Evolution

[Adahn]

First things first, I do NOT want this to become about religion. If you want to talk about religion, take it elsewhere. Just because you mention something does not mean its opposite has to be brought into the picture. Secondly, I don't want idiots to post. There's just something about stupid people that turns a good forum into a bad one. If you don't know what the hell you're talking about, don't post. Third, I want to discuss MACROEVOLUTION, which is not microevolution. If you don't know the difference, don't post.

Ok, now to the point. I don't like things that confuse me, and the concept of life having begun as it must have according to evolution boggles me. If you don't understand why something so simple could confuse ME, then thanks for the compliment, an I'll try to explain myself.

The most simple, living lifeforms are single-celled organisms. If you aren't exactly sure what makes up a cell, go back to school. A "simple" cell is made up of many complex organelles, including the nucleus, which contains DNA. None of the parts of a cell can work without another. There is no appendix, everything has a function. A cell missing any of its organelles would simply die.

I would like to know how the hell one of those "happened" from a [I]scientific[/I] viewpoint (notice how I didn't say religious). Essentially, there was a "cosmic pool" of elements an compounds, all churning around together. Then a cell suddenly "exists". Everything comes together precisely at the same time, creating a perfect cell capable of mitosis, with all the incredibly complex organelles functioning perfectly.

Okay now, we've got a cell. I can almost see that happening, evolutionists, and I won't even go into the probability of such an event occuring. Let's see, where were we? Oh, yes, a cell in a cosmic pool. I don't want to go through all of the elements and compounds that must be surrounding this one, living cell, but I'll assume that all the ones required to make it are in excess, and there are probably different elements and compounds than aren't required to make a cell, but are there as products of the thousands of chemical reactions that occurred instantly. These excess chemicals immediately leave the cell due to a random environmental occurance, because most of them would kill any such cell. At the same time, elements and compounds required for cellular respiration come in contact with the cell in not too large or small doses so that it can divide and develop.

Next, it survives the cataclysmic birth of the planet, which is always described by scientists as having much to do with tectonic shifting, volcanoes, deadly gases, and explosions. It then undergoes mutations, which in almost every case kill the organism that undergoes them, which happen to be beneficial to the cell. Then you get your whole classic evolution chart that traces us to fish and monkeys and whatnot. I'm not going to say that it's impossible, but the probability is what boggles me. I haven't even mentioned the exact positioning of the suns, planets, and moons in our solar system, which would allow for such an occurrance to happen in the first place.

If I'm horribly mistaken, and there is another scientific explanation for the origin of life, I would LOVE to hear them. It truly would put my heart to rest to know the truth. I'm all for learning. Also, if you take what I've written to be generally true for what conditions must have allowed life to exist, I'd like to know how you can not only believe in it, but take it as absolute scientific fact. I'll repeat myself here, NO RELIGION. I don't want this thread closed, because I really would like to know what intelligent people think.

[stardust]

I believe in evolution,actually,it's pretty near a proven fact. Since animals adapt to respond to their environment. It's a lot to think about.

[Justin]

I'm sorry, but if you want someone to say they do or do not believe in something, for the sake of conversation, you have to let them state why they believe what they do.

Now, on to my opinion. I believe in micro-evolution, yes. You can't dispute it's existance. Proof of it is easy to see: ie. I am adjuted to hot, humid weather, because I am from the American South. However, my good friend, Jenna, is from the American North, and she, no doubt is more suited to cold climates.

I do not believe in evolution outside intellignt design. Why? Because I've been given the gift of the Holy Spirit, frankly. Beyond that, intelligent design is more logical than the spontaneous formation of the universe.

Once more, you cannot discuss whether someone believes in something like this or not without letting them say why. Otherwise, there is no discussion--only the boring statements of 'yes' or 'no'.

-Justin

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stardust [/i]
[B]I believe in evolution,actually,it's pretty near a proven fact. Since animals adapt to respond to their environment. It's a lot to think about. [/B][/QUOTE]

Proven ?... *wide evil grin*:devil:

Well it seems obvious that you don't understand the mechanics of natural selection, so I'll explain them for future reference on this thread.

Let's say , hypothetically, that macroevolution is real.. hehe. Well, first the organism must have a RANDOM genetic mutation. According to the laws of Natural Selection, the mutation could be GOOD or BAD. If it is a good mutation, it supposedly helps a creature survive long enough to reproduce and pass on the trait. Eventually all the organisms with the recessive trait either die off, and the species moves forward. Or, the trait breaks it into a new species

I must be going now. I'll post why evolution is nearly impossible... not so easily explainable as before.

[James]

[color=#707875]Well, once again, we know that evolution exists. Or, "Micro-Evolution", as you might want to call it.

We know that, for example, a species changes from generation to generation. It's a gradual change. This is one reason why mankind has sexual reproduction -- genes are passed on to the next generation, who are an improvement on their predecessors in various ways. And so it continues.

You'll notice, for example, that if you look at some of the older European cities...the streets and doorways were much smaller than what you'd see in the world today. This is also evidence of human evolution, albeit on a smaller scale.

In terms of the creation of the Earth...science can prove the age of the Earth and the evolutionary path of life on the planet. We do know that the number of species has grown over millions of years, as a result of genetic divergence (for lack of a better term).

That's why, when you look at DNA, you see massive correlations between human beings and other primates. And that's why human beings are themselves a type of primate.

In terms of how Earth was created in the very beginning...I don't know. Nobody really knows. Nobody was there. lol

I guess that's the trite/pointless answer though.

In reality, most societies have had an explanation of the Earth's creation in some form or another. Most of these come about as a result of religion. And you'll find that there are literally thousands of different religions around the world (and thus, thousands of different explanations of Earth's original creation).

Frankly, I find all of these ideas implausible for various reasons. For one thing, many of them simply contradict known scientific facts. For another, most are extremely simple explanations, which seem to be an obvious creation of mankind, at a time when he knew little about the world around him. Remember; most religious explanations for Earth's creation were written thousands of years ago. And it has only been within the last 100-200 years that man has really begun to learn a great deal about the planet in general.

So, that's my viewpoint. I don't know how the Earth was created, but I don't think anybody does. Science certainly has theories, but that's all. The reason I value science, though, is because it can always change based on new evidence and information -- religion can't. Rather than conform facts and history into a pre-determined point of view, I would rather sit there with a blank slate and attain knowledge as a result of exploration and research.

But everyone's different in terms of how they approach the situation.[/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

It's not nearly impossible...

Evolution doesn't happen to everything. It doesn't go "ok, this species gets a possitive evolution, this one gets a negative".... The term evolution nearly means a possitive growth... It's a pick and choose sort of thing. It doesn't happen to everything.

Evolution (n.) A gradual process in which something changes into a [b]different and usually more complex or [u]better[/u][/b] form.

Mutation (n.) The act or process of being altered or changed.

While they are similar, mutation, I tend to think, is something that happens much faster. (Ie: If I pour toxic chemicals on you, it would mutate your cells, not evolve them.)

Evolution has happened.... Some elephants used to be the size of horses. Horses used to be the size of your left foot. Dragonflys used to be 20 times the size they are now. If you don't believe me, look it up. Human skull shave significantlt changed shape as we've grown over the last 2 million years. These are examples of evolution. They aren't quite as big as evolutioon from ape to man... which I guess is what you mean by macro-evolution.... evolving from one species to the next step (ie: another species)

Whether you believe in the evolution from ape to man, there's simply no doubt that apes and humans are very similar to each other and that we are probably related somewhere down the line, wherever that may be.

And being accustomed to heat or cold isn't micro-evolution... thats adaptation... something a little different from evolution. Usually has to do with your environment. (ie: wheather)

[Zen]

What i'm confused by is if Chimpanzees were around since the first humans, why havn't they evolved? Well, no matter. Yes i beleive in evolution and i'm sure humanity will evolve again eventually. But i still beleive in christianity becuase those apes that we came from could have been created in purpopse to eventually create humanity. Like a baby into an adult. Get what i'm sayin'?

[James]

[color=#707875]Because Chimpanzees probably weren't around. Chimpanzees and every other primate are a bi-product of shared ancestors.

When people say that monkeys evolved into man, they are actually making it sound like a monkey turned into a man overnight.

Actually, it's simply a matter of modern primates sharing common ancestors to humans. If you put a "monkey" at one end of the scale and a human at the other, you would have thousands or hundreds of thousands of species in between. That's why fossils of various prehistoric humans have been discovered and that's also why these fossils have been put into an evolutionary order.[/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Double_B_Daigo [/i]
[B]What i'm confused by is if Chimpanzees were around since the first humans, why havn't they evolved? [/B][/QUOTE]

Because like I said.... evolution doesn't happen to everything. Sharks and Crocodiles have been around for 65 million years+, yet they haven't evolved to a far extent.

[Zen]

they have become smaller and probably more intellegent to make up for it. Crocs used to be the size of present day sharks and sharks used to be like half the size of a blue whale or somethin'. I think.....Am i correct?

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Double_B_Daigo [/i]
[B]they have become smaller and probably more intellegent to make up for it. Crocs used to be the size of present day sharks and sharks used to be like half the size of a blue whale or somethin'. I think.....Am i correct? [/B][/QUOTE]

Crocs were slightly bigger back then, but not much. And Sharks were never the size of Blue Whales as far as I know... thats awefully large lol.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]Because like I said.... evolution doesn't happen to everything. Sharks and Crocodiles have been around for 65 million years+, yet they haven't evolved to a far extent. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]But also, think about the variety of shark species. There were obviously less species 65+ million years ago. So, evolution works in that way as well.[/color]

[Zen]

Well, you also have to think aobut he fact that evolution has to do a great deal with adaption with the natural surroundings. thats why there are different species. Why do you think inuits (eskimos to the uneducated) are able to live off of raw meat. Cuz they can't cook it, so there bodies adapted. Same with all anima's in the world. (I AM NOT SAYING INUITS ARE ANIMALS!) So, that plays a major factor in the evoltution of animals.

[Mitch]

[size=1] I believe in some cases that things can be [i]bent[/i]. Evolution is another recognition of this observation. And you can't deny the evidence uncovered so far, even if you believe otherwise; but that's not what this topic is about, so on with the show.

I am not too educated on this topic--not strenuously--but what I learned from Biology I have learned. But looking at this from a faraway arc, this is things, over long periods of time, changing into something better than they once were.

Darwin's theory of Natural Selection is one of the most beautiful theories I have seen...and I wouldn't even call it much of a theory any longer. It's pretty much easy to see.

Survival of the fittest is seen all over. In economics, Darwinists are those that belive in the surviving of the fittest. And history shows most of this...showing Rockafeller and his Stand Oil Company either crushing his competitors or buying them out like little toys.

It's even happening today.

So that said, it's obviously factual, in some part, what evolution has showed. And sometimes things just happen. I myself don't boggle myself with probablities and "how this could happens," but much rather, I see that it has happened. What's the point of knowing the probabilities when it's happened anyways? It doesn't help anything, really. More or less just shows that things...as unlikely as they can be...happen.

As I said, I believe that things can be bent. I believe that eventually we will reach a point in our scientific studies where we somehow see this...and realize it, in some fashion. Just look at the laws of physics...I recall one thing that states something being an unanswered paradox of two objects being some distance apart in space...released in opposite ends at the same times...yet still not having the same something or other. I don't know. It mostly escapes me.

But whatever got us to where we are...it is hard to say. And when we do know enough to be able to mimic this very essence, this very thing that got us to what we are, then..that will be scary. We'll be like gods, being able to mess with nature's beautiful art.[/size]

[Zen]

Your correct with your strongest survive theory. But lets be careful not to say that the strongest body survives. Strong mind is why the human race is atthe top of the food chain. And strong mind is how the mantis kills the stag beetles. Its because they know how to use what they have to perfect there weaknesses. Thats why most animals are now smaller than they were before, becuase they no longer need there large bodies in trade for a stronger mind.

PS- Not even 200 years ago, Boston Lobsters grew to be the size of men. There were Lobsters recorded to be 6 foot tall and up. Thats shows that evolution can also be triggered by the accurance of natural events, naemly the populaizationing of america by the europeans.

(imagine how scary it must be to fear being killed by a lobster. There already creepy enough at 1 foot tall.....*shutter*)

[Adahn]

So far, only James has even mentioned what my post, and this thread, were originally about. I want to know what people think about the origin of life. You all start at monkeys, I want to know how the cell came to be. It's really all about the basics. Re-read my first post, and see if you can guess the focus. If you can't even address the origin of life itself, then you shouldn't be able to assume evolution is even close to truth. I have little time, so I may be rambling, but please, talk to me about the very beginning of life, and how you think it was possible from an evolutionary standpoint.

[James]

[color=#707875]Well, as far as I know, evolution itself doesn't refer to the process of life's first creation. Generally, evolution relates to the development of life over any given period.

I think that people often make a mistake when they think that evolution contradicts God or religion. Really, it doesn't. In some ways it does debunk religious texts (in terms of the world's age and so forth), but generally speaking, I think you can comply with the facts of science and still be a person of great faith. You'll find that there are quite a few scientists who study evolution, who are also highly religious people.

In terms of life's origin, I don't know. I don't even know where to start. There are, of course, various theories about the Universe as a whole and there are some indications as to the Earth's formation. But I'm not very learned on them, myself.

Although, I do wonder what will happen if we one day discover life (or evidence of prehistoric life) on other planets. That would certainly turn a few long-held ideas on their head.[/color]

[FartMaster745]

[size=1]Hmm... Its strange. Atoms. Non-living things(supposedly though). Making something up with free will, life(Heh, I think I've found the meaning of life in my own words. Free will.) Forget about that, back to the topic

Anywayz, its very hard to understand how the first-single celled organisms came about. We only have a piece of of the whole picture. Obviously there is something that we don't understand or not yet have thought about to be able to understand how this, life, has came about.

To me it has to have been started by something. Single-celled organisms came about. Then grew and evolved into multi-celled organisms. Everything has to start somewhere. We are all made of cells, the building blocks of all living things. Cells are made of atoms, the building blocks of everything. So I'm thinking that something has to have happened to the atoms, most likely a chemical reaction that has made the nucleus of the organism.

The thing I don't understand is how did this living thing survive? How did it gain enough knowledge to survive on its own?

If the Big-Bang theory is true, then it is possible that life, or free will if you will, has started then. Then by some extreme luck some of that free willed thing traveled to Earth and the conditions were just right for it to thrive and live.

Heh, I think my post makes no sense, but ohzwellz...[/size]

[Mitch]

[size=1] Exactly what James said...Evolution isn't about "how life began," it is moreso about changes happening to organisms over years and years bringing about a better change. Evolution doesn't root its weed in the creation of things...it merely catalyizes from that, and melds what was first given into something greater.

As far as I see it...life obviously began in water somehow, from what I can remember of my studies last year. I believe it was in gas bubbles? or something of the sort? Not sure. Anyways, first one-celled organisms came to being by things somehow going right...or [i]bending[/i] right, and from there on out, we have what we have.

It's really hard to say...this is asking something that obviously no one knows the answer to. No one will give you a clear-cut answer at all. This is like asking someone to tell you what happens after you die; no one knows.

It's obvious to see from the fossil record that the farther back in time you go, then less sophisticated organisms you will find. So thus, the further shows the point that life began from evolution...and that most likely there were only small, one-celled organisms during the very beginning.

It definitely was some time before life came, though. As the Earth was first born, it was alive with magma, lava, and fire as far as I can seem to remember...this led to excess amounts of carbon monoxide and gases of that nature, which left little room for any oxygen, which, obviously, is what we breathe. It would be interesting to know if we had evolved in that, though...and breathe carbon monoxide, or something of that like, if it's possible to think so. But really...that's what plants do, isn't it? Isn't it interesting to see that plants do that, thereby giving there enough oxygen in the air, well, at least for all the many humans we have on this Earth now? I certainly I find that interesting.

One the planet finally settled down, then it's obvious to see something happened...or was bent, and as I said, life was born as a little cell. I am not sure if it was an instantenous thing...or if, in the beginning, it was only one cell. But there was something...somehow the Earth's nature did things just the way they should be, and bent enough make something such as what we have now.

That's about as much as I could say on what you want.[/size]

[DeathBug]

Whenever people speak about evolution, I love to point out the common bat.

Now, we all know that the bat has an advanced system of navigation known as sonar, which bounces high pitched sound-waves off of objects, then judges the size and shape of them by the echo they recieve back.

The sonar system in bats comprises several different, and very precise, sets of organs.

However, if evolution is simply a collection of randomly sucessful mutations, what are the odds that one species of nocturnal lying rodent just [i]happened[/i] to be born as a mutation that came complete with a full sound-based navigation system?

Don't get me wrong; I think the theories of evolution, mutation, natural selection and all are very valid. Niether do I believe that any of it directly conflicts with my own religious beliefs.

However, though they might be on the right track, those theories can't explain [b]everything[/b], at least not yet.

[Vash's girl]

Don't bring up religion? For me, evolution can't be brought up without evolution. Evolution is stupid and it does not exist. I don't wanna start fight or a debate. There is basically no proof of evolution. It's all circular reasoning. God created all things and that's the way it is! End of subject.

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vash's girl [/i]
[B]Don't bring up religion? For me, evolution can't be brought up without evolution. Evolution is stupid and it does not exist. I don't wanna start fight or a debate. There is basically no proof of evolution. It's all circular reasoning. God created all things and that's the way it is! End of subject. [/B][/QUOTE]

I consider myself a Christian, and I don't see how the evolutionary theory and the beliefs of Christianty must *always* conflict.

Who's to say that evolution isn't an act of God, so He doesn't have to watch over all the species in the Universe every single second of the day?

[Vash's girl]

christianity and evolution are two very different things. There is no way that evolution can agree with christianity

[terra]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Adahn [/i]
I would like to know how the hell one of those "happened" from a [I]scientific[/I] viewpoint (notice how I didn't say religious). Essentially, there was a "cosmic pool" of elements an compounds, all churning around together. Then a cell suddenly "exists". Everything comes together precisely at the same time, creating a perfect cell capable of mitosis, with all the incredibly complex organelles functioning perfectly.[/quote]
Let's see *digs out what she learned in biochemistry last year*. There's been an experiment done in which the four gases postulated to be necessary for life (CH3, water vapor, ammonia, and hydrogen gas, if anyone cared) were put into a container and provided with energy (UV, or a spark, or whatever). It formed this black gunk, and within the gunk they discovered amino acids, which are the basic building blocks of proteins, and the things that probably made up the first cell. I guess what this means is that provided those things were on Earth and were given some form of energy (from the sun perhaps), it's very possible from that formed the first amino acids and from there, the first cell.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Adahn [/i]
Next, it survives the cataclysmic birth of the planet, which is always described by scientists as having much to do with tectonic shifting, volcanoes, deadly gases, and explosions.[/quote]
I always thought the first cell was thought to have formed [i]after[/i] this birth of the planet ... Not sure on that. It seems to make more sense to me, though, since it's after those explosions that things started "settling down" on Earth and becoming the atmosphere that we can live in, i.e. having ammonia and whatever.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Adahn [/i]
I'm not going to say that it's impossible, but the probability is what boggles me.[/quote]
That's what's always puzzled me about evolution as well. I used to be a Christian, and be more on the side of a God-shaped evolution, but now that I'm not quite one anymore I don't quite know what to believe :p. (Oh, and sorry for bringing in religion, but as others have already said, it's pretty difficult to have a discussion about evolution and try to completely cut religion out of it.) In the end, my stance on the beginning of the world always ends up being that I'm really not sure what to believe on it.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James[/i]
Although, I do wonder what will happen if we one day discover life (or evidence of prehistoric life) on other planets. That would certainly turn a few long-held ideas on their head.[/quote]
Indeed. Although I suppose it would just confirm other long-held ideas as well. There are tons of planets out there and people are always saying that there's a possibility of other life out there. (Which reminds me of a very interesting topic ... but way off-topic from this so maybe I'll post a thread on it sometime instead ...)

[John]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FartMaster745 [/i]
[B][size=1]If the Big-Bang theory is true, then it is possible that life, or free will if you will, has started then. Then by some extreme luck some of that free willed thing traveled to Earth and the conditions were just right for it to thrive and live.[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

I, christian though I am, can see why most people believe in evolution. How they got the idea of the Big Bang Theory, however, completely escapes me. As I understand it, it's presumed that the thing that caused the Big Bang (called the Cosmic Egg) (which brings up those never-ending questions about the Cosmic Chicken) was made up primarily of oxygen and nitrogen (or hydrogen or something...) and it somehow randomly exploded after sitting there doing nothing for ages (guess it got bored). But that part doesn't raise as many questions as this: if it's true about the cosmic egg, then oxygen and nitrogen (or hydrogen or something and a few other elements), if left alone for a long period of time....................will turn into a human. Yeeeeahhh, smart thunkin' on the scientists' part.