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[quote name='AzureWolf'][COLOR=maroon]At the same time, people should realize that things that are not your choice do not validate it. The world is unfair: people are born into poverty. Should we just let that be allowed because it's not a choice? Is that ok?

Just because something is out of your control doesn't give it an inherent value of right or wrong.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]Discrimination on the basis of factors an individual has no control over is almost always unfair. Should the government not allow blacks to marry whites? Likewise, should the government not allow men to marry other men, or women to marry other women?[/font]
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[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]Discrimination on the basis of factors an individual has no control over is almost always unfair. Should the government not allow blacks to marry whites? Likewise, should the government not allow men to marry other men, or women to marry other women?[/font][/QUOTE][COLOR=maroon]I wasn't talking about fairness/communism. I was talking about right or wrong. They are not the same.

If you're implying it's unfair that some people get to be gay and others get to be straight, then that's an interesting proposition that implies one is better than the other.[/COLOR]
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[quote name='AzureWolf'][COLOR=maroon]If you're implying it's unfair that some people get to be gay and others get to be straight, then that's an interesting proposition that implies one is better than the other.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]I don't think Retribution is implying that it's unfair that some are gay and some are straight, but rather that it's unfair that they aren't [B]treated[/B] equal. In my opinion, neither is better than the other. It's more of a personal preferance thing, like which tiers to put on your car, Goodwill or Firestar. Neither is better, don't make an argument that's not there.[/FONT]
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[quote name='AzureWolf'][COLOR=maroon]I wasn't talking about fairness/communism. I was talking about right or wrong. They are not the same.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]Sojiro pretty much nailed it.

I mean essentially your position could be applied to interracial marriage. If you see it as something negative, then it's the exact same argument that's used against gay marriage. "People should realize that things that are not your choice do not validate it," meaning interracial attraction (hypothetically this could be something you have no influence upon) is not valid.

Race and sexual orientation are arbitrary measures for segregation and discrimination, and as such really shouldn't be factored into deciding who you may or may not marry.[/font]
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[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]
I mean essentially your position could be applied to interracial marriage.[/font][/quote]
Or to being a pedophile or a psychopath, I guess. I don't know quite where Azure stands, but I think his point is worth considering--why is "It's not a choice!" still used as the first line of defense against homophobia? In some ways it sets a very dangerous precedent, because it implies that while we have the essential right to be what we are (through genes or environment or whatever), we don't have the right to be what we choose to be.

What if homosexuality were a choice? So what? It still wouldn't hurt anyone, and homosexuals would still deserve protection from discrimination, just like anyone else. Whether you're choosing who to marry, worship, love or hate, deliberate choices are every bit as valid as the intrinsic qualities you're born with.

~Dagger~
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[quote name='Dagger']Or to being a pedophile or a psychopath, I guess.[/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]And of course gay marriage is as dangerous as these two examples. :p

[QUOTE]...why is "It's not a choice!" still used as the first line of defense against homophobia? In some ways it sets a very dangerous precedent, because it implies that while we have the essential right to be what we are (through genes or environment or whatever), we don't have the right to be what we choose to be.

What if homosexuality were a choice? So what? It still wouldn't hurt anyone, and homosexuals would still deserve protection from discrimination, just like anyone else. Whether you're choosing who to marry, worship, love or hate, deliberate choices are every bit as valid as the intrinsic qualities you're born with.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]
You have a good point, and I'll answer your question. People use it as a "first line of defense" because it carries more weight. It's a stronger defense, especially if you couple it with a historical precedent no one wants to be associated with (i.e. racial discrimination). Again to call upon the example, non-white people didn't choose to be non-white, and white superiority was based solely upon the idea that one race was greater than another.

I personally don't agree that it sets precedent that somehow says it's not alright to be what you choose to be. This logic simply lends a higher respect to things you have no say over, and in many ways I agree with it. I mean, we don't prosecute someone who is legitimately insane (suffering total breaks with reality) the same way we prosecute someone who is of sound mind.[/font]
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[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]Sojiro pretty much nailed it.

"People should realize that things that are not your choice do not validate it," meaning interracial attraction (hypothetically this could be something you have no influence upon) is not valid.

Race and sexual orientation are arbitrary measures for segregation and discrimination, and as such really shouldn't be factored into deciding who you may or may not marry.[/font][/QUOTE][COLOR=maroon]Here's what I'm seeing:
Akiko --> anyone who says it's choice, it's not.
AzureWolf --> no one did, and even if they did, what does it matter?
Retribution --> discrimination from no choice is unfair, you believe interracial marriage is wrong
AzureWolf --> what?

I think there's some slight confusion, considering your example about interracial attraction I quoted. I never said things that are not your choice are automatically invalid. I said there is no validation from lack of choice. No validation and invalid are different.

I'm saying things that one has no choice over justifies and proves nothing about said thing. Like, if I said "the egg needs a chicken to lay it" doesn't automatically mean I believe that the chicken came before the egg. See the difference?


And yeah, I haven't stated my stance on the matter, mostly because I have trouble articulating it to myself, let alone to other people. If it helps, it's an amalgamation of religious (including religions that are not my own) ideas, scientific thoughts and discoveries, and social competition on the subject that mesh together to create... chaos and lack of logic.
A small nutshell of said chaos: They are studying what influences the development of the sexually dimorphic nuclei of the hypothalamus [B](scientific)[/B]. So iif there was a way to change your sexuality (during development, meaning it probably would be the parents' call), do I think homosexuals should take it? No, because that'll be more frustration for me [B](social)[/B]. Should other straight male take it. Hell [B](religious)[/B] yeeeaaaah...[/COLOR]
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[quote name='AzureWolf'][COLOR=maroon]I think there's some slight confusion, considering your example about interracial attraction I quoted. I never said things that are not your choice are automatically invalid. I said there is no validation from lack of choice. No validation and invalid are different.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]Where's the difference. This seem's, to me, to be one of those, "I wasn't being mean, I just wasn't being nice" comments. It makes no sense.[/FONT]

[quote name='AzureWolf'][COLOR=maroon]A small nutshell of said chaos: They are studying what influences the development of the sexually dimorphic nuclei of the hypothalamus [B](scientific)[/B]. So iif there was a way to change your sexuality (during development, meaning it probably would be the parents' call), do I think homosexuals should take it? No, because that'll be more frustration for me [B](social)[/B]. Should other straight male take it. Hell [B](religious)[/B] yeeeaaaah...[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]That almost made sense...untill it didn't. Was that a, "if I were gay..." comment? Because that's how I took it. Personaly, my whole view on it is this: I'm not gay, but if I were, how would I feel? So what if it's a personal choice to be gay? It's a personal choice to decide what woman I want to marry, so it's a personal choice to decide if I even [b]want[/b] to marry a woman. If a woman can choose what man to marry, why can't a [i]man[/i] choose what man to marry. Equal treatment, baby!!![/FONT]
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[quote name='Sojiro47'][FONT="Book Antiqua"]Where's the difference. This seem's, to me, to be one of those, "I wasn't being mean, I just wasn't being nice" comments. It makes no sense.[/FONT][/QUOTE][COLOR=maroon]Ok, here's my best shot at making it clear. Consider the following hypothetical:

A guy says he just killed someone, but he wasn't wearing a baseball cap so that makes it ok. I say that doesn't make it ok to kill the person. In fact, that has no connection to killing the person whatsoever. Wearing a baseball cap has no influence or relevance to murder.

You interpret my rationale as a conclusion for some reason, and immediately think that because I said the baseball cap isn't connected to murder, that it MUST mean that killing a person requires a baseball cap! [B]INCORRECT[/B] There's no validation (or invalidation) from wearing a baseball cap or not.

See, now if he was doing it in self-defense that'd make it ok. Or maybe it's not ok because he did it out of spite. Whatever the reason, the baseball cap adds nothing to the argument.

Now, if that made sense, replace "baseball cap" with "choice," and "murder/killing" with "homosexuality." Whatever the origin of homosexuality, there's no validation from a lack of choice. You need to provide other arguments to be convincing.

If you still think there's no difference, then I don't know what you're smoking lol.[/COLOR]

[quote name='Sojiro47'][FONT="Book Antiqua"]That almost made sense...untill it didn't. Was that a, "if I were gay..." comment? Because that's how I took it. Personaly, my whole view on it is this: I'm not gay, but if I were, how would I feel? So what if it's a personal choice to be gay? It's a personal choice to decide what woman I want to marry, so it's a personal choice to decide if I even [b]want[/b] to marry a woman. If a woman can choose what man to marry, why can't a [i]man[/i] choose what man to marry. Equal treatment, baby!!![/FONT][/QUOTE][COLOR=maroon]Dooooooooode, no way... NO WAY... If you thought I was serious, you need a sense of humor.[/COLOR]
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[size=1]I'm a gay male and I've been in a relatively stable and healthy relationship with another man for over two years. We currently live together in a nice apartment with our heterosexual and fat dog. Most of our conversations involve domestic things such as laundry, dishes, and paying the bills.

I can assure you that my relationship is the most harmless, monogomous and [i]boring[/i] thing you'll ever find. The idea of someone not approving of me and my quiet lifestyle just boggles my mind. Perhaps they'd rather I be drinking beer kegs, contracting STDs, or impregnating others like all of my hetero friends.

-Shy[/size]
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[quote name='Shy'][size=1]I can assure you that my relationship is the most harmless, monogomous and [i]boring[/i] thing you'll ever find. The idea of someone not approving of me and my quiet lifestyle just boggles my mind. Perhaps they'd rather I be drinking beer kegs, contracting STDs, or impregnating others like all of my hetero friends.
[/size][/QUOTE]
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]As long as it didn't include the word gay, you're probably right. For some reason, a loud portion of the straight community doesn't realize that only real difference between a serious straight relationship and a serious gay relationship is the gender choice. Sweat Goddess, straight activists are so stupid sometimes...[/FONT]
[quote name='AzureWolf'][COLOR=maroon]Dooooooooode, no way... NO WAY... If you thought I was serious, you need a sense of humor.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]Well, I had a sense of humor yesterday, but I was too depressed to pay attention to it. And yes, your hypothetical made sense, this time anyway...[/FONT]
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Well, for me, I have no problem with homosexuals. I'm not any different towards them than I am to a heterosexual, but I do believe that is a [B]sin[/B] (that you can be forgiven for). Like, I believe that they [I]choose[/I] to be homosexual, not genes. So for me, they gave into the temptation of liking the same gender, which would be a sin, according to the Bible. But that's just my opinion.
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[quote name='xPromise']Like, I believe that they [I]choose[/I] to be homosexual, not genes. So for me, they gave into the temptation of liking the same gender, which would be a sin, according to the Bible. But that's just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]Ah, but the Bible says that we are born sinfull, so it is possible for people to be born gay, no? I do believe that some may choose to be gay, but you sound like you think [i]all[/i] of them choose to be.

If people are born sinfull, is it not at least [b]possible[/b] for them to be born gay? Think about it.[/FONT]
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[COLOR="SlateGray"]People still talk about this?

Homosexuality has become a total non-issue for me. What the hell do I care? Some people like ham-on-rye, others like bacon and mayo on white, who the hell am I too judge? It's all just a preference. Should I consider someone different from me because they like hot dogs over tacos?

Who cares if its a choice or a compulsion? Does it make a difference? People [i]are[/i] who they [i]is[/i], whether they want to be or not.
[/COLOR]
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Well, I'm an out lesbian and I haven't come across any negativity in my years. My parents understood, peers, classmates, even co-workers all understood. They don't have to like it, because that's their OWN prerogative, but they have to treat and respect me just as I do them.

People have their beliefs whether or not their in favor of homosexuality. People don't talk about it because they feel all gays should be burned at the stake or something or their afraid that if they stand up and support us, then their own friends/families etc. will shun THEM. People do things for different reasons. And it's never bothered me unless it harms me physically, otherwise, I really could care less what people think of me.

Which is why a lot of people enjoy my company. Mainly because I don't care. I actually enjoy the attention when people look at me. So I'm lesbian, big deal.

The media spreads like wildfire if a celeb hits the night out with the same sex. Some people think it's 'cool' or 'hip' to be gay or at least hang out with someone who is. Call me old skool even though I'm only 20, but I find it amusing when teen girls walk by me and are like OMG, she's soooo cool! Look at how she carries herself! She has a tattoo! I WANT A TATTOO!! :animeswea

The only thing that grinds my gears is when people ask me how it is to be lesbian. I mean, come on, common sense is free but I don't ask anyone how it is to be straight, so don't ask... It's no different from loving a man if you're a woman or vice versa, it's just my preferences are a little crooked but I'm still human.

Now as far as religion, I'm none to caring about how that plays into my sexuality as a whole. I'm not religious but I respect other peoples beliefs and what not. And yet, I've never comes across anyone who's told me god will strike his fury on me for laying with another woman or anything like that.

Oh, and that common homophobic misconception of OMFG, if they touch me, talk to me, look at me, I'll become one of them! Gimme a break... Most of my friends are straight girls and they all don't at all feel thwarted by the fact that I'm gay. Sure, I dress like a little skater/emo/punk boy but that doesn't mean I'm going to flirt with EVERY SINGLE GIRL I set my eyes on... Good lord...:animeangr

I get the stares, the steak eyes, the whispers and the comments. But I don't care if I'm walking down the street holding my girlfriends hand.

Because I'm [b]happy[/b]. Because I [b]love[/b] her.

And because I'm nonchalant about society and what they view as immoral, wrong, blasphemous or outrageous...

Love knows no bounds, sees no color, race or gender...

If you're in love, you're in love.

Be it you're a guy who likes guys or a girl who likes girls. You're in [b]love[/b] and [b]nothing[/b] and [b]no one[/b] can EVER take that privilege away from you...

If you don't like me cause I'm gay, that's your business. I'm just like you but I like things a little differently.

Call me immoral, call me a freak, tell me I'm going to hell!

I'm still [b]human[/b]. A child of god some may say.

Homosexuality is not a disease, talking to me won't convert you, I'm not going to flirt with all the girls and I'm actually happy being with a girl. :animesigh

All I can say is that if you dislike me because I'm gay, you're missing out on one of the coolest, most out, most awesome chicks to hang out with! ^_~
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