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Desbreko

Gaming Super Smash Bros. Brawl

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[quote name='James][color=#606060']As far as online play with SSBB...I personally don't favor online for this title.[/color][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Neither do I, but more because of the intended audience. The SSB series is basically an upper-tier goof-off game. Sure, people will end up making tournament play out of it, but I don't think the game was designed to be as competitive as any of the games for xBox Live or for PS2 ? or even as competitive as Strikers Charged. I find it quite hard to do serious versus gaming while random silly crap keeps happening all over the place (take the NintenDogs item, for instance, or the pitfall).

Also, I [I]will[/I] agree with [COLOR="DarkRed"]Blue[/COLOR] on one item: since online is available, a friends option should have been added. I sincerely doubt nine- and ten-year old kids will be jumping online looking for a hardcore match (although what do [I]I[/I] know? :p), and losing a match in a minute-and-a-half flat is probably not what they're ready for. A friends list would allow not only for consistent, fun gaming, but also for the ability to keep some control over the atmosphere of the game.

That said, I am looking forward to Meta Knight and Pit, and especially Ike. ([I]Fire Emblem[/I] ftw. Always.)[/FONT]

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[color=#606060]I think SSB is probably just as strategic and suitable for competitive play as any other fighter, but having said that, I think latency could be the biggest issue for any online component.

This is true for virtually any fighter (one reason why there are so few that have extensive online modes), but it's particularly true for a fast-paced game like SSB.[/color]

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[color=#4B0082]There [i]is[/i] a friends list feature that uses friend codes, just like every other Nintendo wifi game out there. And I'm sure it will be plenty easy to find other players both here and at other online communities to exchange codes with.

When it comes to competitive play, it's all about item switch and which stages you allow. With default settings Smash Bros. has always been more of a party game but if you use the right match rules it's perfectly suitable for tournament play. SSBM has a huge competitive following and I'm sure it will be the same for SSBB.

It's a given that any serious competitive matches wouldn't be held online, due to lag. But even so, I'm glad we're getting online play for the game. I just want to own Shinmaru and have a good time even if it's not perfect. Given that probably less than 1% of my time with SSBM was spent playing with other people, I'm happy that I'll get to fight something other than CPU opponents at all.[/color]

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Guest The Blue Jihad
[quote name='Desbreko'][COLOR=#4b0082]There [I]is[/I] a friends list feature that uses friend codes, just like every other Nintendo wifi game out there. And I'm sure it will be plenty easy to find other players both here and at other online communities to exchange codes with.[/COLOR][/quote]


No, that is not a friends list feature. All that is is a list of people you already knew from somewhere before Brawl. That's a previous contacts list.

A friends list that's standard feature is something where...you can see your random opponent's name, and friend request them to play with them again in the future.

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[color=#606060]For all intents and purposes though, what Desbreko is describing is basically a friends list. Calling it a "previous contacts list" is an exercise in hair-splitting.

Having said that, I think Nintendo needs to change its approach to online gameplay as a matter of urgency - they need a unified system, or at least to kill off game-specific friend codes.

I wouldn't even mind console-specific friend codes (or having multiple users as with 360 and PS3). There are plenty of ways to provide protection to children without massively restricting the service.

One of the biggest inconsistencies is the fact that each game makes very different use of WiiConnect24. This will also be true for PS3 to some extent, but still, at least PS3 doesn't use friend codes, lol.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I'm most concerned about how a game with the speed of SSBB will actually run online. If Nintendo can get the thing running smoothly online, I will actually be pleasantly surprised.[/color]

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[color=#4B0082]What annoys me most is that they have parental controls for pretty much everything else the Wii does. Yet they make us use friend codes instead providing controls for online play. I don't get it.

How well SSBB runs online will mostly be up to the players' connections and how far apart they are, though. If everyone in a match has ping times under 50ms then it probably won't feel much different than a local match; if they're pushing 100ms then it's going to feel a bit off; 500ms and it'll probably be unplayable. Which means fighting Jeh from over here in California probably won't work so well. :animedepr[/color]

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Guest The Blue Jihad
Hair-splitting? Not when Nintendo's friend list is barely 10% of what the industry standard is...and that industry standard has a full decade of development and refinement for Nintendo to glean from.

And yet we're still using clumsy friend codes. We have no true methods of communication. We have zero discernible ability to expand our friend roster without having to exchange codes over third-party messageboards. Our random online matches will be completely devoid of any identifiable contact information. The list goes on and on.

Nintendo's friend list is a friend list only by name.

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[color=#606060]Well, it's still hair-splitting really. A friends list is a friends list, at the end of the day (putting aside broader internet strategy). Friends lists can have dfiferent features though - and some are more fully featured than others.

Des, yeah, I agree with you. I just hope whatever matchmaking system SSBB uses is intelligent enough to create the fastest possible connections. I'm sure it will be fine; latency would have to be the most pressing issue for Nintendo here.[/color]

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Guest The Blue Jihad
It's not "still hair-splitting" at all. Like I said, it's a friends list only by name. [I]The service doesn't even let you communicate efficiently[/I], for Chrissakes.

And this thing doesn't have different features. It has [B][I]no features[/I][/B]. I mean, with no effective means of communication, friend networking, matchmaking, or friends roster building, how does Nintendo expect to foster any kind of online community? For Brawl, if such a community appears, I guarantee that community is going to come from groups and networks that existed [I]long[/I] before the Wii.

This is a friends list only by name. And even then, it's a dubious title at best.

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[color=#606060]There's no point arguing about it, lol. A friends list - its simplest and clearest definition - is simply a list of stored contacts. The Wii console and various Wii games let you keep and maintain a contacts list. Simple, really.

The only point you're trying to make is that it doesn't let you communicate in a certain way and you can't add people you've recently played against. Yeah, we get that. But that doesn't make it "not a friends list" - that just makes it a crappy friends list, lol.

As for the other stuff...I assume there will be some sort of matchmaking involved - this is how most online Nintendo games work presently. You either go through a matchmaker or you add people whom you already know.

So yeah, I think that all pretty much makes sense. I don't think anyone here would argue that it's a great online system, because it sure isn't. I'm an Xbox Live user myself and I haven't ever really found anything I like as much (in terms of a general cross-game type system).

Having said all of the above, I'm not sure how interested I even am in Brawl, personally. I've never minded SSB but I was never a massive fan of the franchise. Since I didn't get SSBM though, I might look at picking up SSBB.[/color]

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Guest The Blue Jihad
[quote name='James'][COLOR=#606060]A friends list - its simplest and clearest definition - is simply a list of stored contacts.[/COLOR][/quote]

...yeah...Nintendo's giving you a [U][I][B]CONTACT LIST[/B][/I][/U]. NOT a friends list.

See, friends lists foster some sort of sense of [I]online community[/I]. A friends list is what you develop over [I]online play[/I]. A friends list is how you [I]network within[/I] gaming circles. A friends list is what enables you to [I]establish new connections with ease[/I]. A friends list is what you use to [I]keep in touch[/I] with a particularly good or fun opponent you met in a PUG. A friends list helps you to [I]forge new friendships[/I] through inside technology.

And when a "Friends list" does not enable you to do any of that? It is no way in hell a friends list.

When the only way for you to add a contact is with two 16-digit numerical strings that you exchange over email or a messageboard NOT run by Nintendo? That's not a friends list.

When the only way you're able to communicate with someone is either through four minuscule D-pad "taunts" or through the console's limited "email" service? That's not a friends list.

That's a contact list...with limited means of actually contacting anyone.

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[COLOR="Olive"]While this game looked interesting, even if I did have a Wii I wouldn't buy it. obvioulsy Blue Jihad pointed out hte flaws, and out of honeslty, this game is limited. I don't think it would keep me loaded for hours. A game that would is like Star Ocean: Till the End of Time, filled with enough bonus content that keeps you playing for hours. And enough aciton. Brawling with Nintendo characters? If I wanted to do that, I'd go to a video game dress-up place and beat up some weirdo dressed as Pikachu.[/COLOR]

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[quote name='Revolver'][COLOR="Olive"]While this game looked interesting, even if I did have a Wii I wouldn't buy it. obvioulsy Blue Jihad pointed out hte flaws, and out of honeslty, this game is limited. I don't think it would keep me loaded for hours. A game that would is like Star Ocean: Till the End of Time, filled with enough bonus content that keeps you playing for hours. And enough aciton. Brawling with Nintendo characters? If I wanted to do that, I'd go to a video game dress-up place and beat up some weirdo dressed as Pikachu.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[FONT="Tahoma"][COLOR="DimGray"]...lmao. While Blue Jihad is pointing out a flaw in Brawl I'm sure he still likes the Smash Bros. franchise. If not Melee at least the original.

I don't even know where you get off saying Star Ocean has more content than any smash bros game. I mean Melee came out in 2001 and I still love to pick it up and play now and then. I believe my friend has over 500 hours of play time on his game which, considering how many tournaments and battles we've had, doesn't surprise me. I'm sure 500 hours of play is average for a game like Smash bros.

You've obviously never played the game.[/COLOR][/FONT]

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[color=#4B0082]I've got around 500 hours on my SSBM file as well and I still pick up the game every couple weeks to play a few rounds. Both SSB and SSBM have incredible longevity, provided you like them in the first place. And I bet I'll still be playing SSBB off and on right up until the next game in the series is released, too.

In other news, I hope [url=http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/lucas.html][u]Lucas[/u][/url] isn't overly similar to Ness. The slooow floaty jumping and horrible Up+B kills him and it would be a shame for Lucus to suffer the same fate.[/color]

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[quote]...yeah...Nintendo's giving you a CONTACT LIST. NOT a friends list.[/quote]

[color=#606060]A contact list that - wait for it - you [b]put friends on[/b]! lol

The rest of your post reads like some kind of odd PR-speak press release. You still make me laugh, Alex, haha. Let's get back on topic now.

Anyhoo, I have to admit that I haven't been following SSBB's progress much at all (other than the really big announcements).

One thing I liked about previous games was the extensive adventure mode. Any word on whether this will be expanded for SSBB?

And, while I'm here, a question to all Smash Bros. players out there: what control method will you use on Wii? And do you think this will have any impact on you in terms of tournaments and such?

I think it'll be interesting to see how people adapt to the many different control offerings on SSBB.[/color]

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[color=#4B0082]There's been a [url=http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/modea/index.html][u]few posts[/u][/url] on Smash Bros. Dojo about the new adventure mode. Apparently it's going to be a fully fledged side-scroller with a bit of a story behind it. It looks interesting and I'm wondering if it'll change depending on which character you choose to play as, or maybe if you'll use different characters as you go.

As for which control style I'll use, I plan on trying them all out enough to play competently with them, though I'll probably use the GCN controller primarily. Because of SSBM the GCN style has become so ingrained that it will be really hard to get as good with another style. Unless another one offers a clear advantage I can't see myself bothering to completely relearn everything.[/color]

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Guest The Blue Jihad
[quote name='8bit'][FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=DimGray]While Blue Jihad is pointing out a flaw in Brawl I'm sure he still likes the Smash Bros. franchise. If not Melee at least the original.[/COLOR][/FONT][/quote]

Oh I definitely love the series. I played the hell out of SSB and Melee. On my own profile in Melee, I've logged about 8500 hours of gameplay. It's ****ing nuts.

The difference here is that I'm not a moron that's talking about "hair-splitting" when there are glaring fundamental issues with Nintendo's choices regarding what they consider their online service to be. But, hey, what do I know. I'm not the infallible, almighty one. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Oh, and the adventure mode in previous games was anything but "extensive." lol. It downright sucked.

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[color=#4B0082]No one's saying Nintendo's online service doesn't suck compared to other services out there, you know. We're perfectly aware of its flaws so you don't need to repeat them over and over. No one's arguing that point.

But saying a list of friends isn't a friends list is just absurd when that's what it is by definition. I could type up a list of my friends in Notepad and save it as a text file and it would still be correct to call it a friends list. If you seriously can't understand that a friends list can exist separately from communication features, I don't think you get to call other people morons. :rolleyes:[/color]

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Guest The Blue Jihad
[quote name='Desbreko'][COLOR=#4b0082]But saying a list of friends isn't a friends list is just absurd when that's what it is by definition. I could type up a list of my friends in Notepad and save it as a text file and it would still be correct to call it a friends list. If you seriously can't understand that a friends list can exist separately from communication features, I don't think you get to call other people morons. :rolleyes:[/COLOR][/quote]

Wait, so you can use Notepad as a networking tool for an online gaming service? Sign me up!

Man, when it comes to online gaming, if your "friends list" doesn't even let you communicate, it isn't a friends list. Because the human interaction element is what's absolutely critical in an online service. It defines the online experience. Just seeing your opponent get blown up does nothing. You might as well just be fighting the computer at that point, because you get no reactions whatsoever.

But [B][I]hearing them[/I][/B] get blown up, on the other hand? Hearing their screams, giggles, curses, etc? That is what forms bonds. That's what networks people together. Combat banter, taunts, trash-talking, jokes, and so on. HOLY **** moments mean nothing when you can't hear that "Holy **** did you just see that" reaction. Examples:

Guild Wars. Missions were fun, right? Absolutely they were. But how much more enjoyable and satisfying were they when we hopped on TeamSpeak or Ventrilo? Hell, even when we managed to find a PUG (in PvE or the old HoH) that used TS or Vent, it was infinitely better, because there was an almost instant camaraderie, because we could hear each other. And talk to each other.

WoW's Leroy Jenkins. The voice communication was what made that clip so hilarious.

In CounterStrike, playing silent was terrible, because you never felt like you were part of a team...or like you were playing with other humans in the first place.

And on top of all of that, all of those games have easy-as-sin friends networking features, and either built-in voice-com services or the game is versatile enough so you can use third-party voice software.

Those are friends lists. Because you can actually make friends.

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[color=#4B0082]Notepad would be a workable alternative to, say, Guild Wars' friends list if the in-game one didn't exist, yes. It wouldn't be as convenient but you'd still be able to keep track of friends that you make. Because here's the thing: Friends lists don't let you communicate with other players, chat features—either through text or voice—let you communicate with other players. The two complement each other but are not the same thing.

That's as clear as I can make it, and this is getting off topic, so that's the last I have to say about friends lists in here.[/color]

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Guest The Blue Jihad
Here's the catch. You can't make friends if you can't communicate efficiently. You can't make friends if you don't know who you're playing against. You can't make friends if you can't even contact the other players in a meaningful, substantial way. When there's solid communication, you make friends. Without effective avenues of communication, however, that list is as dead as Notepad. It isn't a friends list at all, because you aren't making friends, due to that lack of communication.

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[quote name='The Blue Jihad']Here's the catch. You can't make friends if you can't communicate efficiently. You can't make friends if you don't know who you're playing against. You can't make friends if you can't even contact the other players in a meaningful, substantial way. When there's solid communication, you make friends. Without effective avenues of communication, however, that list is as dead as Notepad. It isn't a friends list at all, because you aren't making friends, due to that lack of communication.[/QUOTE]

[U]I[/U] use notepad...

Yeah, there is a bit of a problem with this, but I always thought of Melee as a game you want to play with people you know already, just an "It's Saturday night! Let's go play Melee!" Type of thing. Mind, I've never been hardcore at Smash, I always get my butt handed to me (one of 3 games my friends can beat me at.)

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[quote name='Desbreko][COLOR=#4B0082']With default settings Smash Bros. has always been more of a party game but if you use the right match rules it's perfectly suitable for tournament play.[/COLOR][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Well, yeah. I know this.

[quote name='Aceburner']but I always thought of Melee as ... an "It's Saturday night! Let's go play Melee!" Type of thing.[/quote]
This was my point earlier. Yes, SSB can be set up for tournaments. Naturally, if you pull the right set of options with the right group of people, you could even turn Animal Crossing into a tournament. That's not the thing. The [I]atmosphere[/I] of game is what's different. I'm going to be a lot more serious playing Halo, Unreal Tournament, Need For Speed, and stuff like that than I am about SSB, simply because of, as I said earlier, random stupid stuff. It's the same reason I still play Kirby: Air Ride every now and again?which could [I]also[/I] be tournament-compatible...with the right set of options. But I'm much more liable to collapse into an uncontrollable giggle-fit with Kirby or SSB because the type of fun I'm having is different.

However...
[quote name='Desbreko][COLOR=#4B0082']That's as clear as I can make it, and this is getting off topic, so that's the last I have to say about friends lists in here.[/COLOR][/quote]
Agreed. We all get that the online feature is less-than-desirable. We know. Time to leave it bloody alone.


SO anyway, one of my hallmates is [ironically] holding an open tourney as soon as he gets his disk. It'll be great; no one will have clue #1 what's going on, and to the best improviser goes the spoils. Yee-haw![/FONT]

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[color=#4B0082]The setting, players, and options really determine the atmosphere of the game, though. If you look up some videos of tournament SSBM matches on YouTube you'll see people pulling off crazy combos you probably never thought possible, without items and on stages without hazards. When people take Smash Bros. seriously there's nothing random about it.

Regarding the open tournament, I've thought about doing something similar when I get SSBB and I also thought of doing it when I first got SSBM. The thing that stopped me, though, was that Link, Mario, and others always have similar move sets as in the previous games. So people tend to stick with the old characters they know instead of jumping in with a completely new character and [i]really[/i] not having any clue what they're doing. For example, you can bet I'd use Link in such a tourney and spin attack my way to victory.

On the other hand, I would like to get friends together as soon as I buy SSBB and just do some free-for-alls. When you're having four way brawls and it doesn't matter whether you win or lose you're free to experiment. And then when you figure out something cool you get to mercilessly own your friends with it while they scramble to find a counter. It's hard to beat the satisfaction you get from that.[/color]

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[quote name='Desbreko'][color=#4B0082]The setting, players, and options really determine the atmosphere of the game, though. If you look up some videos of tournament SSBM matches on YouTube you'll see people pulling off crazy combos you probably never thought possible, without items and on stages without hazards. When people take Smash Bros. seriously there's nothing random about it.[/color][/QUOTE]
To tell the truth, I always find that kind of tounnament play to be depressing. It's like a bad dub of a good anime, bland and stripped down. Half the fun in Melee was the complete off-the-wall randomness that came from behind and bit you in the tucchas when you least expected it. I mean, If I ever end up playing Melee with a guy who insists Final Destination with one stock, no items and Fox only, I'm going to decide to stop playing pronto. Makes me wanna tell 'em to play Street Fighter which, don't get me wrong, is fantastic, but is NOT SSB.

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