Homosexuality: Discussion of

[Darren]

Just to clear up Sodom and Gamorrah:
[quote name='Genisis 18:20 & 21(NIV)']Then the Lord said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gamorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."[/quote]
I think the misconception of it being destroyed because of homosexual acts is because after the angels decided to stay at Lot's house, they were surrounded by every man in Sodom, "young and old" and they demanded Lot to bring them out so they could have sex with them.

So while rape and sodomy may have been two of the reasons that the cities were destroyed, that verse I posted proves that, according to the bible, it was because of their "sins were so grievous." Not that sodomy, rape, and homosexuality were so grievous.
I believe that the word Sodomy is derived from the part where the men demand to have sex with the angels.

[KingEarthEater]

Okay, well I'll just say my thoughts (and not quote anyone... like a usually would).

I don't exactly agree with it, but I have some friends that are homosexual and that doesn't change the way I treat them.
Well, I have a friend, who is open about the fact that he likes other men, that won't change anything (the way I look at him, or the way I treat him) because he knows that I'm not homosexual. I mean, if he was straight, that wouldn't change anything either, because I treat people on how they treat me.
Now, there are thing to hate about me (that I'm sure people would disagree with), but why would I try to tell someone to stop something if I'm just as much at fault?

Thats just my quick thoughts though.

[Fyxe]

[size=1]I really like it when people use the Bible as an excuse for shunning homosexuality, considering everything in the Bible is an opinion, and not the law of nature.
Just pointing that out in a friendly manner.

Ahh, whatever happened to "love knows no boundaries"? I guess gender wasn't considered. :p

Don't let ignorance win, kids, let love.

(And for the record, I'm a lesbee.)

:whoops:[/size]

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]Thanks a lot guys, I go for a nights sleep and you add three pages to the discussion. You all suck except for Ken who made me laugh. :p

One thing I will admit, and I think this is natural given the fact that I'm male and have been raised with beautiful women on TV and the older brothers of friends who had enormous stacks of porno magazines in their room, is that I am a bit more uncomfortable about to sight of/the idea of gay male intimacy than I am about heterosexual intimacy or lesbian intimacy. As I said, it's not intended to sound homophobic, I just think as a twenty year old guy it's understandable.

On a side note, I don't know whether this makes me prudish or not, but I generally consider kissing and cuddling about the furthest people should go in public with their intimacy[/SIZE]

[quote name='The Boss'][color=darkred][size=1]I'm pretty sure that it's an accepted fact that homosexuality does not serve much "biological" purpose, being that it bares no children. But marriage doesn't make sense either. All marriage does is limit human beings to single sexual partners to bare children with, while in reality, we would have a much firmer population should males be allowed to impregnate any woman he like, one after the other.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

[size=1]It actually does make sense Mike, and believe it or not, it's very important for that whole "biological purpose". If a man or woman is allowed only one sexual partner for their children, and that couple live in area/time that precludes travel away from their local area then the local village/town survives longer because the children are genetically distinct from those of other couples, leading to the ability to have more children down the line.

To tie it down to an analogy, there's an area about fourteen miles away from my called The Commons and it's people must have practiced that idea of having kids with other people when they fancied. The situation now is that everyone there is related to one another, and given some of them people I know from there, are suffering the effects of too close blood relations having children together. Seriously, I could probably show you a picture of the "missing link" by photographing one of them.

It doesn't make sense nowadays of course as people travel further a field to meet their potential spouses, but seeing as marriage is a very old concept you can see the logic of it when it started.[/size]

[quote name='Fyxe'][size=1]I really like it when people use the Bible as an excuse for shunning homosexuality, considering everything in the Bible is an opinion, and not the law of nature.
Just pointing that out in a friendly manner.[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]To you it's opinion Fyxe, to them it is the law of God which transcends all other laws, depending on how literally they take the teachings. As I've said already, I don't really give a damn because it doesn't affect me directly.[/SIZE]

[Raiyuu]

I have skimmed the thread and have this to say:

1. I have a problem with the conception of homosexuality as an 'issue' that one can 'be against'. We're not talking about political policy here. We're talking about aspects of people's personality which (regardless of what [b]you[/b] may believe) are considered by many to be an inherent, unchangeable trait. I fail to see how anyone can be 'against homosexuality' (however tolerantly or benignly) and still consider, say, racism to be an evil. It's all prejudice, people. Prejudice bad.

2. I have limited Bible knowledge, but isn't the whole Sodom and Gomorrah bit in the Old Testament ([b]Vengeful God![/b]), and didn't Jesus come along in the New Testament and say 'forget all that stuff that happened before, you should really love everyone equally' ([b]Loving God[/b])?

I also heard on the television (it must be true!) that the bit that says you can't be gay is the same bit that says you can't eat pork and locusts (non-Kosher food). So if you're living your life by the Bible's assurance that homosexuality is wrong, you should also be eating strictly Kosher. And, as Retri pointed out, stoning disobedient children.

People who know the Bible, feel free to pull me up on my references, but I stand by point 1 (even in a purely semantic sense - saying you're 'against homosexuality' really divorces you from the reality of your statement, which is that you're prejudiced against [b]homosexual people[/b]).

What I mean is you can't just be against homosexuality as an abstract concept. It's not abstract. It's people. Or something.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Raiyuu']2. I have limited Bible knowledge, but isn't the whole Sodom and Gomorrah bit in the Old Testament ([b]Vengeful God![/b]), and didn't Jesus come along in the New Testament and say 'forget all that stuff that happened before, you should really love everyone equally' ([b]Loving God[/b])?[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Stop listening to Homer for your Bible interpretations Raiyuu. :p Of course if you weren't, you're still right, but generally most Christians like to forget all that vengeful God stuff, which is Jewish, until it becomes useful again, for instance in discussions like this. [/SIZE]

[quote name='Raiyuu']I also heard on the television (it must be true!) that the bit that says you can't be gay is the same bit that says you can't eat pork and locusts (non-Kosher food). So if you're living your life by the Bible's assurance that homosexuality is wrong, you should also be eating strictly Kosher.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"][[I]Puts down his fried locust.[/I]]

In the words of Peter Griffin, you son of a ***** !![/SIZE]

[Magus]

[font=comic sans ms][color=blue]Heh, if we're all stating that I was using the bible as part of my reasoning for not hanging around homosexuals (but I'm going to take it as a general comment :)) are quite mistaken. And it's clear that we skipped my first post.

[quote name='me']I am also against homosexuality, but I don't judge anyone for being gay. I haven't been around people who are gay, (mainly because I haven't been hanging out much.) but the way I see it, if you want to be gay then that's yo business.[/quote]

I am christian, but I know my limits, and I am nowhere at a point to where I can toss out scripture to prove anything. (If that's how my other post came off then my bad.) If anything, I was merely pinpointing the passage(s) for Sesshoumarufan since he/she wanted to see it.

If we're not talking to me then just skip this whole post. :animeswea I'll get rid of it eventually. :)[/font][/color]

[Zen]

[quote name='Gavin']

[size=1]It actually does make sense Mike, and believe it or not, it's very important for that whole "biological purpose". If a man or woman is allowed only one sexual partner for their children, and that couple live in area/time that precludes travel away from their local area then the local village/town survives longer because the children are genetically distinct from those of other couples, leading to the ability to have more children down the line.

To tie it down to an analogy, there's an area about fourteen miles away from my called The Commons and it's people must have practiced that idea of having kids with other people when they fancied. The situation now is that everyone there is related to one another, and given some of them people I know from there, are suffering the effects of too close blood relations having children together. Seriously, I could probably show you a picture of the "missing link" by photographing one of them.

It doesn't make sense nowadays of course as people travel further a field to meet their potential spouses, but seeing as marriage is a very old concept you can see the logic of it when it started.[/size]

[/QUOTE]
[color=darkred][size=1]

You make a good arguement, but you forget that back back back in the day, people married their cousins, and I'm not entirely sure if there was any ill-effect on the populace. I'm not defending inbreeding, but whenever we read Shakespeare, or anything beyond the 1900's in school, you always get the "Ew, gross" stuff because characters always married a relation.

While it may make sense to marry, it would also make sense to simply keep track of who fathered who. Maybe that's why long ago, people didn't go by last names and just went by "So and so, Son of that guy".

And even if I am wrong, which is a fact I'm willing to accept, it still doesn't break my arguement that homosexuality is as old as most civilization, possibly as old as the concept of marriage. So while many people argue that it's unnatural, it seems to have come pretty naturally to ancient man.... thousands of years ago.[/color][/size]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

It's been a while since this topic was brought up, or rather in a sense where people are discussing it a bit more deeply. Still since the last time I commented, my views have not changed. I do not agree with homosexuality at all. I've been raised to believe that it's a sin and that view has not changed. And it?s not easy to drop things you?ve learned as a kid, or to accept something you do not agree with. Or as some would put it, learn to be tolerant. To accept that it?s not your place to make other?s choices for them.

But at least I have moved to the point where regardless of what I think, I no longer try or expect others to think the same. Yes I think it's wrong, yes I think it's a sin. But do I try to interfere? No. Because in the end, according to my beliefs, that will be God's call, not mine.

I suppose the one thing I have learned or perhaps think differently in regards to this issue, is that I no longer support legislation that would restrict the rights of gays in any manner. Because it is hypocritical for one to say that it's their choice and then turn around and support laws that would take that choice away from them. What makes that sad, for me that is, is that it took me over thirty years to realize that.

[Japan]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]I guess I post because I am bored?

To me, my philosophy makes perfect sense. The Bible says to not accept homosexuality and I don't. But, regardless what life choices that people make, I'm still their friend and care for them. I do not accept what they do, but I love them anyways. And, how can I be homophobic if I have friends who are homosexual?[/COLOR]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Japan_86'][COLOR="DarkRed"]I guess I post because I am bored?

To me, my philosophy makes perfect sense. The Bible says to not accept homosexuality and I don't.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]And why, exacly, do you do just as the bible says? Do you have no mind of your own? I mean, I'm not saying anyone is stupid for liking the ideas of the bible, but it's just a book with some good ideas. It's dangerous to trust everything you read, yaknow.[/COLOR]

[AzureWolf]

[quote name='The Boss'][color=darkred][size=1]You make a good arguement, but you forget that back back back in the day, people married their cousins, and I'm not entirely sure if there was any ill-effect on the populace.[/color][/size][/QUOTE][COLOR=maroon]There are a couple of known, increased incidence conditions for communities that are closely related to one another. Take the infamously frequent sixth digit in Amish communities. CAVEAT: while 6th digit mutation it is MORE frequent in the closed communities compared to open (i.e., relative), the rate of incidence is still very low in both (i.e. absolute). So you can have 500% greater chance of getting it if you're in that population (relative), but if the chance was originally 0.001% (absolute 0.5%), it's still not much of a big deal.[/COLOR]

[silpheedpilot]

[COLOR="SlateGray"][SIZE="1"]Who cares? Gays will be gays and straight people will be straight. Just like white racists will always be white racists and black racists will always be black racists. People aren't going to change their views just because people got butthurt they were discriminated.
Discrimination runs rampant through the USA so much still and it ain't gonna change anytime soon.
There isn't well enough awareness on such the taboo that is homosexuality for straight people to really conceive whats the 'big deal'.

Personally, I don't believe in Christianity or any other form of religion and such I think that a really old book that says you should and shouldn't do things is in any condition to be making demands.
Hey, look, if you're gay do your thing and don't let people who believe in some unseen, unknown 'force' tell you thats wrong.

Really, I agree with; 'They're just lovin' someone' and thats fine.

I'll leave you with the best summary for homosexuality..

"The Todd appreciates hot, regardless of gender." - The Todd; 'Scrubs'[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Raiyuu]

@Tombstone: the part of your original post I have a problem with is this.
[quote name='Tombstone']I am also against homosexuality, but I don't judge anyone for being gay.[/quote]It just feels like an oxymoron to me. I can't fathom how you could be against homosexuality as a concept but still consider yourself to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Homosexual people come part and parcel of the homosexuality package - without homosexual people, homosexuality as a concept wouldn't exist. So you're either prejudiced against homosexuality, and by extension homosexual people, or you aren't. You can't split the noun from the adjective and say "I disagree with this concept but if you actually apply it to a person then I'm okay with it," because if you claim to disagree with it in the first place then you clearly [b]aren't[/b] okay with it, whether it's abstract or concrete.

The stuff I threw in about the Bible was a general point, not aimed specifically at you. I get hacked off with the amount of selectivity people apply to the Bible to make it fit their anti-gay arguments.

[Japan]

[quote name='Raiyuu']@Tombstone: the part of your original post I have a problem with is this.
It just feels like an oxymoron to me. I can't fathom how you could be against homosexuality as a concept but still consider yourself to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Homosexual people come part and parcel of the homosexuality package - without homosexual people, homosexuality as a concept wouldn't exist. So you're either prejudiced against homosexuality, and by extension homosexual people, or you aren't. You can't split the noun from the adjective and say "I disagree with this concept but if you actually apply it to a person then I'm okay with it," because if you claim to disagree with it in the first place then you clearly [b]aren't[/b] okay with it, whether it's abstract or concrete.

The stuff I threw in about the Bible was a general point, not aimed specifically at you. I get hacked off with the amount of selectivity people apply to the Bible to make it fit their anti-gay arguments.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]I think what Tombstone is trying to get across is this wise old saying:

Love the sinner, hate the sin[/COLOR]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Raiyuu']
It just feels like an oxymoron to me. I can't fathom how you could be against homosexuality as a concept but still consider yourself to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Homosexual people come part and parcel of the homosexuality package - without homosexual people, homosexuality as a concept wouldn't exist. So you're either prejudiced against homosexuality, and by extension homosexual people, or you aren't. You can't split the noun from the adjective and say "I disagree with this concept but if you actually apply it to a person then I'm okay with it," because if you claim to disagree with it in the first place then you clearly [b]aren't[/b] okay with it, whether it's abstract or concrete. [/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]I hate yellow cars, but not the people who drive them. I can recognize that a person is worthwhile despite such an obvious rift in our opinions.

If you'd like something a little less extreme, I am against stealing, and yet I have friends who steal. It may irk me, but there's considerably more to a person than one trait that I disagree with.

As for me? I love homosexuals. Can't get enough of them.[/color]

[Gavin]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy'][COLOR="DarkOrange"]And why, exacly, do you do just as the bible says? Do you have no mind of your own? I mean, I'm not saying anyone is stupid for liking the ideas of the bible, but it's just a book with some good ideas. It's dangerous to trust everything you read, yaknow.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[size=1]The very fact you don't understand the significance of the Bible to people is why you don't understand their viewpoint. These people have faith that the Bible is the Word of God, and as such is His belief on the subject of life and how we are to live our lives. And before you say "but it was written by men", the Bible was supposedly the work of God through others, much like the Qur'an.[/size]

[quote name='Nerdsy'][color=deeppink]As for me? I love homosexuals. Can't get enough of them.[/color][/QUOTE]

[size=1]That explains the pink font Nerdsy :p[/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Gavin'][size=1]The very fact you don't understand the significance of the Bible to people is why you don't understand their viewpoint. .[/size][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]I don't understand them, that is true. Which means there's basically a mutual misunderstanding between us. Which is increadibly frightening to me.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy'][COLOR="DarkOrange"]I don't understand them, that is true. Which means there's basically a mutual misunderstanding between us. Which is increadibly frightening to me.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I don't see why it's frightening to you DB, I mean to core message of the Bible has always been one of love and peace, though admittedly it has often been perverted to other uses by those in power, i.e. Crusades and Inquisitions, that said, the former was as much of a political and economic decision as a religious one.

There are of course rules to be observed, but that is the case with any system of life and law. [/SIZE]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='2007DigitalBoy;784545][COLOR="DarkOrange"]And why, exacly, do you do just as the bible says? Do you have no mind of your own? I mean, I'm not saying anyone is stupid for liking the ideas of the bible, but it's just a book with some good ideas. It's dangerous to trust everything you read, yaknow.[/COLOR][/QUOTE][quote name='Gavin'][size=1']The very fact you don't understand the significance of the Bible to people is why you don't understand their viewpoint. These people have faith that the Bible is the Word of God, and as such is His belief on the subject of life and how we are to live our lives. And before you say "but it was written by men", the Bible was supposedly the work of God through others, much like the Qur'an.[/size][/quote]Honestly, I think that goes both ways. Sometimes I think people who believe in the Bible don't understand the viewpoint of those who think its nothing more than a book. It's a lack of understand on both sides in my opinion. ;) And being one of those who does not believe in the Bible or any other religious text for that matter, I find it hard to understand why people are relying on an ancient manuscript that on many levels is disputed over whether or not it's actually true. But that is a discussion for another thread yes?

Anyway... having said that, I don't believe in God or any of that stuff as to why homosexuality is wrong or a sin. And though I myself am straight, I see no issue or problem with people who are not. I've never understood why people get so uptight or upset over how someone else has sex. lol

At the end of the day, it doesn't change anything for you. Your life isn't really changed at all because of what others may or may not be doing behind closed doors.[/COLOR]

[Inuyasha Fandom]

Wow, i honestly didn't expect so many unique responses. I honestly only expected one or two and that was the extent.

I'm happy i was able to read so many unique perspective, even though some made no sense.:animeswea

But, people should be free to entwine the threads of fate any way they wish, should they not? Once the threads of fate ARE entwined, they can never be undone. The pursuit of love, regardless of gender, is in itself in my opinion, a crock, but one i will not admit being above. It's a hope, to find one who loves you regardless of any 'quirks'

That and of itself, it's a dream, a romantic dream with a pretty song. To me, it's sickeningly sweet, and i turn off the TV in disgust, because I don't want to admit I too one day dream of finding that love so deeply expressed, and I want all those corny things done for me. I don't care for them, but it makes me feel cared for. I know that sounds odd, or it makes no sense, but does love itself make sense?

Love is love, why and how can people condem it? Isn't love one of the most beautiful pains anyone can ever have???

'Love is thy sweetest sorrow, and thy most woeful joy'

[Sandy]

I don't get this thread. It's so different from all the previous ones. :/

In the past the threads went, almost without exception: "Gay people are the coolest!" "No they're not, they're horrible sinners!!!" "No they're not, my best friend is gay and we always go shopping together!!!!!" "No, the Bible says they should be killed and I agree!!!!!!11". At that point the mods would lock the thread.

But now everybody have seemed to accept the idea that you cannot just wipe out a large minority of people for doing against your liking. So they accept us gays as [I]people[/I], but still don't accept us as what we are - men loving men, women loving women, and don't even get me started on everything that goes on in between!

Like Raiyuu has been noting in this thread already, people are posting oxymorons and paradoxes about hating homosexuality but having homosexual best friends. And [I]that[/I] is weird. How can you be friends with someone who lives in a way you think is appalling?

Because homosexuality, and you can take this as a fact from a person who is a homosexual himself, is NOT just a sexual thing, it's NOT just an act. It really, truly is a way of life.

I'm not satisfied with just banging my boyfriend, not by far. I want to share my life with him, move in together, visit each other's families on holidays, see the world with him, and grow old with him by my side.

Now if someone would please tell me what's so wrong with wanting that with another person? And no, I won't take "because you both have penises" for an answer. ;P

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]All this pseudo-apocalyptic talk of 'hey, babies come from hetero sexxorz guys' reminds me of a book I once read which might interest people who love to wonder about those kinds of things called [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forever_War]The Forever War[/url]. Check it out if you are so inclined.

DB, the Bible is believed to be the word of God primarily because it says it is and Christianity believes in the accuracy of the text's history. You have to realize to Christians it is not just a book, it is a book that was written by humans inspired by Jehovah and tells of his teachings, laws, miracles and the saga of Jesus eventual birth, life, death and beyond into the future apocalypse. Though it was authored by humans the point is that the authorship and writings were influenced by the God they worship.

When someone says "the Bible says X" it is usually just their interpretation of it as there are literally dozens of different ways the Bible has been, currently is, and will be viewed. This is most evident by the hundreds of separate sects that have existed within the broader name of "Christianity". Theologians, Biblical scholars, Middle Eastern Historians, and Archaeologists just bring more complex thoughts to what the Bible says, if the Bible is true, if events in the Bible happened, etc.

It's more complicated than "why do you believe in a mere book".[/color]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Japan_86'][COLOR="DarkRed"]I guess I post because I am bored?

To me, my philosophy makes perfect sense. The Bible says to not accept homosexuality and I don't. But, regardless what life choices that people make, I'm still their friend and care for them. I do not accept what they do, but I love them anyways. And, how can I be homophobic if I have friends who are homosexual?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[size=1]But again this is an invalid point. Why do you get to choose to follow one verse in Leviticus that says "homosexuality is bad" and yet you don't follow the one that says "you can stone disobedient children"? If you're going to start picking and choosing which laws you follow [i]which are presented in the same book[/i], what does that say about all those laws? Essentially that you can decide what you want to follow and what you don't.

And if I remember correctly, Jesus' entire message was to forsake the literal meaning of the law and follow the spirit of it. If you discriminate against homosexuals simply because your holy book tells you so, you are the same as the Pharisees Jesus denounced. The biggest point of Christianity is total love, nonjudgment, and treating everyone with respect and equality.[/size]

[Gavin]

[quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]Honestly, I think that goes both ways. Sometimes I think people who believe in the Bible don't understand the viewpoint of those who think its nothing more than a book. It's a lack of understand on both sides in my opinion. ;) And being one of those who does not believe in the Bible or any other religious text for that matter, I find it hard to understand why people are relying on an ancient manuscript that on many levels is disputed over whether or not it's actually true. But that is a discussion for another thread yes?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I definitely understand what you're saying Crystia, and I think it's the crux of the whole debate. There's an utter lack of understanding on both sides of what drives the other half's arguments. Those in support of homosexuality see the Bible to be an out of date document written by zealots centuries ago that has no bearing on modern society, while the religious see them as being the letter of right and wrong on the world given by it's creator. I think if both sides just took a second to have a breather and really try to understand the other side's arguments there'd be a lot less volitility about the argument.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Sandy']So they accept us gays as [I]people[/I], but still don't accept us as what we are - men loving men, women loving women, and don't even get me started on everything that goes on in between![/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]You mean like mean like men loving women and women loving men ? ;) I'm just kidding Sandy.[/SIZE]