter how hard you try, you're not going to make them (including myself) accept that homosexual acts are okay.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Oh Fundimentalist Islam... when will thee learn... Islam (Along with Catholisism and a few others Religions) never made the big great leap out of the Middle Ages. Why is it so damned hard for you to just say "Ya, well, I don't particularily like that, but they can do whatever they want?" Also, just because it's a Sin is the eyes of the Islamic world, does that mean it should be punishable by death? I mean eating Pork is a sin, do people get hanged for that? Grow up Islam. Grow up Iran. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE] Most Christians do go by the idea that the "seven days" thing was metaphorical, and each stage of creation could've lasted for ten seconds or ten billion years. Obviously, the latter is more likely. The reason Evolution couldn't have happened is because of the order of the creation of the animals, which doesn't line up with evolution, from what I recall. [/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] So? Dinos aren't exactly mentioned in Creation, do you deny their existence as well? [/COLOR] [QUOTE] In addition, I do believe in evolution on a small scale, like you described. As for why I can believe it on that scale, but not the large one that would logically follow? Well, part of it comes down to the faith we've been debating here, and part of it could be a result of several possibilities. One of which is that evolution was set into motion after the Creation was finished, and that it'll end before we see any major results.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] How can you look at the proof, the DNA evidence, the fossils, the whole thing, and still not believe that Evolution on a large scale is possible. Hyena's are related to Cats. Do they look anything or act anything like Cats? No. That's proof enough for evolution. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE]Okay part of those were indeed...bad but some were good. If you ever read the bible you would know that there where indeed wars, and God had orchestrated them himself, I unfortunately cannot say if any of these were orchestrated by God or man, because I truelly do not have an indepth knowledge of them, and I would not want to say something that is not true. But I know a little about the Spanish Inquisition....well not much really....I know that they tortured and killed people that didn't believe in their religion. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that these people were wrong in doing that, that is NOT something of God. It is wrong to force relgion on an unbeliever, so the bible says. The witch trials are another of those. It was wrong of those people to kill the suspected witches, it was wrong of them to kill them at all, even if they were witches, but their superstitious ways got the best of them and led them into sin. ( superstition is not of God). To kill innocent people who cannot defend themselves is always a wrong thing....UNLESS God instructed you to. Like with Abraham and Isacc. God told Abraham ( at least I think its Abraham....I might be wrong about that name so don't hold it against me) to sacrifice Isacc instead of a lamb. ANd since Abraham was going to obey God's command HE spared Isacc's life. It was sort of a test of Abraham's faith in God. According to God's word you are to immitate Jesus's life. Since he NEVER sinned you are to do your best to not sin either. As for Christianity being the cause of death, you are right that people did do those things in God's name, but you should know by now, living in this day and age as we do, that what people may claim themselves to be isn't always the truth. But there are those people who truely believe they are doing God's will when they are not. As I said waaaaay before, people make mistakes, they are fooled into thinking things that aren't true. Its part of being human to make mistakes, but the beauty of God is, if you realize your mistakes and ask for forgiveness, they are gone to Him. The consequences of those actions aren't gone but the guilt that comes from God is gone.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Now this is my favourite part. Who are you to say who was doing the word of God and who was not? The way the Inquisitioners (And trust me, I've done studies, they were 100% Christian) interpreted Christianity, torturing unbelievers was the correct method to follow the word of God. Just like with Hitler. Was he a good guy? No. Did he believe in what is the main-stream typical belif known as Christianity? No. But he was most certainly a Christian. For all we know, God could have been waiting with open arms when Hitler died. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] As for that one....if I understand it correctly that is....people who actually believe in "the force" like in the literal since are not true christians. As for "people" in general being nice. How do you know that they are truely nice because they like being nice people? How do you know that it isn't just a selfish front so that people will like them? I don't really good people as in what they do or how they are to people around them, but are they truely good to the deepest most inner part of their being. Are they truely a person of God.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] I never said that the Padawan Church of the Jedi Knight Faith (Correctly named) were Christians. I said that they were nice people (Although being a nerd is like a prerequisit) and a few were ********. I judge people on not their religion, I judge them on how I meet them. I've met some Christian fundie asswipes, and I've met some very nice Christians. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] And those other people....the Odinist ( I assume meaning the Norse whatever he is......wait is it norse....Agh...nother brain fart.... ) and the scientologists...I really have no idea in Heaven what or who they are.....but you actually met some? Interesting.....you get around a lot don't you...and you're what 14 this year......if this is really your account......don't believe it, but ya never know [/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Ya, Odinists are worshipers of Odin and the Asgard. I know some because, for a time, I was one. As for scientologists, well... Your not going to believe this but here goes.... The way I understand it, there was this Alien Overlord (Name escapes me) and he once ruled over the earth. Than these Gigantic Aliens (Again, name) came and tried to invade and kill all the primative humans. So the Alien Overlord chained these Gigantic Aliens to volcanoes and destroyed them with Atomic Bombs. These dead aliens released 'Thetans' and these Thetans intered the Human Body and that's what causes bad things to happen to human beings, and the only way to remove this Thetans is to become a Scientologists. It's really caught on in Hollywood. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE] I have as many questions as you do when it comes down to it. I don't understand everything, I don't have an answer to every debate. But what I understand is this, God tells me to do good things. He is really like a father. Christianity is not all about fear and rules and regulations. But about goodness and kindness and self control, gentleness, generosity and all those good things. But its foundation is love. Thats it love. You may not know why things happen, you may not know why God doesn't take the pain away right now, you don't know why he doesn't answer your prayers right away. But all that you really have to know is God is there and He loves you enough to save you from your bad fate. Christianit is not logical, its not practical, its not anything that this world will ever understand. I can explain and explain away my experiences to people, but they won't truely understand until they have felt their burdens lifted from them when they prayed that they couldn't stand them anymore, or when their all their worries are lifted and you're left with peace and tranquility. You have to experience God and not be doubtful of what He tells you. The christianity that God talks about in the bible is not a religion, because religions can become sin. It is a relationship with God.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] Based on love? Peace? Know, I think that the hundreds of thousands that died in the Crusades, Muslim and Christian both, they weren't exactly acting out a peaceful God's will. What about the victims of the Spanish Inquisition? The most neferious torturmen of the age, and they did everything in the name of God. Or how about the Salem Witch Trials? The burnings all through Europe? The Zulu (and other African tribes, aswell) weren'tt exactly thinking "Wow these are some real peaceful fellows" as the British cut them down because they were pagans. The Jews (Who suffered constantly all over Christendom) sure wouldn't call it a religion of peace. What's my point? My point is that for every life helped by Christianity, another was ended. For every civilization Christianity helped to bring into this world, another was snuffed out. I've seen enough Acts of God to formulate my own opinions.[/COLOR] [QUOTE] Okay....its kind of funny that you would mention the sub-conscious mind, because that is what we are learning about in my Sunday school class. Now...lets see.....according to God the sub-conscious mind in part of the world, it is the dead person that you used to be, before you were born again. It is your baser instincts. Now since things of God cannot be things of the world, because Satan is the god of the world. (I know I suck at explaining things so bear with me) SO things of Satan cannot be things of God. So no I do not think my "subconscious mind" did this, but I do believe it was my conscience, also known as the Holy Spirit who showed me what to do. Then I had to CHOOSE to act on it, which I did. ( sorry just had to get that in there) [/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Did you know that the Conscience literally IS your subcontious mind? They are one in the same. Oh, and I wasn't aware people were born again in Christianity... I thought that it was all Sherry and Giggles until the Rapture or somesuch. What kind of God would take people from paradise and thrust them back into this piece of crap. [/COLOR] And finally... [QUOTE] But I would like to ask you, morally speaking, what would it hurt to be a good person, who doesn't talk bad and offends people, who doesn't hate their enemies, becasue they are just like you, they hurt, they have problems? why is it so hard for people to treat people with kindness, helping them like they are your brother, be loving and helpfull? Why is it so hard to treat people fairly, and justly? WHy is it thought that being generous and merciful is being weak? WHy is it thought that it is okay that people should immitate people that do some of the worst atrocities in this world? Why is it thought that its okay to cheat lie and steal from a neighbor because you have nothing and they have too much?WHy is it thought a weakness to rely on someone who loves you so much that He gives up His life for you?[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] What does that have to do with Religion? I've met Protestents and Catholics, Muslims and Sikh, Pagans and (Believe or not) devout followers of the Force (Ya, as in Star Wars) I've met Scientologists and I've met Odinists. I've met a lot of athiests. Believe it or not, some people were complete ********. Some people were incredibly nice. This has nothing to do with religion. It's human nature to vary from person to person and Religion doesn't have a big impact. By the by, if you ever meet a Scientologist, try not to engage in conversation. They are, literally, the most insane-sounding human beings to walk the earth with the possible exception of Neo-Conservatives.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Just before I start a chew into this one... I'm going to come off as an asshole. I don't mean to convert you, I just live for debating, so please; don't be offened, just enjoy the spirit of the debat, eh?[/COLOR] [QUOTE] Yes you are right in some aspect. No you can't really take the bible litterally on everything in it....I never said you should. Like for instance: Mark 12 : 41-43 "41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. 42 And many who were rich put in much.Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His deciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury;" Of course the widow didn't litterally give more than all the people who gave, it was the symbol that she faithfully gave God all she had, trusting in Him to take care of her. AKA faith. But God doesn't give only these kinds of statements, like in verse I posted about Swearing " But now you yourselves are to putt off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, FILTHY LANGUAGE out of your mouth." It is a direct commandment. These things are NOT of ME therefore you shall cast them away from you. Thats what He is saying.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Aye, I'm aware of this that not everything can be taken literally (Maybe I phrased it wrong; what I meant is that just because the bible says it does not make it the law) and in a way the passage you qouted makes literal sense; The Rich people gave gold, maybe 1% or somthing of what they owned, whereas the poor woman gave her mits, which were somthing like 50% of her ownings. Taken this way, she did in fact contribute more than all the rich people in a quasi-literal sense...[/COLOR] [QUOTE] Well I think it was a week before they were supposed to come, when I went to Sunday night church. They happened to have communion that night, So I go up with My grandma and her husband, and they asked me If I wanted them to pray for any special needs. I decided that I was going to ask for them to pray about my Timid nature, to ask for boldness and certainty in God's will for me, I also asked as I always do for my family to be saved. Everything went as it usually did, little shaking and overwhelming emotions. So I sat down in my usual pew and thought over what I had asked for, and I suddenly realized that God had always given me boldness, and I only needed to act on it. Soooooooo, I decided to do something I had never ever done in the history of my going to church. I decided to sign up for the play that was coming. As usual everybody who knew me was estatic and I quickly retreat away from them before the squeezed me to death. Now a week later, I'm in the sunday morning sevice, its time for tithe and offerings, so I rummage around in my purse looking for a couple of dollars ( Note: I don't have a job and the only money I get is from my mom for the chores I do, which comes out to about $20 a month. Tithes is 10% of your income for those who don't know). Unfortunately all I have in a twenty....so I'm debating should I give what I have now or wait till next Sunday, which proabably by the time iut comes the money will be spent and gone. So I decide to do the impulsive thing and I gave it all. As usual everybody who knew me was estatic and I quickly retreat away from them before the squeezed me to death. Now a week later, I'm in the sunday morning sevice, its time for tithe and offerings, so I rummage around in my purse looking for a couple of dollars ( Note: I don't have a job and the only money I get is from my mom for the chores I do, which comes out to about $20 a month. Tithes is 10% of your income for those who don't know). Unfortunately all I have in a twenty....so I'm debating should I give what I have now or wait till next Sunday, which proabably by the time iut comes the money will be spent and gone. So I decide to do the impulsive thing and I gave it all. So now its Sunday night of the next Sunday, our first performance of the play. I had kind of tricked my family into coming by being in the play in the first place, because they wouldn't have come if I didn't. Not that it affected my decision in the beginning. Anyways, I was an angel, I had to stand on stage ALL hour and a half of the play, and we finally get to leave when our pastor comes up on stage and does the altar call ( where they call for those who want to be saved). The angel have to go off stage ang get their costumes off then come back into the sanctuary to help. Well them moment I opened the door to the sanctuary guess what I saw? Yep you're right, my parents and my sister are all up front by the stage having the paster do the sinners prayer with them. Now I'm estatic!!! I mean giggly, bouncy, the works. After they get done.....they mysteriously say they have a surprise for me.....( you might not really find this relavent but it means a lot to me, on how God rewards the faithful) So they take me outside and present to me......a car. My very first car. ANd that is the end of my story. [/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Do you ever wonder if it was not in fact God who gave you this courage? That, perhaps, because you prayed to him you (Possibly on a subconcious level) wanted to believe so much that you... well, Grew Up? I know how corny it sounds, but part of growing up is learning to give and learning to take risks and learning to be a better person, and your parents (In all their wisdom) noticed this and realized that you were no longer a timid little girl; that you were ready for things, like your first car. That's just a theory, and it seems just as possible as an answered prayer. But, hey, again I'm not here to convert you; merely to raise questions in the spirit of debate. So let's duke it out, loser picks up the 2-4. Sound fun? Good.[/COLOR]