Controversy is the word of the day!

[Charles]

There was a really interesting discussion in class today about abortion that I figured I'd share with everyone. This is a very controversial issue that's really hard to argue for either way, hence the class was split on the subject.

Many people argue that aborting a baby is murder. As I understand it women are allowed to get abortions up until three months into their pregnancy cycle(someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Under this three months the fetus develops certain functions that cause many to argue that it is a person and has rights. Depending on how you look at it, they're correct. I'll put up a few simple facts to illustrate:

Day 20: Foundations of the brain, spinal cord and nervous system are already established.

Day 21: The heart begins to beat.

Day 28: The backbone and muscles are forming. Arms, legs, eyes and ears have begun to show.

Day 30: The heart is pumping increasing quantities of blood through the circulatory system.

Day 35: Five fingers can be discerned in the hand. The eyes darken as pigment is produced.

Day 40: Brain waves can be detected and recorded.

Day 42: The liver is now taking over the production of blood cells and the brain begins to control movement of muscles and organs.

Now, half of the class considered this living; the other half says that the child must be able to live outside of the womb to be considered living. Furthermore, there's situation in womens' rights and that the government shouldn't be able to control what they do with their bodies. I was wondering what everyone else's stance on this might be.

[BabyGirl]

[color=deeppink]Alright, I'll let this topic go on [b]only if people stay civil[/b]! (since we've tried this one before). I don't want to see [b]any[/b] flaming or cutting down on others because of their beliefs. It will be closed if I do :)[/color]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo] Being a guy, I really find this a hard topic to relate to. It is an issue that could effect me in my life, however, never in the same way that it would a woman. If the debate is about when a fetus becomes a living organism, I would have to say it would be immediately upon conception, when the sperm and egg have joined, it is then a microrganism.

I think the bigger issue is whether or not the baby is aware as a human being is aware. I think that will be a question that we my never know the awnser to.

Personally, I have nothing against a woman getting an abortion if she is doing it fo one of the following reasons.

She cannot take care of the child, and cannot find suitable parents to adopt the child.

She is afraid that there will be complications that arise from the birth that could harm her or the baby.

She is an avid drug user.

She was raped or sexually assaulted.

Besides those reasons I think it is wrong for a woman to have an abortion, but I don't think that it is really murder, instead it is just pointless killing.

But again my opinion on this issue is kind of wishy-washy because I am a man and it could never effect me the same way it would effect a woman. [/color]

[Justin]

I disagree with abortion unless the conditions are the following:

She was raped.

Otherwise, there are other, and in my opinion, better options. I know I'm not a woman, so I can't relate to this topic as well as a woman could, but I would not push my girlfriend/wife to have an abortion.

I'll also be watching this topic. The first person that I catch flaming will have to answer to me.

-Justin

[Defcon5]

Abortion is wrong. If they are raped I would try to find a good home for the baby. But if worse comes to worse than I guess it would be ok. The only other exception is if the mother would die or somthing like that. Other than that Abortion is a big no no in my book.

[Turkey]

Orphanages are there for a reason. If the mother can't take care of the child, or if she is raped, she should give the child for adoption. A person once said that the man who would discover the cure for cancer has already been aborted...

[velvet paws]

Unless the child can live without outside help (the mother or hospital equipment) for [u]at least[/u] a few minuets then it was never technically alive in my eyes. If a baby is born premature then it gets a little complicated but as long as it will be able to survive okay after maybe a few days of monitering then I guess I'll have to agree it's alive.

As for the mother getting rid of the baby. She doesn't need any reason other than the fact that she does not with to have the child. It's not fair for anyone involved if a child is born unwanted.

I am 100% in agreement with abortion. I would use it myself if I suddenly found out I was with child...or if I actually planned *shudders* on having a baby but it was descovered that it would be seriously mentally or physically damaged. I have nothing wrong with people who have these problems..but I myself couldn't raise a child with extra needs..I don't have the dedication and probably wont find the money or time either.

[EDIT] I just wanted to mention that there can be complications in an abortion which may mean that the woman can never get pregnant again. I myself wouldn't be bothered about this. If I really really wanted a baby/child I would, and feel other people in the same situation should consider, addopting a child. It doesn't matter if this baby's/child's parents are still alive or anything..I wouldn't be that fussed about what the background was because different people have different views on babies/children and what to do with them...as long as I felt that the baby/child would be welcome in my home and would be brought up right..I'd try to get it. [/EDIT]

[Lady Macaiodh]

i personally would never get one. i've actually seen a regular d & c performed & i don't see how anyone could put themselves or a baby through that. but i also don't think i have the right to tell anyone else what to do & i don't think it should be made illegal.

[Fall]

Aborting a baby [i]is[/i] murder, but many people who have an aborting don't like to think of it that way. If you have an abortion, you're killing a living human...

Well I certainly would talk it over with my wife if she wanted an abortion...

[Guest Matt]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Squashed Snail [/i]
[B]Aborting a baby [i]is[/i] murder, but many people who have an aborting don't like to think of it that way. If you have an abortion, you're killing a living human...

Well I certainly would talk it over with my wife if she wanted an abortion... [/B][/QUOTE]

i totally agree. abortion under any circumstances is wrong.

[Duo Maxwell]

it all depends on the person, who has to decide.
some people do it cos its likely to be an un-wnted pregnacy and some cos they either can't carry the child or the child won't survive
but no-one thinks of the all the waste thats left in the body after the baby is removed.

I reckon abortion is bad, but I can't decide because there can be so many complications with childberth.
and anyway the people who have abortions [i]do[/i] feel bad about it, I know my "auntie" had an abortion because her boyfriend didn't want to have a baby and she felt bad about it.

half the time rapists don't even ejaculate so its hard for the person to get pregnant

[Delian]

Personally, I wouldn't get an abortion because the only way I will ever be with child is if I had planned on having one after I get married.

Generally speaking, though, a woman should have the right to choose abortion, however only when the baby is in it's early embryo stage, because at that time it will not have developed any human qualities. It would be considered unethical and basically murder if she decides to abort it in it's later embryo or early feotus stage.....

There are so many unwanted children in the world. It's sad to hear stories in the news about how a baby was found in a dumpster, or was smothered because the parents did not want it. Thus I do support a woman's choice to have an abortion.

[Darkness]

I'm pretty much pro-choice. I don't agree with it as a method of birth-control, but I don't advocate bringing an unwanted child into the world. Especially when rape is involved; the baby was created under brutal criminal terms. I do believe that whatever choices are made should be made with the mother having the final say.

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Darkness [/i]
[B]I'm pretty much pro-choice. I don't agree with it as a method of birth-control, but I don't advocate bringing an unwanted child into the world. Especially when rape is involved; the baby was created under brutal criminal terms. I do believe that whatever choices are made should be made with the mother having the final say. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm pretty much leaning towards the pro-choice side myself. I don't mean to be graphic, but there are multiple young girls who do not want to bear a child, so they take a coat hanger and rip the fetus out of their uterus. I believe that if legal abortion was commonplace, the overall safety of young girls would be increased. Also, it would probably reduce the number of dumpster babies. It's dead wrong for a human life to be brought into the world that way.

[boris]

i am very torn, i would say its up to the woman, cuse i am a guy, i cant really relate to the idea of having a child. i do think its wrong to attack people out side a doctors office when they try to go in. most of the time its because of a "oops" and some of the time, its rape, if you ban it, rapeies would have to have the baby, so i still have to say its up to the woman.

[RicoTranzrig]

[COLOR=darkblue]I think that abortion is murder...but I know not everyone would agree. There have been a lot of court cases (roe vs. wade) and stuff related to that...There are ways for other people to stop an abortion on the basis of the woman's health, but that's it...otherwise, the awful procedure is done on the choice of the woman. But what bothers me is that when it is actually aborted and taken out of the mother...it looks like a human baby, a bit smaller but the features are there...and just reading about the procedure makes it seem unjust and brutal to human life.[/COLOR]

[Defcon5]

I don't see a difference between dumpster baby's and aborted babies. There both dead. And if a girl doesn't want a baby then they sshould be having sex. And if they need to have sex that much then use a freakin condum.

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Defcon5 [/i]
[B]I don't see a difference between dumpster baby's and aborted babies. There both dead. And if a girl doesn't want a baby then they sshould be having sex. And if they need to have sex that much then use a freakin condum. [/B][/QUOTE]

The difference between a dumpster baby and an aborted baby is quite a major one. As previously stated, abortions are done quite early, within the first trimester. A fetus can be aborted before it's developed significantly. Dumpster babies are children who are actually fully developed.

To throw a (most likely) living child(not fetus) into a garbage can is even more barbaric in my opinion. Once that child is born it definitely has rights as a person and one of those rights is the right to live.

Furthermore, even when using protection(such as a condom) there is always the possibility of conception. What if the condom breaks? You see, the only way to guarantee that there is no pregnancy is abstinance(which is barely practiced).

[asar]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Duo Maxwell [/i]
[B]half the time rapists don't even ejaculate so its hard for the person to get pregnant [/B][/QUOTE]

Even if they don't actually ejaculate, there is still the risk of pregnancy because during intercourse semen may "leak" out in what's called pre-cum. It still can cause pregnancy. That's also why the withdrawal method of contaception doesn't work.

Back on the topic, it personally is very hard to weigh up the differenc between the fact that you are denying someone the right to live their life, and the fact that, well, there are so many possible reasons why a woman wouldn't want a child. Rape, family, religion, unwanted ie not using a dommie....it really is a controversial issue, and i think that this thread could go for thousands of pages and we would still be no closer to a compelling argument for or against. In reality it's a personal choice, and all anyone besides yourself can do is talk...it's up to the individual to decide.

[Duo Maxwell]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by asar [/i]
[B]

Even if they don't actually ejaculate, there is still the risk of pregnancy because during intercourse semen may "leak" out in what's called pre-cum. It still can cause pregnancy. That's also why the withdrawal method of contaception doesn't work.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes I know this but still its hard to get the 'feeling' if someone is kicking and thrashing at you...

but still abourtion should be left to the woman, especially after what crazy white boy said about the girls and the coat hangers, thats gross. its as bad as when I was told a woman used a vaccume cleaner to get rid of her foetus.

[BabyGirl]

[color=deeppink]Man, I used to be very pro-choice, but over the months that I have been here, you have all given very good arguments against abortion. I think I'm sort of sitting on the fense on this issue right now.

Obviously, if the woman is raped, I think she has every right to an abortion. That's one opinion of mine that will not change. But if it comes from casual sex...then...gah...I still don't know

Guess it'll take some more thought on my part...and more years of wisdom as a woman :huh:[/color]

[Dan L]

Gah... this is gonna sound bad.. I just know it is..

In my opinion, though the fetus beyond Day 42 (going by CWB's timeline) is considered to be alive, it can not have a true awareness of it's surroundings. The brain, though operating, is still developing, and the fetus has little memory. Most people don't remember anything further back than when they were 5. Personally, I can remember some things from when I was 3 and a half, but for most, it's 4-5. Newly born babies have a [i]very[/i] short memory span, so in my opinion (I can neither prove nor test this) a three month old fetus should surely have little or no memory.

OK, that was my analytical view point, but at the same time, abortion bothers me. Although I think that the fetus's capacity of thought is very small, it is a living being. One that could grow up into an adult. I think that the people on the pro-abortion side seem to forget.. or rather, ignore.. this fact. Because the fetus is not very developed, it is easy to forget that we were once like that.

and about what CWB said about coat hangers.. I've heard that before also. Though not quite that specific. All I knew was that women used to take the fetuses out themselves.. though, not quite put that nicely. I think that if abortion is made illegal (in places where it is legal) this sort of thing will be far more common.

[James]

[color=royalblue]As I'm not a woman, I don't feel qualified to speak with authority on the subject. And I don't think any men have the right to dictate to a woman how they should or should not use their bodies.

Having said that, I spoke to my own mother about this issue -- she is pro choice.

She basically pointed out that a baby (whether living/not living) is still essentially a parasitic creature, which relies on its "host" (the mother).

Therefore, it is the host which has the right to decide the outcome of the situation.

Childbirth can be dangerous for both mother and baby -- but baby can often have a much more difficult time trying to survive.

While I'm against abortion in principle, I also understand that as the host, it is the mother's right to decide whether or not she wishes to allow the parasite to live or die. I don't use the word parasite in a bad way -- I'm using it as a technical term.

Therefore, it must always be the mother's choice. Even if another man or woman disagrees -- it's just not their business. It's like piercings or something...they are often unhealthy and some people feel that they're ugly, but the person who uses them has the right to decide how they use their own body.

Perhaps that's not the best example when it comes to comparing something with abortion, but I do feel that parallels can be drawn in the sense that a woman's body is her own and nobody else's.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]I don't use the word parasite in a bad way -- I'm using it as a technical term[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmmm... when I first read that post I thought 'perhaps 'parasite' is a bad word to use'.. but you're right, one of the definitions of parasite is:

[QUOTE]2. a. Biol. An animal or plant which lives in or upon another organism (technically called its host) and draws its nutriment directly from it. Also extended to animals or plants that live as tenants of others, but not at their expense (strictly called commensal or symbiotic); also to those which depend on others in various ways for sustenance, as the cuckoo, the skua-gull, etc. and (inaccurately) to plants which grow upon others, deriving support but not nourishment from them (epiphytes), or which live on decaying organic matter (saprophytes).[/QUOTE]

and in my opinion, 'An animal or plant which lives in or upon another organism and draws its nutriment directly from it', is a pretty accurate description of a fetus, so yeah, 'parasite' is probably the best word to use. Just to clear that up for anyone who might argue with that.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Deus_Ex_Machina [/i]
[B]

and in my opinion, 'An animal or plant which lives in or upon another organism and draws its nutriment directly from it', is a pretty accurate description of a fetus, so yeah, 'parasite' is probably the best word to use. Just to clear that up for anyone who might argue with that. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]Yep. Thanks for that, Dues. Nice to see that the term wasn't jumped on like I thought it may have been -- very good.

Also, I wonder why we tend to elevate a fetus to a position greater than its host.

I mean, if you are to let the mother die for example...she is leaving behind family...possibly other children...a husband...there is much more suffering to be had from the mother's death than that of the unborn fetus.

But also, why do we elevate the fetus to such a God-like status?

When most abortions occur, they usually occur well before the fetus has developed into a child. If you're going to argue about the "murder of the fetus", then you should also make sure you don't pick flowers (as you're murdering the plants), eat meat (as you're murdering the animals) etc etc...

Some may argue that a fetus has more rights than plants or animals. But if it isn't a developed human being, then I beg to differ.[/color]