Dan L

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Matt [/i] [B][color=red][b]It's just a fantasy, it's not committing adultery, no matter what you want to think.[/b][/color] [/B][/QUOTE] If that's what you think then that's fair enough, but I'm more inclined to believe that the thought processes in your mind don't differ very much between porn (or any other fantasy) and actual adultery. I also am inclined to believe that it's your intentions, not just the actions that you bring about, which constitute what's right and wrong, rather than purely the consequences of what you do. But there are many different ways of looking at it.. that's just mine

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn [/i] [B]Anyone remember the evil that was the Star Rating system? I rest my case. [/B][/QUOTE] lol yeah... Back in v2 my first thread essentially involved everyone giving everyone else a 5 rating.. or was it me giving everyone else a 5 rating, and them doing the same.. oh well, I dunno.. Actually, it didn't exactly start that way, but heh.. that's what it turned into (I'm not gonna recant this whole story about my first thread, and my old user name, again.. I'm sure someone else out there remembers it..)

[quote][i]originally posted by TN[/i] [b]I'm sure thats not what you meant though, so i'd like to know the exact verse if you have it.[/b][/quote] "You have heard it was said "Do not commit adultery". But now I tell you: anyone who looks at a woman and wants to possess her is guilty of committing adultery with her in his heart" (Matt 5:27-28) ;) I'd love to see a guy who buys playboy magazines (specifically) with the intention of not looking at them lustfully Now, that doesn't mean that all Christians don't do it.. what it means is that the Bible is against it

Since about last June (same time I converted to Christianity, funnily enough) I occasionally get the urge to put my rain-coat in my bag in the morning, when I go to uni.. It took me quite a while to realise that whenever I got that feeling, it [i]always[/i] (without fail, EVER) rained later that day... so I guess I do sometimes get the feeling that something's "wrong".. ish.. but not always in a "something's wrong [i]with someone[/i]" way.. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn [/i] [B]Though I [i]have[/i] had that sense of forgetting something--I've saved my own butt on a few occasions with that. Most of the time, however, I'm just being ridiculous. Maybe I'm obsessive/complusive? Oo;[/B][/QUOTE] I always think that.. but about 95% of the time I haven't forgotten anything.. I think I'm just never too certain..

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Elite [/i] [b][size=1]Depression forum?[/size] [/B][/QUOTE] heh.. that'd be both funny (to see) and disturbing (that it's needed) at the same time.. I kind of agree that something should be done.. but at the same time I know I for one wouldn't go in there, for fear of being depressed by the subject matter (hence if others feel the same no-one would get any help other than from people in the same situation).. so I think at the same time it's better not to do that..

[center][img]http://www.otakuboards.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=387767[/img] [b]Fed up of the novelty value of 10 year olds, and the general mickey taking they recieve from forming boy bands, record companies are now turning to cats for the next chart-topping novelty acts or Butch didn't know what he was in for when he let Fluffy listen to his heavy metal music[/center][/b]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i] [B]Sorry I didn't post one because I wasn't sure how long I should wait for Machina to post one... I guess since he hasn't posted one I will.... Good luck on this.....*grins* [IMG]http://www.otakuboards.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=386673[/IMG] [/B][/QUOTE] heh.. sorry, I kind of haven't been on since.. well, since before I was declared winner.. heh.. but anyway Cat: "Tell me I evolved to do [i]this[/i], and I will kick your ***!"

[B][img]http://www.pitchingwoo.net/mostlyrandom/eCards/odds/cat_loaf.jpg[/img] "Damn You, Jerry..."[/B]

I don't think suicide is really ever a justifiable thing to do. Justification of something that serious infers some intelligent thought on the matter, and the way I see it, it's not possible to come to the conclusion that suicide is good based on rational thought.. Suicide is generally an act on emotion- that emotion generally being depression. And depression, like anger, is one of the emotions it's best not to base your actions on.. so no

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crimson Spider [/i] [B]First of All, Jesus is going to come and get us long before then. And even if he didn't, We wouldn't survive.[/B][/QUOTE] Sometimes you need a good kick in the spiritual balls to give you some perspective on life.. I find that believing that the second coming could happen at any time without warning- and I mean honestly believing that- kind of makes me not want to waste time on trivial things which don't really matter.. I think my point is "I agree.. and it's kind of a scary thought"

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B]Deus Ex Machina I'm sorry but that's against most things I'm learning in school. I?m in a Christian school by the way. Quote | Deus - Evolution is not brought about by a need for change, it just happens. - As far as I'm concerned that is complete crap, if that was true why do we have an opposable thumb? You didn't think the need for it to hold basic tools had any effect on it becoming that way. I just find what you?re saying logically incorrect. As for random, what I see when I look at organisms is not random. Why do plants have viocty "veins", (thingies, looks at Harlequin for right spelling) so they can grow bigger in the competition for sun light. This is an adaptation. So is the multicellular idea, the cells group together to have a better chance of surviving. There are just too many examples that we can see make it so plain that was your saying is very far fetched. Though I can agree that the chance for an organism to evolve is random (that?s why some die out) but I can?t accept that the adaptations they do evolve are random, I see them all as having a purpose. (Or most any way.) Though considering you?re the biochemistry student you?re most likely right. So can you please explain what the heck you mean a bit better? Thanks. Eps - Bleh. :P [/B][/QUOTE] OK, I'll elaborate on exactly what I mean. Let's say you have a load of bacteria, and then you decide to kill them all with some antibiotic. Ideally, they all die, but in practice a few sometimes survive because they happen to have a resistance to that antibiotic. That resistance wasn't there [i]because[/i] the antibiotic was present, but it helped the bacteria out in the long run. Hence the future generations replicated from those bacteria will carry the same resistance. The same principle applies with higher organism evolution. The changes are absolutely random-- The plants have those viens, but there are probably a load of other ways- many of which may be more effective- of acheiving the same effect. The reason the plants have those veins is that they happened to evolve that way. I know what you're taught in school, and at the time I was in school I'd have the same standpoint, but as you go higher into education, those teaching you have a tendency to tell you that everything you've already learned is nothing but a vague generalisation, or an earlier theory on what there's actually a lot more to. The thing is, evolution is dependent on the envirionment only to select which slight changes are better than others. Humans have an opposable thumb because it was a random change which happened to be favoured by their surroundings- those without them didn't have the same capabilities and their genes gradually faded out through the generations. So yes. I know that until a certain point people are generally told that evolution is all about animals responding to their surroundings with a slight change over time- but what it's really about is a series of random changes, which may or may not be favourable to the species. Characteritics that are favourable tend to be passed on, those that aren't favourable aren't passed on. The most severe example of an unfavourable characteristic is when the baby dies instantly (or never really lives) as a result of it. Obviously, that baby would never have a chance to have kids, so it's genes don't get passed on. It's kind of the same for evolution as a whole, but on a more gradual level. If the world stops changing then it doesn't necessarily mean evolution would stop- but things would take a more random approach rather than being "selected" by the environment.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i] [B]Actually there are organisms that have changed little or not at all for much longer than 65 million years. Some coral species as well as some algae, and probably more I can't remember off the top of my head at the moment. This in no way goes against Darwin's theory of the the origin of species. In the original text, the phrase 'survival of the fittest' was used. But fittest did not mean strongest it refers to the one that best fits, ie survival of the organisms that best fit their environments. The connotation of survival of the strongest and 'jungle law' was a bastardization brought forth by racist theories based on the 'science' of 'eugenics' during the turn of 20th century. There is nothing strange about the idea of an organism surviving from the earliest forms. Its not counter to evolutionary theory if you understand what evolution is all about. Change is random, some species have no need to change, and change is [i]non-linear[/i]. The last point is very important. Although I think its probably best to discuss such things in a separate thread. Then again, the powers that be might not look too well upon such a thread. Its a sensitive topic and much has already been said. Then again, if repetition is a problem I'm not sure about the point of message boards in general. :D [/B][/QUOTE] Mnemolth, take this from someone who actually studies biochemistry: Evolution is [b]not[/b] brought about by a [i]need[/i] for change, it just happens. The environment only plays a small part in that it favours certain changes over others. Yes, it is completely random, but over a length of time it is also predictable, you can predict almost exactly how many mutations will appear in a genetic code, and with those mutations, in time, comes slight alteration of the species. For a species to stay exactly the same for that amount of time is near impossible, not because it [i]needs[/i] to change, but because it doesn't have a choice in the matter, or rather, shouldn't. I'm not saying these species should be a whole new species, that looks and acts completely different, but to not change at all over such a period of time just shouldn't theoretically happen. And no, it doesn't go against [i]Darwin[/i]'s theory, but I wasn't talking about that. The theory of evolution has come a [i]long[/i] way since then.

one minor off-topic point: There are a few species on Earth that haven't changed at all since the time of the dinosaurs. Try to explain that from an evolutionary point of view.. I mean, by now, 65 million years of random change must have changed them in some way. And don't forget that the change IS random. The environment of a creature doens't propagate the change, it only decides what is favourable. Evolution is actually seen as "luck" rather than survival of the fittest, in some ways. (I'm in no way saying evolution is untrue, I'm just saying that by the laws of evolution that's not possible) Also, on a similar note, bear in mind that at the rate we're progressing, in a few hundred years we could make a whole new person out of a single cell- and even then we'd be nowhere near God like. Now try and tell me God couldn't make Eve out of Adam's rib. But anyway.. I've sidetracked a great deal there..

Like Semjaza said, midis are never very big.. the biggest one I've ever made personally (this is my own work, nothing illegal.. heh) was about 70 K, but that thing was absolutely packed, and pretty long.. The only real down side to midis is they can sound terrible if you have a really old or really bad quality midi driver.. that and if they're too complicated, sometimes they glitch a lot.. or they do on my PC anyway.. newer PCs may not have that problem

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Medra [/i] [B]Heh. I love doing that.[/B][/QUOTE] I did notice what you said.. I just thought your first point was that bad it needed to be commented on ;p but anyway.. here's an email I received through the university today: [quote]To All Staff and Students Most of you will be aware of the outbreak of SARS in Guangdong Province and now further afield. The World Health Organisation (WHO) this week strongly advised UK public not to travel to Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, China or the Guangdong province of China. In addition the Health Protection Agency has issued a Health Alert Notice for international travellers from the United Kingdom, going to or returning from the following areas: Hong Kong Special Adminstrative Region, China Guangdong Province, southern China Hanoi, Vietnam Singapore Toronto, Canada Taiwan, China Beijing, China Shanxi, China Current information is available on the following websites [url]http://www.who.int/csr/sars/en/[/url] [url]http://www.doh.gov.uk/sars/index.htm[/url] [url]http://www.phls.org.uk/topics_az/SARS/menu.htm[/url] The last site has the Health Alert Notice (HAN) which you are encouraged to read if you intend to travel. The HAN provides guidance on the symptoms of SARS. You should also be aware that port health authorities in affected areas are likely to carry out health screening both on arrival and departure. Clive Rosiek Head of Occupational Health and Safety Unit University Secretary's Office[/quote] so essentially, people are being warned to be careful, if they are intending to travel to those areas.. if not, you have very little to worry about. Unless someone you know is, but heh..

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve[/i] [B]The bible, and other religious text, go against human nature itself... things that aren't in ur ability to follow, and I feel that if we don't have the ability to follow, why is it even there to begin with? It's against the human nature we all are. Which I find absolutely ridiculous. I've never met a pure Christian. I'm never met a Pure Muslim, and I've never met a pure Jew...[/B][/QUOTE] That is a good point.. I mean, the whole point at times with following the Bible is to try and control the bad things that come naturally to us.. and it is pretty impossible to get it perfect.. so yeah.. I see your point. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i] [B]First off, I dont appreciate the sarcastic tone you have taken. I never played the "know-it-all." So please just lay off on the personal angle of attack.[/B][/QUOTE] I don't think Justin was being sarcastic at all.. but heh.. the thing is, yes, there are a great deal of parts in the bible which offer guidelines for life, and a few parts which many would argue impossible to believe in.. but the majority [i]is[/i] a historical record of actual events. Evidence has actually been found that Sodom and Gomorrah existed, and were destroyed in a flood. The Bible pretty clearly says two things. That fire was involved, and that the city was swept away. Both of those can be verified. The details, I forget.. but it's probably floating about the web somewhere too (that's not where I found that information, by the way, it was on a documentary on TV. But it's bound to be out there as well) The point is, even if it's a book about faith, the majority of it can be verified as historically accurate, whether you believe the miracles or not.

take what you want, but if you do anything to my keyboard, my bass guitar, God, or Fiona (or "Fi-ski" as Rain has dubbed her, unofficially of course) and I'll kick your ***, whether it's against my religion or not.. lol.. kidding.. but heh.. yeah.. that's pretty much it, except the obvious things like family and close friends. oh yeah, and leave the amp alone too.. a bass is no good wi'out an amp.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]Because 90% of the people don't break the laws. But I'll be damned if 90% of all Christians or 90% of all Muslims or 90% of all Jews didn't go against what their text says. I get judged on a daily basis by people who claim that we shouldn't judge other people.[/B][/QUOTE] 90% of people probably do break the laws, as I think you said later in the post.. the thing is, we turn a blind eyes to a lot of it because to be honest, there are much worse things that people can do. That's also the main problem with religions, the fact that so many people see a few of the rules as "unimportant" or "for other people to follow". And of course, no-one's perfect. But the problem is that they're all excuses, rather than reasons not to go by the rules. I can't speak for the Muslim or Jew communities, but I [i]know[/i] there is a great deal of imperfection, corruption, and general disrespect in the majority of churches across the US and UK. I know that as a whole, by our own ideal standards, the majority of the Christian religion is pretty much going to hell at this rate. I don't even like being called "Christian" at times, because to me it says "I'm better than you" as opposed to "I'm your servant", which is what it should be. That's all because of the Christians people see around them, the judgemental, self-righteous type. Half of them think it's their God-given right to tell any non-Christians that they're going to hell for their sins, where they of course aren't. But unfortunately by that very action they are, by their own beliefs, condemning themselves. I just wanted to clear up that I am aware of the corruption and hypocrisy within the church.. but now onto my point. Yes, a great deal of Christians, Jews and Muslims don't actually obey the rules that have been set out for them, but the thing is, that doesn't make them pointless because they're there as a [i]guideline[/i]. Very few Christians (and probably other religions) actually go as far as to kill someone, but the they sometimes skip it with what they view as the "lesser rules". Of course, there are no lesser rules, but try convincing them that.. and it's the same in society. There are some rules which people just ignore and break anyway, and ultimately, where they draw the line depends from person to person. Encountering Judgemental people isn't a particularly nice thing. But heh.. ultimately they'll reap what the sow. It's a basic rule of life, whether you actually believe the Bible or not. And if their beliefs are true, then ultimately they'll be held accountable for their actions some day as well. The thing is, a lot of religious people get it [i]so[/i] wrong, it's kind of sad.. but it's not just about religion.. I dunno about the Muslim/Jewish take on it, but the ideal (biblical) Christian view is that it doesn't matter about the religious ceremonies and practices, and you don't need to do anything to actually be loved by God. Ultimately, it shouldn't be about religious ceremonies, and sacrifices, and who knows what else, to get on God's good side. The point is just to live for God in whatever way you can. Of all the people I know who understand that I can honestly say that [i]none[/i] of them would judge you. The first time I actually went to the church I go to now, I'd just been dismissed from work, for stealing, and they didn't judge me, at all. A lot (the majority) of churches would, and a lot of society in general would, but they didn't.. I personally think it's a shame there aren't a [i]lot[/i] more "Christians" who understand that. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]You can't compare religion to society. I can't come kill you and go "Opps. forgive me father for I have sinned" and be gone with it. Doesn't work that way.[/B][/QUOTE] and no, that wouldn't work.. for two reasons 1- I doubt you'd be very sincere about it, cos asking God for forgiveness doesn't work quite as simply as that.. as I said, you have to mean it.. and I mean really mean it. If you seriously believed in God then you'd know you couldn't fool him by planning to be forgiven for something you do. 2- I never said being forgiven by God means you don't have to face the consequences. You should be accountable for your actions, and Christians are told to obey the laws of the land. i.e. if the law says you go to prison for killing someone, then off to prison you go. You may be forgiven on an eternal level, but you still have to face up to what you did while on earth. So yeah.. God doesn't just say "oh, you're sorry.. OK, you can stay out of jail this time.. but don't do it again". but heh.. I think I just went a little off topic, but yeah.. that's what I meant earlier

[quote] [url]http://www.science.co.il/Israel-history.asp[/url] Quote from Charles Krauthammer - The Weekly Standard, May 11, 1998 "Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store." The people of Israel (also called the "Jewish People") trace their origin to Abraham, who established the belief that there is only one God, the creator of the universe (see Old Testament). Abraham, his son Yitshak (Isaac), and grandson Jacob (Israel), are referred to as the patriarchs of the Israelites. All three patriarchs lived in the Land of Canaan, that later came to be known as the Land of Israel. They and their wives are buried in the Ma'arat HaMachpela, the Tomb of the Patriarchs, in Hebron. The name Israel derives from the name given to Jacob (see Old Testament). His 12 sons were the kernels of 12 tribes that later developed into the Jewish nation. The name Jew derives from Yehuda (Judah) one of the 12 sons of Jacob. So, the names Israel, Israeli or Jewish refer to people of the same origin. The descendants of Abraham crystallized into a nation at about 1300 BCE after their Exodus from Egypt under the leadership of Moses (Moshe in Hebrew). Soon after the Exodus, Moses transmitted to the people of this new emerging nation, the Torah, and the Ten Commandments. After 40 years in the Sinai desert, Moses led them to the Land of Israel, that is cited in The Bible as the land promised by G-d to the descendants of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The people of modern day Israel share the same language and culture shaped by the Jewish heritage and religion passed through generations starting with the founding father Abraham (ca. 1800 BCE). Thus, Jews have had continuous presence in the land of Israel for the past 3,300 years. The rule of Israelites in the land of Israel starts with the conquests of Joshua (ca. 1250 BCE). The period from 1000-587 BCE is known as the "Period of the Kings". The most noteworthy kings were King David (1010-970 BCE), who made Jerusalem the Capital of Israel, and his son Solomon (Shlomo, 970-931 BCE), who built the first Temple in Jerusalem as prescribed in the Tanach (Old Testament). In 587 BCE, Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar's army captured Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and exiled the Jews to Babylon (modern day Iraq). The year 587 BCE marks a turning point in the history of the region. From this year onwards, the region was ruled or controlled by a succession of superpower empires of the time in the following order: Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire. [b]Foreign Empires that ruled in Israel[/b] 587 BCE Babylonian Destruction of the first Temple. 538-333 BCE Persian Return of the exiled Jews from Babylon and construction of the second Temple (520-515 BCE). 333-63 BCE Hellenistic Conquest of the region by the army of Alexander the Great (333 BCE). The Greeks generally allowed the Jews to run their state. But, during the rule of the king Antiochus IV, the Temple was desecrated. This brought about the revolt of the Maccabees, who established an independent rule. The related events are celebrated during the Hanukah holiday. 63 BCE-313 CE Roman The Roman army led by Titus conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple at 70 CE. Jewish people were then exiled and dispersed to the Diaspora. In 132, Bar Kokhba organized a revolt against Roman rule, but was killed in a battle in Bethar in Judean Hills. Subsequently the Romans decimated the Jewish community, renamed Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolina and Judea as Palaestina to obliterate Jewish identification with the Land of Israel (the word Palestine, and the Arabic word Filastin originate from this Latin name). The remaining Jewish community moved to northern towns in the Galilee. Around 200 CE the Sanhedrin was moved to Tsippori (Zippori, Sepphoris). The Head of Sanhedrin, Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi (Judah the Prince), compiled the Jewish oral law, Mishna. 313-636 Byzantine 636-1099 Arab Dome of the Rock was built by Caliph Abd el-Malik on the grounds of the destroyed Jewish Temple. 1099-1291 Crusaders The crusaders came from Europe to capture the Holy Land following an appeal by Pope Urban II, and massacred the non-Christian population. Later Jewish community in Jerusalem expanded by immigration of Jews from Europe. 1291-1516 Mamluk 1516-1918 Ottoman During the reign of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent (1520-1566) the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem were rebuilt. Population of the Jewish community in Jerusalem increased. 1917-1948 British Great Britain recognized the rights of the Jewish people to establish a "national home in Palestine". Yet they greatly curtailed entry of Jewish refugees into Israel even after World War II. They split Palestine mandate into an Arab state which has become the modern day Jordan, and Israel. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After the exile by the Romans, the Jewish people migrated to Europe and North Africa. In the Diaspora (scattered outside of the Land of Israel), they established rich cultural and economic lives, and contributed greatly to the societies where they lived. Yet, they continued their national attachments and prayed to return to Israel through centuries. In the first half of the 20th century there were major waves of immigration of Jews back to Israel from Arab countries and from Europe. During the British rule in Palestine, the Jewish people were subject to great violence and massacres directed by Arab civilians or forces of the neighboring Arab states. During World War II, the Nazi regime in Germany decimated about 6 million Jews creating the great tragedy of The Holocaust. In 1948, Jewish Community in Israel under the leadership of David Ben-Gurion reestablished sovereignty over their ancient homeland. Declaration of independence of the modern State of Israel was announced on the day that the last British forces left Israel (May 14, 1948). [b]Arab-Israeli wars[/b] A day after the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, armies of five Arab countries, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, invaded Israel. This marked the beginning of the War of Independence. Arab states have jointly waged four full scale wars against Israel: 1948 War of Independence 1956 Sinai War 1967 Six Day War 1973 Yom Kippur War Despite the numerical superiority of the Arab armies, Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured (see maps). This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel's willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew. Note that with Judea and Samaria Israel is only 40 miles wide. Thus, Israel can be crossed from the Mediterranean coast to the Eastern border at Jordan river within one hour of driving.[/quote] I personally don't see the whole argument of the land belonging to the Palestinians.. The Jews have been there since around 1,800 BC. The Palestinians haven't. If you want to get technical about it, then it belongs to Israel. I don't particularly care about the actions of either side at the moment, as to be perfectly honest they're both as bad as each other when it comes to war practices. Realistically, neither one is on a higher moral level. The Jews would say they follow God the correct way and so would the Muslims in Palestine, but hey, it's a very subjective thing. So ultimately, the only thing I can see to affect the issue is who the land actually belongs to.. and in my opinion, that would be the Jews.. I say that not just because Judaism is where Christianity came from, and in my opinion the biggest mistake the Jews made was not recognising Jesus as the Saviour, but heh. That's my opinion. The reason I say they own the land is because it's been their land since 1800 BC or something.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Medra [/i] [B]According to you, therefore, if eighty people have died from it, that means that the entire world's population is 2,000. Imagine that! I could have swore New Orleans alone had over two million people. Huh. [/B][/QUOTE] I think he was referring to the number it has killed out of the actual cases. Ie, people who actually had it.. I mean, come on.. people who've never had this thing can't have died from it, can they.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]Well then whats the friggin point of putting that in the bible or any religious book for that matter? It serves no point to put in rules that no one is expected to follow.[/B][/QUOTE] On that mindset, what's the point in society having laws if people go on breaking the rules all the time? Why don't we just [i]let[/i] people commit crimes instead? The thing is, we are expected to follow them, and we do believe (or rather, I take it that way) that it pains God to see us doing any differently. But at the same time, we can be forgiven for what we do wrong. It doesn't make it any more right, and we still have to face up to what we've done wrong, but ultimately there is forgiveness in there. If someone you cared for did something wrong against you, and was truly sorry, if it was what you consider as a forgivable act, you would forgive them for it, even if they had to make amends for what they did first. (I believe) It's the same with God, with the exceptions that: 1- God sees nothing as "unforgivable" 2- God knows whether you are [i]really[/i] sorry or if you're just putting on a show So yeah.. I know a lot of people don't follow the rules that the various religions give, and Christianity offers forgiveness for that (I can't speak for other religions cos I'm not in one, so I dunno whether they do or not), but it doesn't make the rules themselves pointless

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B]The Christian bible also makes remarks about this, and at one point tells Jews to go out and kill Muslims. Though I was unable to find this quote. I?ll keep looking. Eps ? Hmm facts? [/B][/QUOTE] The boks of the Christian Bible were decided on sometime around 90 AD, with a few additions known as "deuterocanonical" at around the fourth century AD. Islam started around 600 AD. So I highly doubt that there's a passage that tells us to kill Muslims, purely because they weren't around at the time (or rather the faith wasn't practiced.. I think Muslims believe that Islam has been around since creation or something, but not practiced until wmohammed started it.. or something like that) gokents said: "[b]With that in mind, it would be easy for us all to find a violent "anti-infadel" version of the quraan, just as well as a peace loving version.[/b]" You don't even need to have varying texts, I mean.. there are a fair amount of passages in the Bible (mostly in the Psalms) about God crushing the Jew's enemies and such.. I just choose to not pay any more attention to them as I would "love your enemy", but there are those who do.. ultimately if you look to religious texts to find justification for your own agenda, it can be quite easy to find. The problem is that those people don't look at all the other stuff that says their actions are wrong.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B]Deus: I meant that they believe in the same god, not the same religion. The books might be different, but it's all about the same god. For lack of a better analogy, Islam and Judaism are about as different as Backstreet Boys and NSync; both boybands were formed by the same person, their songs say the same things with different lyrics, and their fans don't like one another. [/B][/QUOTE] I agree with you in the fact that essentially they are the same thing, and apparently 90% of the Koran is actually the same as the Jewish scriptures.. and after posting that I actually looked around and read somewhere that Muslims claim to worship the same God as the Jews.. so yeah, I was wrong on that part. What I meant apart from that is that the Qu'ran was kind of a different version of the Torah, as opposed to them both being written at the same time.. I mean, it'd be different if they were both around at the same time, but Islam came about at around 500 AD, as opposed to Judaism which was around for a few thousand years before that, I think. bleh.. I know what I mean I'm just not sure how to say it.. [quote][b]http://www.origin-of-islam.com/ Origin of Islam: The Youngest of Major World Religions[/b] The origin of Islam can be traced to Muhammad in about 622 A.D. This relatively young religion claims to be the restoration of true monotheism started with Abraham, and thus, supersedes both Judaism and Christianity, which were allegedly corrupt and incomplete. Islam is based on absolute submission to the one "true" god, Allah . Muslims are called to conform to the "five pillars" (disciplines) of Islam in order to achieve eternal salvation. [b]Origin of Islam: Some Background[/b] The origin of Islam is credited to Muhammad, who lived between 570 and 632 A.D. He is believed by Muslims to be the last and greatest prophet of God ("the seal of the prophets"). It was through him that the Qur'an was dictated. Muhammad was born in Mecca, but he was chased from that city in about 622 A.D., after speaking out against the polytheism and paganism of the culture. He then established himself as a religious and military leader in Medina, and later returned in triumph to Mecca in about 630 A.D. From Mecca, Muhammad was instrumental in establishing Islam as the formal religion of all Arabia. For the Muslim, the Qur'an is the holy book of Islam and the true word of Allah. Muhammad claimed that the Qur'an comprised the preexistent and perfect words of Allah, dictated in Arabic by the angel Gabriel. Islam teaches that the Qur'an contains the complete and uncompromised revelation and will of Allah. The Qur'an is slightly shorter than the New Testament of the Bible and is divided into 114 "surahs" (chapters). Each surah represents an episodic vision received by Muhammad in the desert, which many Muslim historians have depicted as seizure-like events over many years. While Islam respects certain versions of the Jewish Torah (first five books of the Old Testament), the psalms of David, and the four gospels of the New Testament, the Qur'an is held alone as the religion's true authority. Islam teaches that the Qur'an is only truly understood in Arabic, and therefore, it has become a religious obligation to read and quote it in the original language. According to Islam, Allah cannot be known in a personal sense, but his will is perfectly revealed in the original Qur'an. [/quote] [quote]http://www.silcom.com/~origin/sbcr/judaism.htm Though often spoken of as a "Western" religion and linked with Christianity (as in "Judeo-Christian tradition"), Judaism has its origins in the Middle East. Judaism is a spirituality which indeed gave birth to Christianity, and later played a role during the emergence of Islam. But Judaism as we know it began almost 4,000 years ago among a pastoral/nomadic and later agricultural people, the ancient Hebrews.[/quote] (If anyone more knowledgeable wants to correct any of that feel free to do so)

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B]-Both sides seem to forget that the main reason they both regard the same land as "holy" is because they all worship the same god by 2 different names. Didn't I already say this? [/B][/QUOTE] Not really.. Despite the fact that a large amount of the Qu'ran is almost identical to the Old Testament, or the Jewish Torah, the two aren't actually the same. At the time that Muhammed started the Islamic religion, it was kind of an alternate to Judaism, which he claimed to be the "correct version" or something. Bleh.. my memory is very hazy at that point. The point is, from what I hear, a great deal of the Qu'ran is based on the Torah, but the Jews around at the time that it was written rejected it as being a load of rubbish (for lack of better description). I'd go further, but I'm not into pissing people off.. The point is, despite the many similarities, they aren't technically the same.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by REVENGE2 [/i] [B]The line between judgement, stupidity, and what we [i]should[/i] do is very, very blurry in mine eyes.[/B][/QUOTE] o_O.. I didn't think I could make it much clearer.. but heh.. What I meant was that to judge people is to say that they are bad people and are going to hell.. which is the wrong thing to do. On the other hand, to say that something immoral is alright, purely because we have no right to judge [i]people[/i] is also the wrong thing to do.. and is pretty stupid The right thing to do is to say that the person's actions are wrong, but without condemning them as a person. i.e., they [i]have[/i] done some bad stuff but no-one's condemning them for it.