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[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']So successful they had to abandon it. Miyamoto is releasing the upcoming Zelda due to demand from fans! He basically said it himself that they wanted the grown up realistic Link back. Sure, Miyamoto delivered in terms of gameplay and level design, as he always does, but Wind Waker was *less* for his character design and ultimately I think he realized that.[/quote]
Character design is not what was changed. The [B]graphic style[/B] is what changed.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']It is extreme, but it is not blindly irrational. I can understand it, in fact, because to me character design is paramount. If I don't like who I am playing as, I will dislike the game experience as a result. That is part of the reason I didn't like Metroid Prime (I hate Samus Aran). Seeing as the Wind Waker art style is what drove the character design to a degree, I can see blaming it for the issue.[/quote]
I don't know what you're getting at. For the vast majority of MP, you don't even [I]see[/I] Samus.

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]I disagree. Appreciating something means liking it to at least some degree and acknowledging that. If you can't bring yourself to like a game because it is painful to look at, then nobody should expect you to show appreciation for it. I can dismiss an entire game based on its visuals. I did that with Animal Crossing. The graphics killed it for me. I do the same with 90% of racing games that don't look as good as, say, PGR2 or Forza Motorsport. Visual appeal is not something that can be taken so lightly for many people. Graphics can sell a game, they can also do the opposite. Wind Waker did some things very *right* visually, but it did some things very *wrong* and hatred from some fans is the price it paid.
[/QUOTE]
Wind waker was a success, you moron. You obviously don't play anything besides up to the date. Graphics don't sell a game anymore. Let's look at a prime example:Super mario bros 3. It wasn't much better looking than 1 or 2. But since it was fun, it went on to be the best selling game of all time. So what if a game doesn't look like PGR2. I played Enduro today. I have no Idea what the hell my car is. But it was fun. And that's all that matters. Did you buy Dead or alive volleyball? The graphics were awesome, Sciros.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Sure, Miyamoto delivered in terms of gameplay and level design...[/quote]
What's the problem?

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']By the way, it's true that Wind Waker sold relatively well. But I think it would have sold far far better if it did not look the way it did (particularly Link, who really was the center of attention in the screenshots that annoyed people). Ocarina sold really fricking well, much better than Wind Waker. I think visuals made some of that difference.[/quote]
1-5 copies max. OOT was the first 3-d zelda, and it was better and more fun than wind waker. That is why it sold well.

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Guest ScirosDarkblade
[quote name='Morpheus]Character design is not what was changed. The [B]graphic style[/B'] is what changed.[/quote]
Character design did change. Link looked significantly different. Can't you tell a difference between, say, Link in the Gameboy LttP and Link in the Gameboy Four Swords? One is old Link, the other is more of a WW Link. Different designs.

[QUOTE]I don't know what you're getting at. For the vast majority of MP, you don't even [I]see[/I] Samus.[/QUOTE]
First of all, you see Samus more than enough (certainly more than you see Master Chief in Halo, seeing as the game shifts to 3rd person when go to morph ball), and secondly it's about playing AS the character. Even if you don't always see him/her, if you know the character looks like arse you're gonna like playing as him/her less. At least such is the case for me.

[QUOTE]Wind waker was a success, you moron. You obviously don't play anything besides up to the date. Graphics don't sell a game anymore. Let's look at a prime example:Super mario bros 3. It wasn't much better looking than 1 or 2. But since it was fun, it went on to be the best selling game of all time. So what if a game doesn't look like PGR2. I played Enduro today. I have no Idea what the hell my car is. But it was fun. And that's all that matters. Did you buy Dead or alive volleyball? The graphics were awesome, Sciros.[/QUOTE]
Yes Morpheus you're very smart. You win. I guess I only play games that are up-to-date, haha.
Ok where to start...
First of all, I've played a LOT of games over a long period of time. I'm not an Xbox fanboy or whatever you take me for.
Second, Super Mario Bros. is the best selling game of all time. Followed by Tetris, then followed by SMB3. And that example doesn't prove anything, because the game sold when it was released, not in competition with FFX or Ninja Gaiden.
Third, graphics do sell a game. Ever heard of a little title known as, um, what was it? Oh, right, DOOM 3. Yeah that game is the paragon of game design, I mean it has guns and a flashlight and stuff. If it looked like *** it's still be a blockbuster title, no doubt about that.

[QUOTE]1-5 copies max. OOT was the first 3-d zelda, and it was better and more fun than wind waker. That is why it sold well.[/QUOTE]
We'll see about the 1-5 when we compare sales of this upcoming GCN Zelda to The Wind Waker. Better and more fun doesn't necessarily sell more copies and everyone knows it. A neanderthal would know that Wind Waker's visual design hurt its sales.

Morpheus, honestly, just stay out of this altogether. I have no idea what prompted you to try and respond to my posts, but you clearly went into stupid mode before doing it. Usually I have no beef with you, but here you're trying to get on my case and on top of that you're being quite aggressive. But I'll entertain you, bring it on.

Thinking about it some more, I predict this upcoming Zelda to outsell Wind Waker by at least 500,000 copies (not necessarily much more than that). It really ought to, with proper marketing, crack the 2 million mark where Wind Waker did 1.5 million or thereabouts.

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[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Look at the instruction manuals for the old Zeldas and see if you can really agree with what you said up there. Wind Waker didn't take us "back" anywhere. It was a total overhaul of the Link character visually. If you think that Wind Waker follows in the "specific kind of art style" that you find in the old Zelda games, then you're way off. Ocarina is closer, in fact.[/quote]Bull.

[url="http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3"][u]Original NES LoZ manual illustrations[/u][/url]

[url="http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=14"][u]Original NES LoZ Official Art[/u][/url]

[url="http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=70&pos=6"][u]OoT Official Art[/u][/url]

[url="http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=165"][u]WindWaker Official Art[/u][/url]

In [i]both[/i] the Original NES LoZ and WindWaker official art, I'm not seeing [i]any[/i] of the muscle definition, mature features, or generally, anything remotely resembling the art direction taken in the OoT artwork, apart from the usual green tunic, and even then, the OoT tunic is radically different, stylistically, from LoZ and WW.

The illustrations in the manual to LoZ were cartoons--full-fledged Saturday morning cartoon characters, only non-animated. The OoT art direction was not, as is shown by the manual scans, concept art provided, and [url="http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=74&pos=17"][u]this[/u][/url]. Who are you trying to fool here, Dmitry? lol

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[color=#811C3A]Also, instruction manuals are slightly different to in-game visuals. Look at the bushes in LttP and compare them to the bushes in TWW. Identical. Also compare the colour palette and costume design, etc...

So yeah, for me, TWW had more of a "this is Zelda" feel than the other two 3D games. But that doesn't mean it was the best game for me -- I definitely enjoyed OoT and MM a lot more. Majora's Mask is probably my favourite Zelda game of all time, closely followed by A Link to the Past.

But also, let me say this one more time...I'm not talking about the Link model specifically. I am talking about the overall aesthetic design. The Link model is really just a matter of taste and it's not particularly relevant to what I've been saying (other than my comment that dismissing an entire game based on the model is highly immature -- nobody here is doing that from what I can see, but there are those who do).[/color]

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Sciros, SMB3 was up against 2 more powerful systems(Turbo grafx and genesis) and still managed to be a best seller. Why does a character model affect the game so much? Billy hatcher was fun(though I didn't buy it)but the character sucked.

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Guest Boomerang Snake
[SIZE=2][FONT=Palatino Linotype][COLOR=Red]I am really looking forward to it coming out..i think it's going to be great. I mean, wind waker was really good, and it was a fun change from the style of majora's mask and ocarina of time, but i must say that i am really glad they've gone back to make the new zelda in that style again. I think zelda is probably the best game ninetndo has in my opinion, dont get me wrong they have a lot of other great games like the mario karts, and i'm a big fan of the mario parties (they're just so much fun to play no matter how old or young you are)
AAANNNYYYWAY.....i've just been hanging out for this game since i heard wind of it, so i'm all psyched out for it's release, i think it's going to be great![/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

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Guest ScirosDarkblade
[quote name='Siren]In [i]both[/i] the Original NES LoZ and WindWaker official art, I'm not seeing [i]any[/i'] of the muscle definition, mature features, or generally, anything remotely resembling the art direction taken in the OoT artwork, apart from the usual green tunic, and even then, the OoT tunic is radically different, stylistically, from LoZ and WW.[/quote]
The original Zelda is quite far from EITHER WW or OoT. I don't think you could put those three Links side by side and see a whole lot of anything. But I'm talking about the previous Zeldas collectively. Including Zelda II and more importantly LttP. Look at your LttP manual, and you will see a Link that very closely resembles the Ocarina Link. Indeed, the transition from LttP to Ocarina was rather minimal aesthetically.

I am not trying to fool anyone, Alex. But I know my way around artistic design, and to say that Wind Waker somehow brought Zelda back to something more "traditional" to it is completely incorrect from an aesthetic point of view.

Interestingly there WAS a Legend of Zelda cartoon back in the day. And it was much closer in terms of looks to a Zelda OTHER than Wind Waker. (In terms of everything other than looks, well, it was something else altogether.)

---
Morpheus you CAN'T tell me that character design doesn't matter. And you certainly can't say that to Nintendo. Ever heard of Mario, Link, and Pikachu? Nintendo is a fricking monument to successful [b]character design[/b]. They know it matters. You for some reason don't.

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[color=#811C3A]I think we have to clearly define whether we're talking about LINK or the overall aesthetic design.

There's no doubt that the overall aesthetic design is harking back to LttP and the older generation of games, which had that Saturday morning cartoon-esque look about 'em.

Link himself looks quite different, except for his costume (which is absolutely a re-hash or a pointer to older designs, pre-OoT).[/color]

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[size=1][color=royalblue]Alright, I'm getting rather tired of hearing TWW and TLoZ graphic comparisons. Every Zelda game has had its goods and bads (in their own time eras).

I agree that Link's/TWW's vibrant colors nearly made my eyes pop like zits (and there wasn't much texture on Link, which made it worse), but I'm not going to dismiss the Link model and/or the game just because I don't like it as much as OoT's.

Moving on, TLoZ will be a must-buy for me (well, as with every other Zelda title lol). Actually it already is. I just hope the graphics aren't as monotonously realistic as Morrowind's. Realistic does not mean "less color". In fact, environmental effects and whatnot contribute profoundly to the experience more than graphics in my opinion. I'm not saying that graphics should be shoved into the backseat while gameplay and whatnot take to the wheel...it just doesn't need to be so drab in color and texture.[/color][/size]

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Guest ScirosDarkblade
Well whatever. I'll just have to remember never to discuss visual design with anyone on here again. It's a question of seeing things and I guess we don't see the same things at all. I'll drop the topic because it's going nowhere.

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[color=#811C3A]Well, c'mon now...let's not pout. lol

I had said that I was a bit disappointed that Nintendo buckled under the pressure so soon. You said that they deserved to because their design with TWW was awful.

I said that the design had great merit and was generally appreciated. And then you said you were not referring to the overall aesthetic design, but instead to the Link character model itself. I only half-heartedly agree with you on that (as I said, I would have liked to see a different model, I don't think that Link's eyes and their purpose was fleshed out enough to justify their inclusion). However, the difference with me is that I didn't want to kick Nintendo to the curb for trying something new. For the most part, design in TWW was a success. Some things (like the Link model) were annoyances. It just comes down to a difference in approach -- I'm not willing to let little things like that justify an approach to game design that takes no risks.

I understand that other people have a different view, which is fine. I'm just relating this to my original point about the new Legend of Zelda.[/color]

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To add a quick point, I find much of the hatin' of the WW Link face to be pretty much absurd to begin with, for a few reasons.

One, in my mind, and I think in the minds of pretty much everyone who ever paid attention when they were playing LttP, LoZ, etc, the series has always been more lighthearted and goofy. I mean, even just looking at LttP exclusively, it's rife with Saturday morning, Looney Tunes-esque material.

From Link's death sequence (the fall, the sound he makes, etc), to the enemy soldiers' reactions (if you look closely enough, there are sweatdrops that appear), and even to the comical way that characters act (Link's Dash attack, for example...he charges it up before zipping along...that's [i]classic[/i] Looney Tunes)...it's always been about what if Bugs Bunny were to do an RPG/action hybrid.

This Looney Tunes-esque-ness is pretty much non-existent in OoT, and then when it returns in WW, both in terms of the art itself, character action, and the facial expressions, people complain. "It violates the Link character design," they say, but what they fail to realize is...it's actually closer to the idea of the series...lighthearted and goofy fun.

Two, somewhat related to the lighthearted and goofy nature of the series, it's always been a series about a child's adventure. I mean, there's a reason the series is almost "kiddy" in its presentation...because the series is about a young boy going out adventuring.

Because of this, the facial "look" of WW Link actually makes more sense within the context of the series, because how many kids do we know that [i]don't[/i] look around? How many kids do we know whose eyes are stuck half-closed, or whose pupils stay in the center of their eyes? How many kids do we know whose eyes don't almost sparkle?

WW Link's facial expressions, and most importantly, the eyes, are those of a real kid's, albeit a bit exaggerated, just like LttP and LoZ.

When you think about it...OoT is really the extreme variation of the series, and WW is almost its redemption, in a sense.

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Has anyone else heard about the preorder deal for this game beginning the first day of April, in which those who put ten dollars down will receive a bonus disc that features a visually remade version of [I]The Wind Waker[/I]? The engine has been converted to the new, "serious" style. According to EGM, it will also include two full-length dungeons that were cut from the original.

On the positive side, I'm anxious to go through the dungeons because I felt that the original game was quite short. Also, I'm sure that many gamers will "eat crow" once they give the game a chance now that it has adopted their precious conventional style. They'll realize what they've been ignoring all along is a truly awesome Zelda game underneath its childish surface.

However, judging from the screen shot that I've seen, I think the visuals look somewhat ugly and significantly out of place in this context. I wonder how particularly cartoony characters, such as Tingle, will fair in the conversion. The light-hearted, and vibrant art style was just so imbedded in everything from the dungeons to the ocean itself. It's hard to imagine everything in a bleaker coat of paint. Plus, by making such a move, it's as if Nintendo is further admitting that they had made a mistake in choosing [I]The Wind Waker's[/I] artistic direction and are now trying to make amends for it.

Ah well, it's a cool extra to say the least, but it also annoys me somewhat.

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Hold up, now, Charles. The first day of April? EGM?

Tell me you checked up on this claim elsewhere. lol The whole thing is just so wild to believe in the first place.

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[QUOTE=Syk3]Hold up, now, Charles. The first day of April? EGM?

Tell me you checked up on this claim elsewhere. lol The whole thing is just so wild to believe in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Haha. I wanted to at least get a discussion going for a little while. I was debating on whether or to include the subtle EGM allusion. Probably shouldn't have. :animesmil

You know, it has me tempted to at least call Gamespot though to confirm this. It's not as if it's such a hard April Fool's joke to test, unlike their old Resident Evil 2 Akuma joke.

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This game looks amazing to me. But a problem with playing Zelda games is that you don't want it to end *lol*
But there something i keep wondering about, will it be better than OOT?
who knows.

Anyway i found this convo from E3.
I've done it as a spoiler just incase:

[spoiler][B]Q: In the trailer that we saw yesterday, a lot of areas looked very familiar to Ocarina of Time. We saw a castle and Link rode Epona. He might have been in the Lost Woods. Is Link going back to Hyrule and is this now the true sequel to Ocarina of Time? [/B]

Eiji Aonuma: How do you know that horse was Epona [smiles]? Unfortunately I cannot reveal all of that at this point in time. Please wait a little while longer.

[B]Q: The graphics in the game are beautiful. Will the game feature high production values throughout? To be more specific, will we see detailed cinematics, major story developments and will characters speak with acted voices?[/B]

Shigeru Miyamoto: I actually don't want Link to talk very much. Maybe I'll record my own voice for when he talks, or maybe you can record your own voice [laughs].[/spoiler]

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[QUOTE=Charles]Haha. I wanted to at least get a discussion going for a little while. I was debating on whether or to include the subtle EGM allusion. Probably shouldn't have. :animesmil

You know, it has me tempted to at least call Gamespot though to confirm this. It's not as if it's such a hard April Fool's joke to test, unlike their old Resident Evil 2 Akuma joke.[/QUOTE]

I think most people know it's an April Fools joke by now, if they didn't in the first place. Every site it's been posted on shot it down in about three seconds. I don't think people fall for these magazine jokes anymore, since they happen every single year.

It's a really terrible photoshop, I think lol.

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Seems like there are alot of opinions on different Zelda games. I'm really looking foward to the newest game coming out. I have to admit, I was one of the one's dissapointed in the new look for Wind Waker. Yet I love the Zelda series so much I bought it anyway and to my surprise, even though I prefered the previous style of graphics, I really enjoyed playing the game. I'm glad they are switching back to the previous style, yet if they hadn't I'm sure I would buy another version done in the cel shading format. I think on some level, regardless of what Nintendo did there would always be someone upset with how the newest game was done. Although I love Ocarina of Time and other Zelda games, the Wind Waker cel shading style did deal with some of the some graphic problems and errors the other games had. For example, being able to freely shift your view and the characters were more complete. It always struck me as odd to see that Link's legs and tunic had space between them. It was very noticable for some activities in the Ocarina of Time. *Ducks to avoid being smacked* Don't get me wrong though. I never expect games to be perfect and it's still one of my favirote Zelda games. Although I think good graphics are important I'll still buy a game if the story is entertaining, even if the graphics aren't very good. On the other side even if the graphics are great I won't buy a game with a poor story line. I don't want to offend so I won't mention the games I'm reffering too.

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Guest Dark Pyro
[COLOR=DarkRed]i have a quick question about the new zelda game[/COLOR] what system is it for and when is it coming out? because from what you guys say is sound really cool.

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[quote name='Dark Pyro][COLOR=DarkRed]i have a quick question about the new zelda game[/COLOR'] what system is it for and when is it coming out? because from what you guys say is sound really cool.[/quote]
It's for the GameCube, but other than saying it will be released in 2005 nintendo hasn't given a specific date yet. If you haven't seen it yet go the offical website they have a great trailer of the game you can watch. Here's the link...

[URL=http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=54610f14-1826-4d46-9981-8f72874aee2e&]New Zelda Game Info[/URL]

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[color=#4B0082]I've heard as early as Summer 2005 from various places, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it's released later, around the holiday season. Then again, I thought the same thing about The Wind Waker (though in its case I think it could've used the extra time, for more dungeons to be put in), so who knows. We'll probably have to wait till E3 to get an official release date for the game.

Putting aside the April Fools joke, though, I wonder if Nintendo is actually going to have any sort of pre-order bonus. The OOT/OMQ disc and the Collector's Edition disc were both really well received, so I think it's possible they'll do something with this new game. But what could it be? With a Game Boy Player, you can already play every Zelda game on the GCN. Unless ... a collection of the CD-i Zelda games?[/color]

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[quote name='Desbreko][color=#4B0082'] But what could it be? With a Game Boy Player, you can already play every Zelda game on the GCN. Unless ... a collection of the CD-i Zelda games?[/color][/quote]

Yeah, I don't own nearly enough awful games, so that would be nice. :p

I wouldn't really mind waiting until the holiday season if it means that we'll be playing a better game. I loved Wind Waker, but there are certain aspects of the game which I thought could've been worked on more (the relatively small number of dungeons, the fetch-quest stuff near the end of the game, etc.). Like every Zelda game, this game has the potential to be really special, and I hope that it delivers.

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Nintendo made some massive announcements today (Revolution will be backwards compatible, wi-fi out of the box, DS is going online via wireless internet, Animal Crossing DS is internet ready, etc)....

But they also showed a new Zelda trailer. Here's an image from Gamespot. I'll add more to this in a bit.

[IMG]http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/068/reviews/920769_20050310_screen006.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/068/reviews/920769_20050310_screen005.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/068/reviews/920769_20050309_screen001.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/068/reviews/920769_20050309_screen003.jpg[/IMG]

Trailer: [url]http://www.nintendo.com/gameminiav?gameid=54610f14-1826-4d46-9981-8f72874aee2e&[/url]

IGN also has a free, low res one on their site.

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[quote name='Generic NPC #3']But they also showed a new Zelda trailer.[/quote]

WOW that trailer is amazing, i have to thank for that.
Now the suspense is killing me *lol*
It's been said to be realeased May 6th in the UK, i can't wait that long :animecry:

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[QUOTE=liam mc]WOW that trailer is amazing, i have to thank for that.
Now the suspense is killing me *lol*
It's been said to be realeased May 6th in the UK, i can't wait that long :animecry:[/QUOTE]

I don't know who told you that, but that's before E3 even takes place. That's not happening, it's set for more of a Christmas release.

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