Heavy Metal: A Head Banger's Discussion Thread

[Nomurah!]

[SIZE="1"][COLOR="HotPink"]I'm sorry Jake! T_T I wouldn't know genres...

What exactly makes the genre Death Metal?

And What is metalcore if it has no pop chorus' and guitar solos?

I need to know. xD[/COLOR][/SIZE]

p.s- myspace music player doesn't work so well..
last time I used it.. I waited hours just to hear Gallowbraid's music. :]
does Primordial have any other links?
speaking of that... does Gallowbraid have purevolume?

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Seeing your new banner, Jake, I finally decided to check out your Gallowbraid myspace and holy ****! You kick serious as dude! I never thought I'd be able to actually know someone and be a fan of them, but seriously, you can chalk me up as one of your official fans! What city do you live in? I gotta see ya live sometime![/COLOR]

[Panache]

I like Enthroned by Winter. That **** is ****ing kick ***. I am adding you to friends and throwing your song on my profile. You have a CD out or something that I could buy?

[Jakehammaren]

Thank you guys for the kind words on my music!

[B]@ Woah, Mann[/B] - It's cool, no worries. Metalcore without pop choruses is still metalcore (and therefore still belongs in the "Extreme/Heavy Music That Isn't Metal" thread). As for explaining to you what constitutes death metal, it's kind of difficult to do so without just showing you bands. Check out the following: Unleashed, Bloodbath, Necrophagist, Amon Amarth. The first band is traditional Swedish death metal, the second is just good straight-up death metal (still of the more Swedish persuasion), the fourth is the technical variety of death metal, and the fourth is a more melodic style. And no, Gallowbraid doesn't have a Purevolume. I should probably do that though, now that you mention it...

[B]@ DigitalBoy[/B] - Haha! Thank you for the enthusiasm! I truly appreciate the kind words. I'm based out of Park City, Utah (as it says on the Myspace page), but me and the live group would be playing our shows in Salt Lake City.

[B]@ Avenged666fold[/B] - Ah yes, Elderfrost. I'm glad you enjoy it. I actually have an entire new Elderfrost song recorded, I just haven't finished the vocals yet. I've been focusing my time and energy on Gallowbraid lately, so I just haven't gotten around to the Elderfrost stuff as often as I'd like. And no, I don't have a CD out, but you can download all the songs right off the Myspace!

[Panache]

[QUOTE]@ Avenged666fold - Ah yes, Elderfrost. I'm glad you enjoy it. I actually have an entire new Elderfrost song recorded, I just haven't finished the vocals yet. I've been focusing my time and energy on Gallowbraid lately, so I just haven't gotten around to the Elderfrost stuff as often as I'd like. And no, I don't have a CD out, but you can download all the songs right off the Myspace![/QUOTE]Sweet! I am going to try and listen to more of your stuff during this week on the bus. I will tell you more about what I think later.

[Justin]

[quote name='Whoa, Mann'][SIZE="1"][COLOR="HotPink"]
[B]MyChildren MyBride[/B]- A band that I like to call "Alternative Metalcore". Basically, sort of like xDSx. Basically, while you still get punk mixed in with metal, you get no melodic crap. This band is another one of those "Call to Arms" straightedge bands, just as xDSx, and call out to men and women to stand up. :] These guys have a really nice sound, because of the fact that they have alot of deathmetal riffs and metalcore signatures, and the drummer doesn't use alot of double-eight bass rolls, but instead just flams the bass a few times to make a nice small touch, which is very effective, and then he actually uses drum beats! Oh noez! Something other than a constant doublebass, even though he does use it alot, which is evident in songs like "Boris the Blade". :]

[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Metalcore to the core. Not metal at all. When they played Summer Side Show 4 down here this past June, they literally sounded like they were playing the same song over and over again.

Not to mention they're wannabe rock stars. I've done so many shows with these losers over the last two years, and they've got the worst attitudes and no talent to back it up. God, that's irritating.

It honestly surprised me that I didn't see Bolt thrower on that list, Jake. I was also surprised by the absence of At the Gates, Carcass or most classic representatives of the melodic death metal movement.

So, for the sake of conversation, what's your take on that movement?

-Justin

[James P. Galvatron]

Some more recent bands I just started listening too about a month are Amon Amarth, Sirenia, Majesty, Iron Savior, Dream Evil, Therion, Elis, Seraphim a metal band based in Thailand that added me on myspace about 3 months ago, Job For A Cowboy, Celtic Frost, Azrael, Emperor, Arch Enemy, Immortal, Lacrimosa, and Mastadon. If all of those are not metal tell me Jake cause I sometimes confuse what constitutes Metal these days so confusing.

All these scene musics alot of them annoying and repititious at that.

[Justin]

That is, doubtless, one of the most unique sounds I've heard in a long time. Primordial, that is. I noticed they're signed to Metal Blade, as well. It's still unfortunate that they probably won't get very much attention, outside of old goats like us.

I find myself looking more and more for metal that does just that. Progresses(whether it's Progressive or not) into something that's new, still metal, and doesn't have 'grind' or 'core' attached to its description.

I still want to hear your perspective on the MDM movement, Jake.

-Justin

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Jakehammaren'][B]@ DigitalBoy[/B] - Haha! Thank you for the enthusiasm! I truly appreciate the kind words. I'm based out of Park City, Utah (as it says on the Myspace page), but me and the live group would be playing our shows in Salt Lake City.[/QUOTE]Park City, Utah huh? I've only been there a few times, but it's a nice town. :) It's a pity that metal isn't my thing since I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. lol

Oh and the reason I'm posting at all? I went and checked out your myspace account as well as the songs you have posted up at the other ones listed. My biggest turn off to metal is the vocal aspect but that's not worth getting into since that's a preference and not an indication of what the song is really like.

Out of everything, the music for both Enthroned by Winter and Autumn Withering were the ones I found the most fun to listen to. Especially that bit of a light melody you run into about 1:45 to 1:55 into Enthroned by Winter. And Mead was definitely a very different twist, at least in regards to the other songs. One that I rather liked. Overall, you've got some nice music posted at your sites.

And as you already know I like the other stuff by October Falls. It's a pity that metal bands don't release more instrumental versions without the singing, or do they and I'm just not aware of it since I don't really pay attention to this type of music? Because that style of singing is what turns me off to metal more than anything. Not the actual music since many of them are quite talented. I just can't get past that singing. XP

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Rach, you ought to do what I did and train your ears. I used to HATE screaming utterly, even light growling. It took a lot of effort to be able to tolerate screaming. I think the band who helped the most in the transition was Isis - the screams are barely audible over the simply amazing music and I managed to learn to appreciate the emotion that can be brought from screams sometimes. Agalloch helped in that respect especially, because the screams actually enhance the musical experience.

I still can't stand most categories of screams, but I've come to accept them a LOT more. [/COLOR]

[Panache]

I got used to screaming by Nu-Metal and Hard Rock bands. I gradually became used to them and now often it adds a good bit of aggression when they growl or something like that.

[Jakehammaren]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']And as you already know I like the other stuff by October Falls. It's a pity that metal bands don't release more instrumental versions without the singing, or do they and I'm just not aware of it since I don't really pay attention to this type of music? Because that style of singing is what turns me off to metal more than anything. Not the actual music since many of them are quite talented. I just can't get past that singing. XP[/QUOTE]

Have you ever heard of Nightwish? They're one of the most well-known metal bands in the current scene, so you probably have. But if not, I think it'd be an excellent start for you. The genre in question is neo-classical metal, so that's an in for you right there. Their latest two albums include a full orchestra (that's actually very well done - these guys really do know their way around music), and their most recent album is actually a two-disc set - the second of which is the entire album featuring only the orchestral tracks to each song.

If you can, find the song Ghost Love Score. I'm sure you'll love it. Unfortnately, I couldn't find any of their really good stuff in an easily accessible spot, but here's a link to one of their poppier (and downright catchy as hell, I have to admit) songs. Keep in mind, they have a new vocalist on the new album. The older one was extremely operatic, the new one has a smoother 'pop' voice (which I actually prefer, for some reason...).

[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=GdZn7k5rZLQ[/url]

They only release their more conventional poppier songs as singles, but where their true form lies is in the really bombastic orchestral epics that they are capable of cranking out. Again, you really have to hear that song Ghost Love Score. It's incredible.

Also, check out Kamelot. It's another metal band that is heavily influenced by classical and opera music, and the vocalist is classically trained. The song I've posted the link to is actually one of their most intense songs, so if you enjoy this, you'll enjoy most of their stuff. They're a really, really great group of musicians. I have to warn you - this is the band that has single-handedly gotten many of my classically inclined friends very much into metal. :p

[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=J-TUufvK0gU[/url]

[B]@ Kam[/B] - The problem with melo-death is that nowadays it all a) sounds the same, and b) sounds like metalcore [albeit less annoying]. At it's inception, it was a pretty cool genre, what with Carcass, At the Gates, In Flames, and Dark Tranquillity leading the way. And this is back when In Flames was actually a really cool band, by the way - you know, before they turned into a Korn cover band with the tempo cranked up. But now, it's one of the most banal genres of metal, and is entirely devoid of integrity or anything interesting. The only melo-death bands I can think of that are still any good are Insomnium, Dark Tranquillity and Amon Amarth, the latter of which doesn't even sound like any other melo-death band anyway.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Jakehammaren']Have you ever heard of Nightwish? They're one of the most well-known metal bands in the current scene, so you probably have. But if not, I think it'd be an excellent start for you. The genre in question is neo-classical metal, so that's an in for you right there. Their latest two albums include a full orchestra (that's actually very well done - these guys really do know their way around music), and their most recent album is actually a two-disc set - the second of which is the entire album featuring only the orchestral tracks to each song.[/QUOTE]I've heard the name but I've never listened to their work before. However I did go and check out their latest album Dark Passion Play. It wasn't too hard to find the instrumental versions at youtube to listen to. It's interesting that you mention a full orchestra, since the information I have found indicates that the orchestral part is recorded by the London Philharmonic Orchestra. Which upon listening to it would not surprise me if it was accurate if only because that part of it really does have an excellent sound to it. Far better than I am use to hearing.

So far the instrumental song I like best is The Poet and the Pendulum and I'll be getting the two disk set just to get that song. Though I had to order it from a seller in order to get the two disk set with the instrumental versions.

It has a very dramatic flair to it that reminds of some movie sound tracks I've heard, though I can't put my finger on it as to which movies. At least not at the moment. It most definitely has a very classical influence to it though.

Anyway, thank you very much for the information. I'm always looking to expand my library of music. :catgirl: What will really be fun though is my roommates and friends reaction when the album arrives and they realize just what it is. lol

[Justin]

Nightwish does have some fantastic stuff, if you look for it. I'm going to have to disagree about their new singer, though, Jake. I like the ore operatic stylings of their former vocalist much better.

Tell me, Jake...what do you think of Moonsorrow's most recent release?

-Justin

[Jakehammaren]

[quote name='Kam']Nightwish does have some fantastic stuff, if you look for it. I'm going to have to disagree about their new singer, though, Jake. I like the ore operatic stylings of their former vocalist much better.

Tell me, Jake...what do you think of Moonsorrow's most recent release?

-Justin[/QUOTE]

She overdid her vocals so bad, though. Her vibrato was ridiculous and annoying, and they had her voice be the forefront of the music far too often. The new vocalist still has incredible range, control, and technique, but she fits the music instead of getting in the way, and her voice is actually pleasing to listen too.

And the new Moonsorrow... holy ****ing ****... it's so amazing. This band can seriously do no wrong. None at all.

And screw the people who say "OMG IT SUX CUZ THEY AR NOT AS FOLKSY AS TEY USED TO BE!!1!" You know what? Shut up and listen to [I]Suden Un[/I]i or a Finntroll album. [I]V: Havitetty[/I] is, first of all, musically genius. Secondly, it's so all-encompassing and epic that I have a hard time not climbing to the top of a snow-swept mountain in the far reaches of the North, raising my axe on high, and hailing the might and glory of my forefathers every single time I listen to it. It's an entire world and time captured on a CD. It's absolutely fantastic - every second of it. I think it's excellent how they really focussed on the atmosphere of their music this time. It's amazing.

I love how Moonsorrow manages to progress and evolve with every album without losing integrity or getting self-indulgent. I don't know many bands who can pull off a half-hour long song without getting masturbatory with it (Darkestrah's [I]Epos[/I] is another excellent example of how to write a half-hour long song without getting egotistical).

So yes, short end of it: I ****ING LOVE THE NEW MOONSORROW.

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]Well, I bought my first REAL metal album yesterday. Sadly, it was The Dethalbum. >_> But let's just say, I've become even further interested in Death Metal. far more interested. Even though a few songs on the album made me piss myself with laughter, it was great.

Because I have my new Co&Ca album, I'm free to buy ANYTHING because I don't have an album on my waiting list. So, I'm going to buy Mastadon's Blood Mountain CD next, than hopefully; an Amon Amarth album to please my ears with.

P.S. I was able to hear like 11 seconds of an Elder Frost song, and even though it was 11 seconds, it was great. Too bad I couldn't hear more. :animeswea [/COLOR]

[Panache]

Wow um wtf is up with Dying Fetus? I swear they hired COOKIE MONSTER to do their vocals for them...I mean seriously wtf? This is officially the WORST death metal group PERIOD.

[Justin]

You keep bashing bands like Cannibal Corpse and Dying Fetus, both of whom are incredibly talented bands, and you're starting to get on my nerves.

Cannibal Corpse is real death metal. By saying that I'm not bashing other death metal bands talked about in this thread; I'm simply saying that Cannibal Corpse(or any one of the many other like minded bands, i.e.: Morbid Angel, Death, Nile, Cryptopsy, Suffocation, Decapitated) are part of the root system that produced those other bands.

And near as I can figure, you're only bashing them for their vocal technique. That's fine if you don't like it, but you can't keep saying how much they suck when they do not. Say it if you don't like them, but don't say they suck...especially if you don't know what real death metal is even supposed to sound like.

There's nothing more irritating than someone who doesn't know what they're talking about spouting off at the mouth like they do.

-Justin

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]I don't like Cannibal Corpse myself, but I agree with Kam, they are very talented. And as for Dying Fetus, I've only heard them once, but they are not bad at all. I myself haven't heard much metal in my lifetime, but I know they do not suck. I don't mind their voices either, just not interested in them.

Oops forgot to mention something. I heard some High on Fire - I think Goodbye Face has talked about them - and I really liked them. I heard the song Death to the Commune and I loved it.[/COLOR]

[Justin]

And that's the correct way to go about speaking of a band you don't like, in a genre you're underexposed to.

Now, if someone who knew what they were taling about were to criticize Cannibal Corpse's complete lack of structure on their early work, or their incorporation of more traditional structure in their later work, or their ridiculous lyrics, or whatever, that's fine too. It just irritates me when people say bands suck but can't produce a single shred of reason for why.

-Justin

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]Well, the band in question, I think I heard some of their older work. I'll have to search about them and find out. But I can vaguely remember the song. I've heard tons of good things about Cannibal Corpse from friends at home though, so they aren't new to me.

When I listen to music I think of how I like it, and I think of how someone else would like it. So even though I might not be interestd, someone else might be and I could look at it from a different stand-point. [/COLOR]

[Panache]

[quote name='Kam']You keep bashing bands like Cannibal Corpse and Dying Fetus, both of whom are incredibly talented bands, and you're starting to get on my nerves.

Cannibal Corpse is real death metal. By saying that I'm not bashing other death metal bands talked about in this thread; I'm simply saying that Cannibal Corpse(or any one of the many other like minded bands, i.e.: Morbid Angel, Death, Nile, Cryptopsy, Suffocation, Decapitated) are part of the root system that produced those other bands.

And near as I can figure, you're only bashing them for their vocal technique. That's fine if you don't like it, but you can't keep saying how much they suck when they do not. Say it if you don't like them, but don't say they suck...especially if you don't know what real death metal is even supposed to sound like.

There's nothing more irritating than someone who doesn't know what they're talking about spouting off at the mouth like they do.

-Justin[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="Jakehammaren"]And sorry Kam, but I think Groove Metal is the lowest rung of metal (unless you count metalcore as metal, which it isn't, because really it's just hardcore punk that uses metal aesthetic). All the Groove Metal bands I've heard sound the same and also sound borderline mallcore. And I really, REALLY can't stand Pantera. Ugh.

As for metalcore being the new Glam - yes. It most definitely is. It's just pop music with some screaming and guitars thrown in. Seriously. Take It Dies Today for example - chugga, chugga, chugga, ripoff Gothenburg riff, chugga, chugga, pop chorus... etc. And when I say pop chorus, I mean it - so many metalcore bands have straight-up pop choruses. All That Remains is another perfect testament to this. It's horrible.

Metalcore has no integrity. It's all image.[/QUOTE]So Jake can go ahead and say two whole genres suck basically(which I don't really have a problem with since I know it's what HE thinks rather than him speaking as the authority on music as a whole) and you don't mind but If I get on a band or two you get your panties in a bunch? Hell I even had legit reasons on both. Vocals were incredibly awful. If Death Metal vocals are suppose to sound like that then that's a genre that doesn't need vocals at all. The only Death Metal band I have listened to on that little lsit was Morbid ANgel and htey do not sound ANYWHERE as bad as that. YOU may have not thought it was that bad (which I cannot comprehend) but If you actually compared them to cookie monster they would basically sound the same. Is cookie monster a bad singer? I think so. I think a band who has a lead signer who sounds like him does not qualify as good. I actually think they qualify as as the worst. When I hear their music I hear the worst so I will cay they are the worst. You may not think they suck but I do.I am not speaking for everyone on the whole planet when I say they suck. I am obviously speaking from my point of view. In my opinion they are the worst. I just don't feel the need to say that to everything I say. Also about talent...I never said they werent talented. I just said they sounded bad(in different words of course). Sure they need talent to get a record label and to sell records like they do. They are either talented or really good scam artists.

[QUOTE]I'm simply saying that Cannibal Corpse(or any one of the many other like minded bands, i.e.: Morbid Angel, Death, Nile, Cryptopsy, Suffocation, Decapitated) are part of the root system that produced those other bands. [/QUOTE]They can be like minded but they still sound different and sound terrible to me(I am talking of the two bands I mentioned before I have only heard Morbid Angel out of that list you made). Sure they might "inspire" people to make music but that still doesn't mean they will sound good to me.

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]Teh singer isn't all that the band depends on. The biggest force is the music behind the man/woman. Some people might not like Death Metal screaming, but they can feel that the playing is good. Just becasue it is the frontman, doesn't mean everything you need is dependant on him. So what if he does sing horribly, what really matters is the band as a whole.[/COLOR]

[Panache]

[quote name='Gunslinger'][COLOR="77656"]Teh singer isn't all that the band depends on. The biggest force is the music behind the man/woman. Some people might not like Death Metal screaming, but they can feel that the playing is good. Just becasue it is the frontman, doesn't mean everything you need is dependant on him. So what if he does sing horribly, what really matters is the band as a whole.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I am aware of that but these lead signers are too annoying for anything positive(most of the time) they have in my opinion. I mean it may not be the most important thing but it is still important. And actually I like a few Cannibal Corpse songs...mostly because they sound funny but they have a few catchy riffs. Oh and for the record no I havent heard ALL of either of their songs.

[Justin]

Where in that post did jake say groove metal sucks? He didn't. He said he can't stand it. That's fine. He also had reasons for that statement that he was able to relate to the music and the genre as a whole for why he disliked it.

Your only reason is 'cookie monster vocals.' That has been a derogatory phrase to describe death metal vocals since the beginning. One used primarily by people who don't know anything about the music itself.

I do happen to enjoy Dying Fetus' vocal technique and arrangement. And I don't find any similarities with the cookie monster and their vocals, as the cookie monster's voice is talked out. Dying Fetus(and most death metal bands with guttural vocals) use a technique to create their vocals. If you want vocals in a metal band actually similar to the cookie monster, try Dethklok; as Brendan Small does a more similar talking style.

My point isn't that you dislike them. That's fine. My point is that you disrespect the musicians by saying that they suck, without giving any legitimate reason for why they do. 'Cookie monster vocals' makes you look like every mainstream retard who has ever hated on death metal, as that is about as deep as they listen to the music. And it isn't for you to say 'if that's the way death metal vocals are supposed to sound, then that's a genre of music that shouldn't have vocals.' People like you are the reason that extreme metal evolved. To be seperate from people unwilling to dive into something they don't understand, and learn to appreciate(and maybe enjoy) its finer points.

You also highlighted Jake's criticism of metalcore. On this point, he and I are of a like-mind. Metalcore, on the whole, does suck. Why? It's a perversion of everything extreme metal, and heavy metal at large, stands for. That is seperation, originality, musicianship, and fidelity to all the aforementioned ends. [i]Most[/i] metalcore is geared toward the mainstream audience, very unoriginal, very short on musical talent, and it promotes the idea of conforming for the sake of popularity.

Now, I don't want to attack you. Your musical interests are not that far removed from mine a few years ago, nor is your response to my criticism of you. All that I'm asking is that you not so bluntly attack something you're not a part of. [i]Come up with a legitimate defense of what you say.[/i] And 'cookie monster vocals' are [i]not[/i] a legitimate defense for why a death metal band sucks.

-Justin