Debate: Minor 'till 18

[Attimus331]

I'm in a government class at my school. Recently the teacher decided to get us involved in debates, so now i'm in one. I have to debate over the law that makes us adults at 18. I'm pro in this case. I believe 18 is a good age. It's very convenient. You just graduated out of highschool, about to go off to college, in most cases, and live on your own. I couldn't see any other age that would make more sense.

Anyways, i figured i'd see what you guys thought, to better prepare myself for the debate. If everybody starts agreeing one way or the other (which i doubt will happen) i'd appreciate it if someone played devil's advocate. Thanx.

[Bloodseeker]

Yeah, 18 is a pretty good age. My problem comes with the fact that not all of the restrictions are lifted until 21. So let me get this straight... us 18 year olds can get drafted, we can vote, and we can finally make full contributions to society, but we can't drink, smoke (not that I'd be interested in that), gamble, or go to most adult attractions for another three years. How is that fair? Why should we have to deal with an adult's problems without getting all of the adult privilages?

[Dan L]

I don't think anyone should really become an adult until they reach my age. That way, everyone younger than me has to remain a child for the rest of their lives :D

but no..

It's a very hard thing to judge. 18 is kind of a good age in that it is kind of a landmark. In the UK, it's the year when you finish college and go to uni (if you actually go to college- most people do I think)- but at the same time, looking back now, at the grand old age of 22, I can see just how immature I really was back then, and how much I've grown now. Also, knowing other people that sort of age helps me see it too :p.

But hey, if we're going to put the age up on those grounds, we won't be adults til we're 35 or something. There has to be a line whereby you've matured enough to be classed as an adult even though you've some way to go. And personally, I'd say I wasn't really a true adult until about 20, but then everyone's different. 18 seems a fairly good number.

[Lafleur]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Meh. I think that 18 is, for all non-biological reasons, a pretty good age. In my country all the restrictions are lifted at 18, not entirly true some things are lifted earlier, so it makes sense. Biologically, though, your body more or less keeps growing until your 21, in which case it stops growing and begins to die. Seems to me that's logically when you should become an adult. Meh.[/COLOR]

[Attimus331]

First off i'd like to just say, i'm going to argue on the pro side, regardless of how i actually feel, simply because that's what i gotta do for the debate in my class.

I think that having restrictions at 18 is a good idea. I mean, if there were absolutely no restrictions right when you turned 18 it'd be kinda crazy. It's like hitting a kid with a ton of bricks, it's all at once. You gotta go easy on the kid and ease him up to being an adult. If a kid that's been living with his parents all of his life all of a sudden had the oppurtunity to drink, smoke, and go to nudey bars right when he got away from his parents, why wouldn't he go crazy? Go on a drinking binge, get some lap dances, and smoke his life away. Eighteen isn't mature enough for most people to have those choices. I mean look at some of the people in your school, do you think they'd ignore the sin? Or would they go crazy with the drinking??

I don't think the draft should've been mentioned. The chances of that actually happening are so slim it seems irrelovent to me. And if there was a draft, i'd be a draft dodger, canada's a nice place. Hahaha.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Attimus331]First off i'd like to just say, i'm going to argue on the pro side, regardless of how i actually feel, simply because that's what i gotta do for the debate in my class.

I think that having restrictions at 18 is a good idea. I mean, if there were absolutely no restrictions right when you turned 18 it'd be kinda crazy. It's like hitting a kid with a ton of bricks, it's all at once. You gotta go easy on the kid and ease him up to being an adult. If a kid that's been living with his parents all of his life all of a sudden had the oppurtunity to drink, smoke, and go to nudey bars right when he got away from his parents, why wouldn't he go crazy? Go on a drinking binge, get some lap dances, and smoke his life away. Eighteen isn't mature enough for most people to have those choices. I mean look at some of the people in your school, do you think they'd ignore the sin? Or would they go crazy with the drinking??

I don't think the draft should've been mentioned. The chances of that actually happening are so slim it seems irrelovent to me. And if there was a draft, i'd be a draft dodger, canada's a nice place. Hahaha.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Works for the majority of the world. Heh, in fact it seems to be the opposite. Ever notice that in countries where the restrictions lift at 21, there seem to be a hell of a lot more violent acts and crime? Besides, drinking binges and lap dances aren't that bad; you do them a few times, get bored with them and move on early. Seems to work.

Oh, and about the draft not happening, that's what they said in the 70's. Right now, when the US is only meeting 20% of it's recruitment qouta, the draft is very likely to be instated. Hope ya like hockey.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

I agree with the general consensus, while you're not as wise at eighteen as you may been at say eighty, you have to start somewhere. At eighteen, aside from applying for an old age pension, I have the full run of privileges that all Irish adults enjoy and several such as tax that many if not all adults do not enjoy. I can vote in any and all elections, which I fully intend to do next year in order to tell the current Fianna Fáil government where to go for their constant blunders and tax-wasting policies.

Back on subject though, perhaps twenty-one would be a better age to grant people the rights of an adult at, but given the current general maturity of young adults, you really don't do or think a whole lot differently at twenty-one than you did at eighteen and as such there's really no justification in changing the law. Some thirty year olds have the maturity of thirteen year olds and some sixteen year olds have the maturity of people twice their age. But as I said at the beginning you have to start somewhere, and to me eighteen seems to be the best place.[/SIZE]

[Kuroshin13]

[QUOTE]I think that having restrictions at 18 is a good idea. I mean, if there were absolutely no restrictions right when you turned 18 it'd be kinda crazy. It's like hitting a kid with a ton of bricks, it's all at once. You gotta go easy on the kid and ease him up to being an adult. If a kid that's been living with his parents all of his life all of a sudden had the oppurtunity to drink, smoke, and go to nudey bars right when he got away from his parents, why wouldn't he go crazy? Go on a drinking binge, get some lap dances, and smoke his life away. Eighteen isn't mature enough for most people to have those choices. I mean look at some of the people in your school, do you think they'd ignore the sin? Or would they go crazy with the drinking??[/QUOTE]

You've pretty much stated most of my argument right there. Although its true that we have to deal with all of the problems before the privleges, you could argue that its a state of "earning it". I live in the U.S, and from what MY expirience has been, we (not necessarily I in most cases) already DO drink, smoke, sneak into clubs, bars, etc. before the 'official age' which makes the 21 law kinda pointless on one respect. But anyway, they sort of HAVE to let us be full-fledged adults at 18, because that is when we're out of Highschool, going off to colledge, "leaving the nest" so to speak. We're heading out into the 'real world' and there's nothing they can do about it.

[Pumpkin]

[quote name='Bloodseeker']Yeah, 18 is a pretty good age. My problem comes with the fact that not all of the restrictions are lifted until 21. So let me get this straight... us 18 year olds can get drafted, we can vote, and we can finally make full contributions to society, but we can't drink, smoke (not that I'd be interested in that), gamble, or go to most adult attractions for another three years. How is that fair? Why should we have to deal with an adult's problems without getting all of the adult privilages?[/quote][SIZE=1]Look at it this way, do you really think majority of kids that come out of highschool are going to be responsible with drinking, smoking, etc? Isn't it bad enough already that young kids are already drinking and driving? Now picture if it were legal. I just turned 18 this year and I find nothing wrong with the privileges that I have because in a lot of countries it might be different. I can finally go out clubbing and do what I want as an adult. This already is a big responsibility, and I think the reason they switch drinking to age 21, is your finally a mature and responsible adult. I think people think too much about what they [i]can't[/i] do instead of what they [i]can[/i] do. Besides, if it means so much to you, it's worth waiting for right? I definately have to say that I agree with the law of drinking at age 21. [/SIZE]

[Attimus331]

I would also like to add that this debate is to discuss the law in the US, not anywhere else. Sorry, not trying to offend anyone.

Haha, that draft bs by Ilium makes me chuckle. Bush would never get the go ahead for the draft. It's called popular sovereignty, bud. The draft is way too unpolpular for it to ever come back...except for maybe in the most extreme case, at the end of WWIII when we're about to lose everything.

Oh....right....drinking binges aren't bad at all.....and neither are the drunk drivers, right? Sure, those things aren't going to be avoided, i'm not trying to say that. I'm simply saying that a, straight out of mom and dad's house, 18 year old is less responsible than a 21 year old that has had a little more experience.

The 21 law isn't pointless in any respect. You think if there wasn't a law the amount of teenagers that drink won't go up? That all teenagers that want to drink do drink? That's not so. The law does stop kids from drinking. By the way, if you're a teenager that does drink illegally, you ARE a kid. How stupid do you have to be? Sure, i've got a free education! But i'd rather go drinking with my friends! And risk it all! >_>

Heehee, i think i get a little too emotional when i debate, sorry if i offended anybody.

[Annie]

[size=1]18 is the legal age of an "adult", however, I don't think anyone's an adult until they can take care of themselves and accept the responsibilities of adulthood. Some people at the age of 30 something still can't take care of themselves, and I'm not meaning by a genetic disorder, or some other hendurance that they are not in control of. I am meaning people who are fully capable of taking care of themselves, but choose to toss the responsibility baton to other people.

I don't feel there is a specific age for being an adult, but the law slaps it on 18 because it is the age where you are sent out into the world to become an adult.[/size]

[Kuroshin13]

[QUOTE]The 21 law isn't pointless in any respect. You think if there wasn't a law the amount of teenagers that drink won't go up? That all teenagers that want to drink do drink? That's not so. The law does stop kids from drinking. By the way, if you're a teenager that does drink illegally, you ARE a kid. How stupid do you have to be? Sure, i've got a free education! But i'd rather go drinking with my friends! And risk it all! >_>[/QUOTE]

Oh yea, the official numbers go up, I'm not denying that. But that also says, that even if you COULD drink, not everyone does, right? (you also have parents for that ^.^) Oh, and if the technical adult age would be 18, you can't always in every respect all them a kid. By the way, I wasn't necessarily talking on a mass scale basis there.

That also doesn't mean that all of us teenagers that do drink illegally just go with a buch of friends to go get stoned at 10 a clock at night. That my friend, would be pointless -.-* Along with your regulars who don't give a rats *ss and go get stoned or something, there ARE and would be responible underage drinkers, just like you have very irrisponsible adults who love nothing better but to go drink with of buddies.

The facts are, no matter which age you choose and which restrictions you apply, you are going to get both sides of the fence. And there is no certain, 100% proof way to dertimine the 'lesser of two evils'.

hm...Maybe we need some talk about voting rights...like weather people are more suited to make an important decision about the government at 18 or 21. I'm almost certain that will come up. :animeswea I say that you are more apt to make a good decision at 18, because U.S History and Government class is still 'fresher in your minds' to 'learn from past mistakes.' :animesigh I still can't figure out how Washington ever put up with all of the cr** going on...

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Attimus331]I would also like to add that this debate is to discuss the law in the US, not anywhere else. Sorry, not trying to offend anyone.

Haha, that draft bs by Ilium makes me chuckle. Bush would never get the go ahead for the draft. It's called popular sovereignty, bud. The draft is way too unpolpular for it to ever come back...except for maybe in the most extreme case, at the end of WWIII when we're about to lose everything.

Oh....right....drinking binges aren't bad at all.....and neither are the drunk drivers, right? Sure, those things aren't going to be avoided, i'm not trying to say that. I'm simply saying that a, straight out of mom and dad's house, 18 year old is less responsible than a 21 year old that has had a little more experience.

The 21 law isn't pointless in any respect. You think if there wasn't a law the amount of teenagers that drink won't go up? That all teenagers that want to drink do drink? That's not so. The law does stop kids from drinking. By the way, if you're a teenager that does drink illegally, you ARE a kid. How stupid do you have to be? Sure, i've got a free education! But i'd rather go drinking with my friends! And risk it all! >_>

Heehee, i think i get a little too emotional when i debate, sorry if i offended anybody.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

I don't think that drinking binges in themselves are good things. But trust me on this, once you've gotten so drunk you think that if you let go of the bedposts your going to go flying off, you'll think twice before you do it again. Best to get it out of the way early, before it costs you a job or somthing else drastic.

Meh. There's no 21 law in Canada and the drunkdriver percentage is considerably lower. As is drunken violence. As is pretty much everything bad to do with drinking.

Lastly, CHILL, EH? Having a little fun now and again doesn't mean you need to throw away your education. Geez.

BTW, that's more or less exactly what they said before the US got itself into the last disaster that shall remain unnamed.[/COLOR]

[Attimus331]

[QUOTE=Kuroshin13]Oh yea, the official numbers go up, I'm not denying that. But that also says, that even if you COULD drink, not everyone does, right? (you also have parents for that ^.^) Oh, and if the technical adult age would be 18, you can't always in every respect all them a kid. By the way, I wasn't necessarily talking on a mass scale basis there.

That also doesn't mean that all of us teenagers that do drink illegally just go with a buch of friends to go get stoned at 10 a clock at night. That my friend, would be pointless -.-* Along with your regulars who don't give a rats *ss and go get stoned or something, there ARE and would be responible underage drinkers, just like you have very irrisponsible adults who love nothing better but to go drink with of buddies.

The facts are, no matter which age you choose and which restrictions you apply, you are going to get both sides of the fence. And there is no certain, 100% proof way to dertimine the 'lesser of two evils'.

hm...Maybe we need some talk about voting rights...like weather people are more suited to make an important decision about the government at 18 or 21. I'm almost certain that will come up. :animeswea I say that you are more apt to make a good decision at 18, because U.S History and Government class is still 'fresher in your minds' to 'learn from past mistakes.' :animesigh I still can't figure out how Washington ever put up with all of the cr** going on...[/QUOTE]

Uhmm...i'll be honest with you, i'm not entirely sure what you just said. You're grammar is pretty horrendous...maybe you should go back and edit it.

I wasn't calling them a kid in a technical aspect...i was saying in my opinion they're a kid because of the pathetically stupid choice that they made.

And you can't point out that single group that drinks responsibly, you've got to look at the majority. The majority of teenagers that drink irresponsibly do irresponsible things.

And that's all i can really say considering i really don't know what else you said...

To Ilium. I didn't say it was throwing away your education, i said it was risking it. Try reading what i wrote next time. Also i don't want to talk about Canada, we're talking about America....i felt like i've said this already... And dude, the whole 21 point is to make better decisions, not to get drinking "out of the way".

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Attimus331]Uhmm...i'll be honest with you, i'm not entirely sure what you just said. You're grammar is pretty horrendous...maybe you should go back and edit it.

I wasn't calling them a kid in a technical aspect...i was saying in my opinion they're a kid because of the pathetically stupid choice that they made.

And you can't point out that single group that drinks responsibly, you've got to look at the majority. The majority of teenagers that drink irresponsibly do irresponsible things.

And that's all i can really say considering i really don't know what else you said...[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Made sense to me. Don't call people on their grammar if you can't be bothered to capitalize your I's. What's not to understand? [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Attimus331]Uhmm...i'll be honest with you, i'm not entirely sure what you just said. You're grammar is pretty horrendous...maybe you should go back and edit it.

I wasn't calling them a kid in a technical aspect...i was saying in my opinion they're a kid because of the pathetically stupid choice that they made.

And you can't point out that single group that drinks responsibly, you've got to look at the majority. The majority of teenagers that drink irresponsibly do irresponsible things.

And that's all i can really say considering i really don't know what else you said...

To Ilium. I didn't say it was throwing away your education, i said it was risking it. Try reading what i wrote next time. Also i don't want to talk about Canada, we're talking about America....i felt like i've said this already... And dude, the whole 21 point is to make better decisions, not to get drinking "out of the way".[/QUOTE]

I'm using Canada as a comparison. Canada uses the 18 system and it gets along fine. Better, in fact, in the area in question.
[COLOR=DarkRed]
I apologise. Your grammar was so hurendous that I could not understand the point the first time. Now, after re-reading it, I fail to see the point even further. Better decisions? Such as? Be it 18 or 21, your still going to make brash dicisions, your still going to act virtually the same way. On paper, it doesn't make a significant difference. Besides, it's a well-documented phenomenon that when things are legal they suddenly become less cool. When you take away all the shady, underground, rebelious stuff, they lose a lot of custumers. [/COLOR]

[Attimus331]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]
Made sense to me. Don't call people on their grammar if you can't be bothered to capitalize your I's. What's not to understand? [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Hahahaha, calling me out on my i's are ya?? Ahahahaha. Dude, if you can't see the problems with that post then you must be on the same level as him/her. Or you didn't read it like you didn't read mine.

Man...i'm a jerk, aren't i? Sorry. Really not trying to make people angry...

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Attimus331]Hahahaha, calling me out on my i's are ya?? Ahahahaha. Dude, if you can't see the problems with that post then you must be on the same level as him/her. Or you didn't read it like you didn't read mine.

Man...i'm a jerk, aren't i? Sorry. Really not trying to make people angry...[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Dunnu mate, made perfect sense to me. I live in Quebec where French-Canadians who try to speak English tend to speak like that; with problematic grammar and syntax etc etc. Translation comes naturally to me. [/COLOR]

[Attimus331]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]
Dunnu mate, made perfect sense to me. I live in Quebec where French-Canadians who try to speak English tend to speak like that; with problematic grammar and syntax etc etc. Translation comes naturally to me. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

That might be it. I live with a korean mother though, so i deal with the same stuff, but probably not on as large of a scale. Although now we're getting off subject, aren't we?

[Lafleur]

[quote name='Attimus331']That might be it. I live with a korean mother though, so i deal with the same stuff, but probably not on as large of a scale. Although now we're getting off subject, aren't we?[/quote]

Yes we are. Let us fan the flames of arguementive hate!
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Gona respond to the "I apologise. Your grammar was so hurendous that I could not understand the point the first time. Now, after re-reading it, I fail to see the point even further. Better decisions? Such as? Be it 18 or 21, your still going to make brash dicisions, your still going to act virtually the same way. On paper, it doesn't make a significant difference. Besides, it's a well-documented phenomenon that when things are legal they suddenly become less cool. When you take away all the shady, underground, rebelious stuff, they lose a lot of custumers." or shall I asume the point conceeded?[/COLOR]

[Attimus331]

[QUOTE=Ilium]Yes we are. Let us fan the flames of arguementive hate!
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Gona respond to the "I apologise. Your grammar was so hurendous that I could not understand the point the first time. Now, after re-reading it, I fail to see the point even further. Better decisions? Such as? Be it 18 or 21, your still going to make brash dicisions, your still going to act virtually the same way. On paper, it doesn't make a significant difference. Besides, it's a well-documented phenomenon that when things are legal they suddenly become less cool. When you take away all the shady, underground, rebelious stuff, they lose a lot of custumers." or shall I asume the point conceeded?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I disagree. If something like pot were made legal it would become way way more popular. There is absolutely no doubt. Hell, i might even buy some myself, and i wouldn't even consider it before. And i know my government teacher would too, haha, he told us. It may lose it's coolness, but it sure as hell won't lose its customers, they're addicted on the drug, not the risk of getting caught.

[Kuroshin13]

Well pardon me for never being taught proper grammer. Not all of it is bad, I use some wierd...what did the teacher call it...'eh, i forget. Plus you add in normal typos and some bad spelling. ABOVE that, it's not necessarilly completely the grammer, but the way I think. (I type the thoughts as they come.)

Are we still arguing the point of pro and con here, because I really don't see that happening anymore.[I] I'm merely trying to help by throwing ideas out into the open. Anything could be said and argued upon.[/I] I'm agreeing that the loos of coolness is a valid point, and isn't that what counts? Who ever is judging (or the teacher or whatever), is going to look for a [I]convincing[/I] responce. Bringing up pot, is not it. (I'm not calling myself an expert or anything) That being completely illegal all around, and HIGHLY more addictive than alchohol (alcholics NOT included), its completely off topic of the "minor til 18" thing we started on.

Or, if i can make that clearer: "I disagree. If something like pot were made legal it would become way way more popular. There is absolutely no doubt. " would in short be off topic due to its illegaltivity all around the board. There is no question about age and maturity on that issue.

Like I said before, drinking is not the only thing to concentrate on in the debate.

[Harry]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]

I don't think that drinking binges in themselves are good things. But trust me on this, once you've gotten so drunk you think that if you let go of the bedposts your going to go flying off, you'll think twice before you do it again. Best to get it out of the way early, before it costs you a job or somthing else drastic.
.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
You are ignoring the stupid college youth here. I have a friend (girl) that drinks till she blacks out about 2-3 times a week. We have told her this is stupid but she keep on claiming we don't know her or something stupid like that. A lot of people are like her, and a lot of them think they enjoy it.

[Retribution]

[SIZE=1]One could argue that the reason people drink and smoke underage is because it's something they're told not to do. Just like if someone says "Whatever you do, DO NOT open up the refrigerator. I'm not kidding. You don't want to see what's in there," people will want to see what's so special inside, and will probably go to great lengths to open it. Heck, I know people who drink just to rebel against The Man or their parents or the government or whatever.

So if you lift the restrictions (Europe) and place them at a younger age, then the hype of getting drunk is gone, and no one will do it. Of course there's always the side of the coin that argues if you do this, people will go crazy.[/SIZE]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1]One could argue that the reason people drink and smoke underage is because it's something they're told not to do. Just like if someone says "Whatever you do, DO NOT open up the refrigerator. I'm not kidding. You don't want to see what's in there," people will want to see what's so special inside, and will probably go to great lengths to open it. Heck, I know people who drink just to rebel against The Man or their parents or the government or whatever.

So if you lift the restrictions (Europe) and place them at a younger age, then the hype of getting drunk is gone, and no one will do it. Of course there's always the side of the coin that argues if you do this, people will go crazy.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
I don't think that the other side of the coin has much to go on, though. Even if their arguement looks good on paper, the fact is that places with the restrictions lifted at 18 tend to have less drunkards and less violent people. Seems that it works better, leads to a more stable society. Do I know why? Nope. But all round it seems that places were the restrictions are lifted at 18 do tend to be more stable, sensble places.[/COLOR]

[Attimus331]

Kuroshin, i'm simply asking that you go back and reread what you wrote so that you can make the understanding of your post more coherent. Is that a bad thing to ask? I mean i serisouly did not understand what you said the last time! I'm not trying to be mean. I reread my post to correct typos and whatnot, you should too.

Sure there is a "cool factor" involved, but it's only for those couple of stupid teenagers that care about being "cool". If drinking were made legal at an eariler age then that age group would have a lot more drinkers. I'm sure of this. Sure, there might be less of a cool factor, but can you really imagine drinking not being consdered cool??? I mean look at all the money put into advertisements by the beer companies. Remember the Budweiser frogs? Or the twins campaign? If it were made legal in would only be slightly less cool.

Yes, i realize there is not nearly as much hype in Europe about drinking. It's a change in culture and the views of drinking by society. If America could somehow manage to adopt these views i wouldn't agree with the drinking restrictions, but that's not the case, and in all honesty i doubt it would be easy to accomplish...

The pot thing was a valid point, don't tell me it wasn't. I was replying to what Ilium said about the cool factor. I was giving an example. Pot would become more popular if made legal, regardless of the cool factor. It's even a better point than beer! Pot isn't addictive like alcohol is. Since you don't have to look at addiction in the situation of pot the cool factor apparantly doesn't have a very big influence, legality does.