Lafleur

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet] Oh and while I brought up work I got into an infamous religion discussion today because this one guy who was starting with me said he was going to Hell. I made the mistake (?) of saying I didn't believe in Hell, I believe in kharmic retribution because I'm not Christian I'm Wiccan This one lady said (and I quote) 'Well, that religion doesn't exist. I teach social studies (big *u**i** deal, you have a teaching degree) and we talk about all religions but that one. So it's not real.' :rolleyes: I said, Jamie Paganism is one of the oldest known religions, it [i] is [/i] real and I practice it. She kept insisting it wasn't real and looking at me like I'm stupid (because trust me most people there think I'm an idiot) then this other guy (I mentioned him in the second paragraph hint) said that I can believe whatever I want, it doesn't matter what someone else is saying and then he handed me a broom. I told him that i wished that myth was real. I plan on bringing one of my books on paganism to work on Monday. If Jamie wants to start on religion again I'll just tell her to read. Because she's the idiot with the teaching certificate, not me.[/color][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] Wow, she didn't believe Wiccan was a real religion just because she taught Religious Studies etc? How far up your *** do you have to be... Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't claim to be an expert on Wiccan, though other 'Paganisms' are very ineresting to me) but don't Wiccan believe more in a supernatural energy in all things? Not so much the worship of a god as in the belif of the supernatural, correct? I think that the woman may have had a bit of a point, though. It's not really 'Religion' so much as it's spirituality, as odd and inconsequential that may seem.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Who?]You're going to scoff at this one, of course, but it was Satan. Sure, he doesn't hold a candle to God's power, but often God will let Satan intervene and affect situations anywhere from this extent to simply tempting people. He (God) does this often as a test of faith, or - less often - as punishment. (Ganymede's take on punishment, mind you, was a little over-the-edge.) I'm just going to leave this debate at that for tonight. I'll see if I can get back on tomorrow, assuming this thing isn't dead by then.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Still, this means that there is another god, even if it's an evil one. If there's another god why can't there be a third one? Or even a fourth? It has to be mono-theistic or poly-theistic. If it is in fact polytheistic, which this seems to suggest, than the whole "One True God" thing is also fake and that still means that Christianity is in fact Polytheistic. If God was lieing about that than he is far from imfallable, and in fact, as I stated before, a hyporite.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE] And elaborate on this "not the One True God" thing for me.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] In the Bible, it says that some obscure prophet or other (Maybe Abraham or somone of that creed) confronted the Pharoah og Egypt, and he tried to convince him of the existence and power of his god. The Pharaoh's two priests cast down their staves and, ta da, two snakes. Than the prophet cast down his stave and created a bigger snake which supposedly ate those two. Now, how do you explain those Priests being able to create those snakes unless by the aid of another diety(ies)? Which one is more powerful isnt the question right now, that is the Word of God himself saying that he is not the only god. That is, by the Biblical logic, infallable proof that there is more than one God. Therefore, if you take the Bible seriously, you also believe that there is more than one God. If God is hypocritical about that, that means his word is not infallable, and therefore we can deduce that God himself is in fact either lieing to us or false entirly. I choose to belive the more rational, which is the latter.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1][B]Exactly.[/B] Problem solved. Let's lock this thread up and call it a night, ladies and gents. .[/SIZE][/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Ahh comon, it's all in good fun. Debates on the net never get anywhere, but they are DAMN fun if your into them.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]Ok, now give me some of your infallable evidence against God that is direct.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Truthfully, there is no evidence DIRECTLY. There is, however, hurrendous amounts of evidence supporting that what he supposedly did WAS fake, plagerised, wholly made up, or hypocritical. Walking on water, thats damn impossible. And if it was supossedly Divine Intervention, why, exactly, has no such miracle occured during these times, where it could be properly recorded? There is evidence that no one, NO ONE, can be swallowed by a whale, much less survive the encounter. There is even evidence, using the Bible's own Fiary-Tail logic, that God himself is not the "One True God." As I've stated before, if the direct word of God is made up, than there is not even a shred of evidence that he does exist. If somone's standing on a bridge with no supports I don't need to throw boulders onto it to make it collapse. The Theory of God collapses in on itself. And if you say faith, well, ants cannot hold up bridges.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]You missed it again. It isn't all about the evidence. Go back and read what I said about logic again, and slower this time. And do you have evidence that God doesn't exist? Sure, I guess. I haven't heard of any myself, but I will take your word on that. Wholeheartedly. However, there's also, I'm sure, real evidence that Atlantis exists. Lots of evidence, I'd venture to guess. Problem is, it doesn't. You get my drift?[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] Aye, aye, I get it just fine. It's Faith vs Evidence, the age-old battle. You can't win againts faith, it's like bringing a nuclear bomb to fight an ant. [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] By the by, there is no evidence in Atlantis DIRECTLY. However, there is proof that the stories of Atlantis were based upon a city, which, if memory serves, was on the cost of Rome or Greece (I froget exactly) and it was swallowed whole when a tsunami struck it and, literally, sunk it below the sea. The Ruins were discovered a few years ago. The Illiad is another example of this. Illium (Which, if you didnt know, is the correct name for Troy, and was the inspiration for my name and for the name Homer used to describe the epic) did not really exist. However, a city (Most likely Pergamum, for Homer used that name on occasion) did exist exactly where Illium was said to stand and there are records of them betraying the Greek Cities (Of which Pergamum was until it turned coats and became an ally of the Hittites or somthing of that nature) and the Greeks attacked and conquered it. The Bible is, in my opinion, a much larger scale version of this same phenomenon. The Illiad, though based on real events, was blown out of preportion gloriously. The so-called Global Flood has recently been proven to be nothing but a massive flood around the Meditteranian (An earthquake took down a natural damn and created massive flooding) and that was blown out of preportion. I can go on and on and on, but my point is this; The Bible was a massive fairy-tale that ranks up there with the Illiad and Atlantis, the only difference is nooooooooooooooooooooobody got the joke.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE] Obviously, I can't give any proof. You're missing the entire point of Christianity because you're basing everything off of logical thought and excluding faith and emotion. Those are as much a part of life as logic is, and should be looked at thusly. So no, you don't know Christianity as well as you think you do.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] I think I understand Christianity just fine. You see, just saying "No, your mountians of actual evidence mean nothing to me! God soooooooooooooooooooooo did it. Even if I dont have a scrap of evidnce, he sooooooooooooooooooooo did it!" isn't enough. That's what we call blind faith, and that is one of the weaker aspects of the human mind. [/COLOR] [QUOTE] And for that matter, saying "the wizard did it" is logical, anyway. We're not talking about some other human here, or some element of nature. We're talking about the power that created everything in existence and can do literally whatever the hell He desires with it. Since I believe that He exists, saying that he can stop incest is every bit of a logical statement.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] Yes I understand that it's all faith, but it's basically God (Who has, more or less, zero credible evidence) VS Things that prove that god is notihng but a figment of our imagination (Which, just so you know, has mountain ranges worth of imformation strangly laking from Christianity and religion in general)[/COLOR]

[QUOTE] So now I have set right some misconceptions on your part. I believe God because I see the things He does for me. Every good day I thank him for and every bad thing I thank Him for because he has a reason for me to be in those situations. " If God brought you to it, He'll bring you through it" [/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Care to expand on this? Maybe some example of divine intervention, directly or indirectly. Purely out of curiosity, I want to see somthing that is a clear example that it is in fact some devine being and not just some normal occurance (Better known as Life) [/COLOR] [QUOTE]Ps: for those of you who think that swearing is alright and it doesn't say anything in the bible about it. GUESS WHAT? YOU ARE WRONG!!! Take out your handy dandy bibles and flip to that wonderful New Testiment to Colossians chapter 3 verse 8.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] You cannot take the bible literally. If you took the bible, word for word, literally, you yourself would be both Pagan (For the belif there is more than just God, see my post about the Egyptian Priests) and devout. The Bible is a giant paradox of hypocrisy and other such falseties. BTW, not related to your post, I just want to post this to elemenate any lingering doubts about Evolution. [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution]Read the whole artical, not just the opening paragraph[/URL] [/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Sakura, MiE on a large scale IS what we call evolution. Tiny little changes, bit by bit, eventually change a creature beyond recognition. That's what evolution, basically, is. Things don't just transform overnight, over millions (Yes, Millions. That in it self disproves Creation BTW) upon millions of years, small little defects in animals change and morph, little by little, and suddenly you have an entire new sub-species or an entirly different animal. Depending on the situtation, an animal can be completely different from another animal of the same species. Now these different animals of the same species both undergo changes that are completely different. Thus the species diverges, just like humans and Apes did. Each time these animals have babies, their genes pass on these small (Practically always to tiny to measure) changes and over millions of years the species changes. I've already posted some examples of evolution in action. The Moths, though still moths, have EVOLVED into somthing thatn is completely different. The Amazon is full of these little sub-species. Recent expeditions in the artic, mostly around glaciers, have discovered a form of worm (Known, originally enough, as the Ice Worm) that, although still technecally a worm, is absolutly nothing like a normal worm. Even the insides of it are completely different. This is evolution not adaptation. Just so you know, fossils of Monkey-Men have been found. Everywhere. Even pre-historic cities have been found, although the names are complicated and escape me at this point. There have been homo-habulus (SP?) which literally means Handy Man, many of them have been found. Ever hear of Lucy? It is, basically, the missing link. Even older forms of manking have been found since. The supposed Missing Link no longers exists. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Who?]And I suppose you get this attitude from the idea that because something, anything, is simple, it must be wrong? Get off your pedastal, dude. And don't accuse Christianity of simplicity, because I can assure you that when you start learning about it, it's a hundred times as complex as Atheism. God doesn't always intervene straighforwardly like that (barely ever, in fact), but it does happen.[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkRed] Give me one properly recorded shred of proof that God ever directly intervened with anything. And don't even try to use the crash at Toronto as an example. As John Stewert put it, the only mirical there was the lightninbolt that struck the plane. Oh, and by the by, I have studied Christianty in depth. I've had several 100-page arguments with people over it. I know more about it than you, most likely. And I know it's a complete crock. What Sage said was correct; Saying it was 'Devine Intervention' is exactly the same as saying 'The Wizard Did It' or somthing along those lines. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Ask your RE teacher how the two Egyptian priests managed to turn their staves into snakes, even if they were supposedly eaten by the bigger one. The only explanation, by the bibles on logic, is that there are more G(g)od(s) than just the supposedly almighty one. That's my personal favourite, because, if you believe the bible, that means that you believe in more than one god, therefore making you both a pagan and a devout which is a bit of a paradox. I usually get a kick out of it.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Oh yay, looks like I've got an argument on my hands... [/COLOR] [COLOR=SlateGray] [QUOTE]Well, it's arguable that anything's still evolving. Humans are, at the least, impeding our own evolution with the advents of technology. But that's another story for another time.[/QUOTE] [/COLOR][COLOR=DarkRed] Actualy, there is evidence that much of the world is still evolving. Especially in the Amazon Rain Forest, were new species and sub-species are constantly being discovered. One of the more graphic examples of Evolution (Or maybe Mutation would be a better term) occured in a coal mine in England. A sub-species of moths, which had begun to inhabit the mines, was discovered to have evolved into a completely different organism, it's lungs had changed completely so that it could breath the Coal Dust (It's true; the moths die in open oxygen) and it's entier outer body had turned coal-dust-black. Evolution at work. [/COLOR] [COLOR=SlateGray] [QUOTE] Note: there is a reason they are called "miracles." These events occured because of God's will and God's blessing. That's how it could defy physics - it's a faith thing. I'm not saying it necessarily DID happen, I'm just saying there is the explanation.[/QUOTE][/COLOR][COLOR=DarkRed] I know this; it's why argueing againts religion is so difficult, but also why I love it. [/COLOR] [COLOR=SlateGray] [QUOTE] And you used the wrong form of "you're," genius boy. Though...you are correct, in essence.[/QUOTE][/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] Mind Fart :animeswea [/COLOR] [COLOR=SlateGray] [QUOTE] Still you've got to wonder how our minds grew so advanced. Or how, even, we developed those necessary sensory organs. Evolution, I know...but still, it's a bit odd that we've developed so successfully, don't you think?[/QUOTE][/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] Yes, it may be a bit odd. But, when you think of the odds, it was inevitable. Out of the trillions of trillions of some unimaginably high number of starsystems/solar systems/Galaxies out there, it would seem inevitable that at least one (Which just happened to be one small blue-green planet populated with carbon-based life forms) would develope some kind of conciousness. No one understands the complexities of the brain, but there are some theories as to how it evolved. Primative (And I mean pre-Cro-Magnum-man Primative) humans (Again, little more than apes) that lived in the open planes began to rely more on meat (Aswell as Bone Marrow and several other protien sources) than their tree-dwelling cousins. That extra protien (And protien has shone to increase intellegence and brain functions) gave them primative thought and, add 3 million or so years to develope, you have yourself the modern human being. [/COLOR][COLOR=SlateGray][COLOR=SlateGray] [QUOTE] You believe by not believing, and I believe by having faith in the possibility that there is more to life than facts and figures, brief life and an eternal oblivion.[/QUOTE][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=DarkRed] And I respect your belif as you've shown respect for my belifs, or lack thereof. I only went on that little *caugh* rant because dustandtears challanged somone to, quote, "try and defeat me1!!!!!!!!!! you can't." and I sort of couldn't resist. I live for debating, if it's about religion... All the better. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Sage]I'm sorry, but you just lost the respect I had for you, Ilium (although I think you couldn't care less). :( You have the [I]nerves[/I] to say to a little kid (that Tearsanddust obviously is) that taking some drugs will make his/her life that much better?! That's sickening in it's wrongness! Although your "shrooms and weed" might not be as bad as the heavier drugs, they're right up there with alcohol. They DO have a lasting effect, although it's not instantly visible. They cause damage to braincells, lungs and other organs. They make your mind dizzy and affect your senses. In an underdeveloped kid the effects are many times worse! I don't care if you want to get kicks out of toxins, but I strongly advice you not to spread "the good word" around or you'll find yourself in deep ****, in real life as well as in this here forum! [/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed] Well I'm sorry that you've lost all the respect you had for me. I don't see any reason for you to just because dustandtears asked for somthing to get her out of depression, and I answered with somthing that's worked for me. Sorry for losing your respect. [/COLOR]

[quote name='duStAnDteArS']

[COLOR=DarkRed]I've had to deal with bullies my whole life. I've gotten used to em'. I, being a typical overweight nerd, have been bully prey since I can remember. I have noticed, however, that a bully, taken from it's natural enviroment (I.E outside of school) and seperated from it's herd (I.E ambushed without his friends to back him up) can be easily dispatched and taught not to mess with you again through gentle persuasion (Better known as broken ribs and a missing finger. Ok, it only happened once, but he never bothered me again) and thus bullies become nothing more than timid little hyenas that only come after you if your down. Still, I hate bullies with every fiber of my body, and they're lucky they don't play rugby... They're a completely uneccessary part of life meant merely to drive people to suicide (Which, however, may only be Teenage social structurs form of Natural Selection; thinning out the weak, so to speak) or other unpleasent things. I wish the school would do more... [/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Personally, I'd suggest Shrooms or Weed. I know all that hubub about how Drugs are bad and such, but if you stay away from coke, heroin, and PCP, you should be fine. Shrooms and weed. They do wonders for the immagination. But if you live in the US drugs are punishable by a hefty fine (In Canada they just make you share) so if you want to avoid that, try looking into new music or reading some new genre books. Or don't. Shrooms and Weed. Pick up some Pink Floyd and let the bells ring n' ring n' ring n' ring... If you need somthing new that is the way to go. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Aye, Highschool... She's a *****. I remember that on my first day (My first class was French, which is bad because I HATE French) I literally didn't know anyone in my class because all my old friends got put into the other Grade 8 class. It was alright though, not nearly my worst day, ended up making two new friends so it was all good. My worst day (That I can remember) was two days ago. Now I have a history of terrible, terrible dentel hygien. About a week prior, one of my teeth (Riddled with cavities, because I absolutly hate going to the dentists and broke out of the chair and ran for my life when I was supposed to have them filled) cracked. And I dont mean "Ouch I think my tooth is wiggly" crack. I mean "Omg my tooth just broke in half" crack. That itself didn't hurt, but, 3 days later, lo and behold, here comes the worst day of my life. It was literally the worst experiance since the rectal thermometer. At first it only hurt when I touched it. But by day 2, it was just a constant throbing. I took Atasol to try and stop the pain, which was only a fragment at the time, and it worked for about 5 min. The next day, biting into a sandwhich, I broke it more (Seriously, a giant crack right down the length) and it hurt like bastard, it was the most terrible pain, but it only lasted about 5 min. Than, for about a day, it stopped. Now here comes my "Worst Day." See, that day it was about 39 C (Well over 120 F) and I tell you what, I hate the heat with every fiber in my body. So, anyway, now my tooth was CONSTANT pain. It was those 5 min of pain every 30 seconds. And, as tooth-ache victims will atest, the worst part about tooth problems is, unlike a headache or a cut, you can't even press againts it (Which is more of a comfort than anything) so I was in literal constant pain for the entire day, not to mention I was sticking to everything, my CSS server had crashed, and my 300-dollar RC car broke up when I launched it off my porch. Now the worst part is when I was trying to sleep. I don't know about you, but when I try to sleep at 40 bloody degrees while in constant pain I get in a TERRIBLE mood. Than here's the kicker. My mom has terrible teeth aswell, so she keeps this numbing cream on hand. Extra strength. So I used it on my gums above the terrible pain. The gel did not freeze the tooth. It dripped down and put my tounge to sleep, so I was basically mute, it froze my lips, so I was terribly discomforted there, and the gel that went down my throat numbed it leading to the most awkward sense that I was choking. May not sound like a "Worst Day" but I bet you've never experiacned somthing like it. Oh, and today, the has mysteriously... vanished. The tooth in question seems to have cracked down the center while I was sleeping, for now whenever I touch it all I feel is a soft, tissuey type thing that I assume is the center of the tooth. Either way, the pain is gone, unless I touch it, in which case it does hurt. [/COLOR]

[quote name='duStAnDteArS']why are we so scared to believe in God? you can't be totally self sufficeint , you can't show God humans can evolve wihtout him! the guy that made up the thoery of evolution also hated god and wanted to prove him wrong and his real father too! guess what? evolution is stil JUST a THEORY, its not proven its a THeory. if you don't believe in god it shows your ignorance, and you refuse to be open minded about it. you are only hurting your selves! what do we have to lose by believe in the father, jesus christ and every other frickin so called saint? NOTHING. God loves you and will give you evrythign you could ever want and need . don't be a hypocrit and close the eyes of your heart to unseen beauty of the world! did you ever think of death, what willhapen when you die? do you believe that we just die seep into the ground,? picture it in your mind the smallest child who dies at birth(and dont say god killed his own child1.) everythign bad in this world coems from the devil and it is up to us to face him and fight him 2.) the child is w/ god now anyhow) , somethign so small and innocent will just cease to exist? no. we have a soul that give us life and spirit to this dirty piece of flesh we call a body! i believe in god, i am a christian , i belong to no religion but my own.... you can contradict me all you want! say what you think is right, but your life will always be missing something till you find the creator! gods words are sharper then any two=edged sword so try and defeat me1!!!!!!!!!! you can't.[/quote] [COLOR=DarkRed] I'm fairly certain I can... Evolution is in no way a theory. Evolution is PROVEN, it is happening all around us, it is happening AS WE SPEAK. If you wan't to believe in God it shows your ignorance. Science has proven that it is impossible to walk on water, that it is impossible to be swallowed by a whale, that it is impossible for waters to part (Although a fissure from a volcanic eruption can emulate this) and Noah's Ark was not buildable (Considering that the tech for a craft that large didn't exist until MUCH later ((Roman-era was the dawn of real ship building))) not to mention that the so-called global flood was nothing but a massive flood around the Medditteranian. You used hypocrite incorrectly. You didn't even use proper grammar (Couldn't hold down that shift key long enough to finish your usless !!!!!! strings, eh?) and a lot of what you said makes no sense (Your a Christian but you belong to no religion?) Lastly, the human body is a limitlessly complex organism that, basically, is a group of cells all doing their jobs. The only thing we are yet to understand is how the human mind works, for it is by far the most complex organism on the entire planet. We are hardly pitiful pieces of flesh. If god loves us, if he's a devine being, if he's all powerful, why did he not help the Christians win the Crusades? Why did he not stop the Ottoman Muslims from taking Jeruselum and Constantinople/Istanbul? Why did he not appear to the Native Americans or the Inuit or the Aztec or the Inca or the Maya or the Aborigini or even the Greeks! God is a make-believe figment of the human imagination. Grow up. Humans are not so much God's creation as God is the creation man. I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. -Albert Einstien [/COLOR]

Just curious but... What, by definition, makes music Metal as opposed to Rock?

[COLOR=DarkRed]I know what ya mean... But if your a real nerd you'll do your damndest to get ahold of it. I have to drive three hours into Kingston or Ottowa to get mine (Quebec, because Quebec is the dumbest bloody province since Neefoundland, doesn't support Games Workshop for whatever reason) and it's worth it for me. I suck at painting though... Damn fat fingers![/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Coke is, by far, the best. Nothing tastes quite like it, nothing is quite so refreshing on a hot day, nothing is quite so sharp on a cold one. Truely the king of drinks. Except Ginger Beer. Damn that stuff BURNS. Pepsi is just coke run down a trough while 5 Latvian Midgets (Covered in Garlic Dressing for no apperent reason) piss in it. [/COLOR]

[quote name='Jake of Bodom']This is irrelevant, but Ilium: nice avatar! Warhammer rocks.[/quote] [COLOR=DarkRed] Thanks. It took me forever to find a picture that would fit... This site's Avatar size is smaller than what most of my pre-prepared Avis, but I think that one's cool aswell :cool: [/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Can I just pick myself and than fill my house with 7 mirrored surfaces? I'm a bit of a narcississt... :D That and I don't really know anyone else enough to pick them...[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Come to think about it, I might have been confusing Vimy with Passchendaele or Kitchener Wood... Well, it was an amazing little scrap nontheless![/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]I'm not a Christain, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, or even Hindu (Gasp!) In my humble opinion, Religion has served its purpose. Religion came into being as a means of either the rich (Or the not-so-rich, depending on the situtation) looking for a means to rise to power, or as a glue to bind tribes together (The Jews are a good example of this) Either way, it was mostly just a crock. Christianity especially was guilyt of stealing, yes, plagerising, it's stories from Mesopotamian cultures (See Noah's Ark) aswell as several other cultures. After the fall of the Roman Empire (Western) and the rise of the Byzantine Empire (Holy Roman Empire, which was entirly false. It was in no way holy, not even close to Roman, and it was certainly not an empire) Catholisism became dominate in Europe and that was when Religion outlived itself in the Wester world. Catholisism, especially before the reforms, was designed, yes I mean it was purposful, to keep the people dumb, and no one can deny this. I'm fiercly Athiest, but I have no problem with people believing what they want, even if I think their crazy. What would you think if I told you that The Great Whizzbang created the earth by blowing his nose in the Kerchief of the Universe? That's what I think about Christians (No offense, it's just my opinion on religion :D) [/COLOR]