Humaru Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='Lawliet']I think that's wrong, Yuruichi is hella fast and both of them are smart enough to keep their guard up while walking in enemy territory (unlike Renji). I can't see Kisuke getting trapped by something designed by someone who was out smarted by Mayuri. Secondly, Yamma had him open the portals to HM for the captains, which means that he would have had to leave right after they did, and by that time Szayel's palace was wrecked by Renji and his clone's bankai. I guess you could say that he arrived their before the 12th captain, while the palace was still up, on account of Mayuri having to preform his surgery. But I feel like he would have come to Ishida and Renji's rescue, seeing as Szayel was dominating them the entire fight and he has close relationships with both of them, and not fallen into a trap... Ishida did manage to get around the traps and save Renji after all (and I don't see Ishida out classing Kisuke and Yurichi in any way shape or form).[/QUOTE] Im definitely not doubting the talents of Yuruichi and Kisuke by any means. I was saying that they were captured on purpose to hide their true actions. But throughout the week I was thinking back to the arrancars who were demoted from the espada. 2 of the 3 arrancars were defeated and then killed and taken away by the Exequias. Maybe examining those bodies was how Szayel knew so much about his opponent. I dont know but I wish I could find out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magus Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 [font=franklin gothic medium][color=green]I enjoyed this chapter even though I didn't get my bankai... Curse you Kubo for these hangers. The Father, son confrontation is something that's been needed for quite some time since it seems Kubo's lost his touch for throwing comedy in the serious situations. I know we got some comedy from the vaizards but I didn't really find any of it funny. (Hiyori and Hitsu was funny though) I do wish something was asked from Ichigo just to give us at least one answer. I know everything will come in due time, but I want to know now... At least what division was Isshin the captain of. Still finding it hard to believe that SS forgot/don't know about Isshin and yet Aizen (maybe Gin) does. Definately looking forward to next chapter.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 [SIZE=1]Hmm does indeed look like next week is going to be very interesting. I'm only hoping that if Gin ends up losing he has the good sense to flee rather than get killed, as I think every Bleach fan wants the fox to survive. Apparently Kubo flubbed the line last week, it was originally supposed to be "you are a human and a..." and shinigami was written accidentally, so no big mystery any more. Regarding Isshin, I still believe he's a former Royal Guardsman who got exiled, which would explain why Soul Society has never made mention of him (Yama was/is probably the only one alive who knew/knows him) and his name probably wasn't originally Kurosaki Isshin as aside from my own Shiba theory, he's surprised when Ryuken calls him "Kurosaki". Aizen knows about him...well because according to Kubo Aizen knows everything, so an exiled Royal Guard in the human realm isn't beyond his knowledge. The talk between Ichigo and Isshin was good, I've always tried to figure out how that would go down and to be honest I think Kubo probably handled it as well as it could be. Ichigo knows his father wants to explain stuff to him when things have settle down and is willing to wait for it. I guess it's only a matter of time before Karin and Yuzu develop their powers now. Also, major lulz at Isshin flicking Aizen through a building, people were going ZOMG when Shinji used Kyouka Suigetsu-lite to cut him and Isshin just blew that out the window...literally. [/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 Just got through reading Bleach and... I dunno. I'm a little disappointed, to be honest. Ya, Isshin is a pretty beast character and all, but... well, I'm disappointed that Ichigo is only a human/shinigami combination. How is being human useful at all except for not requiring a gigai to walk around on Earth (now *that* is an awesome skill, amirite?)? I'm also fairly certain that just about everyone knew he was part shinigami thanks to the Isshin revelation with King Fisher a long, long time ago. What the heck is this? So much hype, so much suspense, just to give us information we already know? Why doesn't Kubo just start putting irrelevant information in a cliffhanger-esque fashion at the end of every chapter just for the lulz. At least then I wouldn't get my hopes up. First chapter *Isshin pops in* Ichigo : "... Dad..?" Isshin : "Ichigo... I'm..." Next week : Isshin : "your father". ~~~ Maybe I'm just personally irritated because I want to see some Hollow love going on here. And after Kubo essentially went out of his way to make the Hollows semi-amiable (with the newfound personalities and all-around-awesomeness(?)) in the Espada, I sort of expected he would do something else with it than to just create pawns for the omni-potentscient Aizen. Maybe some personification and people could actually see them as something other than beasts to be hunted down. Maybe something that could even be a motherly figure? Fatherly figure? At least a figure that can be mistaken for almost human? -__-;; I am still not convinced, however. Aizen isn't going to go out of his way for a simple Shinigami / Human child. I sure as heck hope he isn't, which means that he's most likely going after Isshin if what was said about Ichigo is true. Isshin. Good ol' Isshin. Isshin was all too happy to jump out to attack the King Fisher -- I'm sure Aizen could have fished him out without resorting to... what... a few years at least throwing people at Ichigo. He seems less a chessmaster and more a letdown psycho who's just getting his kicks now. "Oh, hai Isshin. Ya, it's me, Aizen, remember? Ya, I told you I'd never forget about that time you ate the last slice of pizza." "I... what?" "Ya, that's right. You ate my flippin' pizza. Now your son is paying the price -- look at him and his Shinigami ways! He can float in mid-air now! I had to kill most of the high-ranking Shinigami and Arrancar that I essentially farmed for the longest time, but I did it! Look who has the last laugh now!" ~~~ Man, am I steamed... -__- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 [SIZE=1]I think the flubbing of the line really threw people as far as creating theories goes. We, the readers, have known Ichigo's full parentage since Isshin was revealed to be a Shinigami, the big reveal is supposed to be a huge surprise to Ichigo, not us. What we've been supposed to take out of Bleach for ages is that Ichigo is special because he's part human, he puts every one of Soul Society's geniuses and prodigies to shame. Hitsugaya is a prodigy because he attained bankai, mastered the Shinigami arts and became a captain in fifty years, Kyouraku and Ukitake talk about how one day he'll replace them as the top-tier captain. Ichigo has done all that in less than 18 months, there's something about the fact he's part human allows him to attain these level of proficiency and power in a fraction of the time it would take other geniuses. Even if Isshin was as powerful as Yama, and to be honest with the strength he's displaying at the minute (I think his "flick" to Aizen was actually the Level 1 Hadou [I]Shou[/I]) it's looking like it might be likely, that wouldn't explain how Ichigo is able to advance at the speed he has been advancing at. It seems, put simply that Shinigami/Human hybrids (although that begs the question of how something dead can mate with something living I'm thinking Urahara had a hand here) are much more powerful than purebreed Shinigami. I'm not really bothered that Masaki didn't turn out to be a Hollow, even if the Arrancar and Espada humanised them which is what Shinigamification is supposed to do, or at least give them back their reason they're still ultimately the bad-guys of the show. Maybe it's because outside of Stark and Ulquiorra I never cared for any of the Espada (I loathed Grimmjow and Nnoitra in particular) so the idea of legitimising their existence by proving that they could co-exist in their original forms with Shinigami didn't seem right to me. Ultimately how would Ichigo feel if he knew his mother was the gestalt of tens of thousands, if not more other souls [/SIZE][SIZE=1] (if she's was supposed to be a Vasto Lorde) [/SIZE][SIZE=1]she'd consumed over her lifetime? Neliel even though she has become a better person since becoming an Arrancar realises that she is ultimately still a monster. Aizen is interested in anything he views as capable of breaking through the limits of his power, originally he seemed to believe Hollowification was that road but given his comments on the Vizard and the fact he chose not to Hollowify himself but fuse with the Hougogkyu instead it seems that's not the only avenue he's been exploring. Perhaps since Ichigo he believes a part-human Shinigami who undergoes Hollowifcation is that limit breaker, or at least the path to pure hybridization. [/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]the big reveal is supposed to be a huge surprise to Ichigo, not us.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] If that was the case, then there was absolutely no need to have that in the form of a "cliff-hanger". Since cliff-hangers don't exist inside the Bleach universe (I'm pretty sure Ichigo didn't go "I'm half what, Aizen?!" for the week afterward), I am going to assume it was meant for the readers. There's nothing new to see here, though -- it's outdated information we received a long, long time ago. I will begrudgingly admit that there are far worse ways to transition into chapters, and that used in that way, I don't have as great a problem with it, though it still irritates me since I had my hopes up. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]What we've been supposed to take out of Bleach for ages is that Ichigo is special because he's part human, he puts every one of Soul Society's geniuses and prodigies to shame... Even if Isshin was as powerful as Yama... [/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] The thing is is that I *don't* believe Ichigo is special because he's part human. I am hoping beyond hope that that is also the direction Kubo is *not* going with this revelation, because while I can accept that somebody like Ichigo can do all of these things that took everybody else forever to do, having the explanation be "because you are human" just... it doesn't sit well. Heck, Ichigo even has to abandon his human body just to use his Shinigami abilities -- the only way I can imagine being a human would allow Ichigo to grow at such rates is if it was somehow explained that the souls that enter Soul Society do not grow in power, or have stunted growth, compared to the growth of souls inhabiting a living body. Even this explanation would be a long stretch to me, and would have to be presented very well for me to accept it. It simply doesn't take into consideration a good deal of factors. I believe he's gotten to be as strong as he is thanks to his constant fighting against strong opponents, which is, really, Aizen's doing. It can be argued that Abarai Renji attained his Bankai in much the same way -- from his fight with Ichigo and his upcoming fight with Byakuya. Even when Ichigo was trying to get his Bankai, he was fighting against his pseudo Zanpakuto spirit. For his Hollow powers, against his inner hollow. I also believe it is entirely possible that a good deal of Ichigo's growth can be attributed to Isshin's abilities. If you recall, all of Ichigo's entire family is able to see spirits in some manner, even though they are not full-blown Shinigami. Ichigo's sealed state Zanpakuto was also incredibly large owing to his already rather sizable spiritual pressure (with lack of control). These were already inherent within him thanks to, I believe, the nature of his father. His subsequent growth is not so great a surprise, considering that he was probably as powerful as, at least, a fifth or fourth seat upon taking Rukia's power. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'] [SIZE=1] Ultimately how would Ichigo feel if he knew his mother was the gestalt of tens of thousands, if not more other souls [/SIZE][SIZE=1] (if she's was supposed to be a Vasto Lorde) [/SIZE][SIZE=1]she'd consumed over her lifetime? Neliel even though she has become a better person since becoming an Arrancar realises that she is ultimately still a monster.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1]It would make for an interesting psychological blow to Ichigo and would most likely push the manga into another interesting direction. How would *any* of the Shinigami in Soul Society feel if they learned that Ichigo is in fact a spawn of the very things they view as ultimate evil, while he has also been the one to bail them out of tough times at crucial moments? How would Ichigo's opinion of his father and mother change in response to this? It's all very interesting, and, once again, perhaps I am simply thrusting my own preferences into the future of the manga with wishful thinking. I cannot, however, consider hollows to be the ultimate enemy, no matter what action they may take. Considering that I managed to see a few hollows and how they were born (the baker and his mother, Orihime and her brother) as well as their actions and the distorted views which made them behave in such a way, I simply can't view any run-of-the-mill hollow as a possible tragic story and victim of circumstances. There must be *some* reason why shinigami do not appreciate the quincies' view of hollow removal (complete destruction as opposed to purification), but I also feel that Kubo himself is somewhat pushing his old plot device aside in favor of another, so it may be an unfortunate moot point.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 [SIZE=1][quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1]If that was the case, then there was absolutely no need to have that in the form of a "cliff-hanger". Since cliff-hangers don't exist inside the Bleach universe (I'm pretty sure Ichigo didn't go "I'm half what, Aizen?!" for the week afterward), I am going to assume it was meant for the readers. There's nothing new to see here, though -- it's outdated information we received a long, long time ago. I will begrudgingly admit that there are far worse ways to transition into chapters, and that used in that way, I don't have as great a problem with it, though it still irritates me since I had my hopes up.[/quote][/SIZE][SIZE=1] To be fair, I think the cliff-hanger for us was supposed to be Isshin showing up to the fight and the flubbing of the line just threw things completely out of whack in regard to what the cliff-hanger was supposed to be. Essentially Ichigo got the reveal his father is a Shinigami and we got the reveal that Isshin is fighting now. [quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1]The thing is is that I *don't* believe Ichigo is special because he's part human. I am hoping beyond hope that that is also the direction Kubo is *not* going with this revelation, because while I can accept that somebody like Ichigo can do all of these things that took everybody else forever to do, having the explanation be "because you are human" just... it doesn't sit well. Heck, Ichigo even has to abandon his human body just to use his Shinigami abilities -- the only way I can imagine being a human would allow Ichigo to grow at such rates is if it was somehow explained that the souls that enter Soul Society do not grow in power, or have stunted growth, compared to the growth of souls inhabiting a living body. Even this explanation would be a long stretch to me, and would have to be presented very well for me to accept it. It simply doesn't take into consideration a good deal of factors.[/quote] I'd say you had a point Rune if not for the fact we have other human characters in the series who have displayed phenomenal growth levels over the course of the series. Ishida and Chad for instance in roughly the same space of time that Ichigo has developed into an elite captain class combatant have also reached a state where they can fight evenly with low-captain class opponents. Orihime's powers are comparable to the strongest healing techniques Soul Society can offer. Then you have Keigo, Mizuiro and Tatsuki who have yet to be seen since their training begin. Sure, according to Urahara Chad and Inoue (and likely Tatsuki and co.) only developed powers from being near Ichigo when he was spilling out reiatsu unconsciously but that doesn't come anywhere near explaining the Quincy who were regular human souls who developed (if we take Ryuken as an example) the ability to become comparably powerful to Shinigami in considerably less time. I think saying that humans are special was wrong of me, I think it more so has to do with living souls (for the lack of a better term) who've been able to access their own reiatsu and develop it. Under those circumstances it seems they're able to grow in power much more quickly than dead souls like Shinigami or Hollows. [/SIZE] [SIZE=1] [quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1]I believe he's gotten to be as strong as he is thanks to his constant fighting against strong opponents, which is, really, Aizen's doing. It can be argued that Abarai Renji attained his Bankai in much the same way -- from his fight with Ichigo and his upcoming fight with Byakuya. Even when Ichigo was trying to get his Bankai, he was fighting against his pseudo Zanpakuto spirit. For his Hollow powers, against his inner hollow. I also believe it is entirely possible that a good deal of Ichigo's growth can be attributed to Isshin's abilities. If you recall, all of Ichigo's entire family is able to see spirits in some manner, even though they are not full-blown Shinigami. Ichigo's sealed state Zanpakuto was also incredibly large owing to his already rather sizable spiritual pressure (with lack of control). These were already inherent within him thanks to, I believe, the nature of his father. His subsequent growth is not so great a surprise, considering that he was probably as powerful as, at least, a fifth or fourth seat upon taking Rukia's power.[/SIZE][SIZE=1][/quote] [/SIZE] [SIZE=1] That's a fair point, I think Urahara mentioned back when Ichigo was first retraining as a Shinigami that when souls are placed in danger they become stronger we know that that Aizen has been intentionally pitting Ichigo against stronger and stronger opponents to make him stronger. Again though I think the boils back to my previous point about living souls, we've seen equally that Chad only developed similarly under his training with Renji but ultimately became much more powerful when fighting with Hollows because of their similar nature to himself. Ishida developed while training with his father. I think maybe it might be more accurate (and feel free to disagree with me here) that based on what we've seen so far, development occurs more quickly when fighting a similar type of reiatsu. We saw Ichigo develop quickly when fighting other Shinigami, but his early encounters with Grimmjow ended in very obvious defeat but as Ichigo began to gain control and develop his Hollow powers through fighting other Hollows (Shinji comments that Ichigo isn't developing by training with the Vizards) until ultimately he closes the gap with Grimmjow and then surpasses his power and the same thing along with further evolution for Ichigo occurs against Ulquiorra. I think Grimmjow even asks Ichigo directly if he became stronger from training, or just fighting. It's definitely fair to say that obviously Isshin has had a direct effect on Ichigo's potential. Byakuya states that the nobles tend to produce powerful Shinigami because of their more powerful reiatsu which is why Ichigo is much more powerful than Chad or Ishida in the same training period, because he inherited a powerful Shinigami reiatsu potential from his father but I think his development speed hasn't come from that or at least not all of it, otherwise Aizen should be equally interested in Shinigami like Byakuya who come from powerful lineages as well. I think Aizen is so interested in Ichigo because he's the perfect combination, he's a living soul (very quick development) who's the son of a very powerful Shinigami (will likely also be a very powerful Shinigami) who has also developed Hollow powers through regaining his Shinigami powers (hybridisation). I can definitely empathise that it's not as interesting from a story point of view that Ichigo isn't half Shinigami half Hollow, but based on the evidence in the manga so far, it makes sense. [quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1]It would make for an interesting psychological blow to Ichigo and would most likely push the manga into another interesting direction. How would *any* of the Shinigami in Soul Society feel if they learned that Ichigo is in fact a spawn of the very things they view as ultimate evil, while he has also been the one to bail them out of tough times at crucial moments? How would Ichigo's opinion of his father and mother change in response to this? It's all very interesting, and, once again, perhaps I am simply thrusting my own preferences into the future of the manga with wishful thinking. I cannot, however, consider hollows to be the ultimate enemy, no matter what action they may take. Considering that I managed to see a few hollows and how they were born (the baker and his mother, Orihime and her brother) as well as their actions and the distorted views which made them behave in such a way, I simply can't view any run-of-the-mill hollow as a possible tragic story and victim of circumstances. There must be *some* reason why shinigami do not appreciate the quincies' view of hollow removal (complete destruction as opposed to purification), but I also feel that Kubo himself is somewhat pushing his old plot device aside in favor of another, so it may be an unfortunate moot point.[/quote][/SIZE][SIZE=1] Certainly it would've been a very interesting (although maybe a bit obvious) twist for the manga. I think the thing about it though is that Hollows are only initially tragic characters, and even then it only applies to some of them. When they succumb to their monstrous nature (their loss of a heart which seems to be reason, empathy and morality) and embrace it, as Grand Fisher and most other Hollows seem to do, I think it's quite hard to view them as tragic. Sora was tragic because he was turned against his will into a Hollow. The thing is that Ichigo for all his camaraderie with the Shinigami hasn't assimilated into the Shinigami culture, nor did he accept himself to be a Vizard when Shinji initially introduced him (nor has he ever referred to himself as Vizard). He seems to be on friendly terms with the Shinigami captains as peers but equally was comfortable with rescuing Orihime against Yamamoto's explicit orders. I think for the moment Ichigo is still a very independent character outside his own group. Komamura made it clear that Soul Society doesn't view Ichigo as a monster despite his part Hollow nature because he didn't seek out those powers for himself. Maybe the revelation Ichigo wasn't human at all might change that, but honestly at this point given all the fighting he has done for Soul Society I wouldn't see it happening. Ichigo was in the right morally trying to rescue Rukia, so even his conflict with them was their fault. Maybe it would change how Ichigo viewed himself and his parents, but I don't think so either. He's shown himself to not view Arrancar as monsters in the same way Soul Society views Hollows, and given his rapport with Nel I don't think he'd view his mother any worse than he already did. In fact Ichigo has always treated the Hollows he's spoken to as people rather than monsters, admittedly they're monsters he's had to defeat and purify but still not mindless monsters to be destroyed. I might but wrong of course. One thing I always wondered about was that when Zangetsu told Ichigo he had his own Shinigami powers, surely he wondered where they came from. And given his father never displayed any power, yet his mother died saving him from Grand Fisher (who ate children, not women in the manga) perhaps he thought she was the Shinigami he got his powers from. It's just a theory. The reason the Shinigami wiped out the Quincy was because they were destroying the balance of souls between the Soul Society and the human world. Every Hollow killed isn't just one soul, it could be dozens, hundreds, even more when you get into Menos territory. Apparently when you get to a certain level of imbalance there's no going back, and because souls reincarnate from Soul Society back to Earth it's pretty obvious why what the Quincy were doing couldn't be allowed to continue. Given Ishida is still killing with his bow perhaps he's either changed the way his bow works to purify rather than kill or that plot point has been dropped. [/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1] I'd say you had a point Rune if not for the fact we have other human characters in the series who have displayed phenomenal growth levels over the course of the series. Ishida and Chad for instance in roughly the same space of time that Ichigo has developed into an elite captain class combatant have also reached a state where they can fight evenly with low-captain class opponents. Orihime's powers are comparable to the strongest healing techniques Soul Society can offer. Then you have Keigo, Mizuiro and Tatsuki who have yet to be seen since their training begin. [/SIZE][SIZE=1]Sure, according to Urahara Chad and Inoue (and likely Tatsuki and co.) only developed powers from being near Ichigo when he was spilling out reiatsu unconsciously but that doesn't come anywhere near explaining the Quincy who were regular human souls who developed (if we take Ryuken as an example) the ability to become comparably powerful to Shinigami in considerably less time. [/SIZE][SIZE=1]Again though I think the boils back to my previous point about living souls, we've seen equally that Chad only developed similarly under his training with Renji but ultimately became much more powerful when fighting with Hollows because of their similar nature to himself. Ishida developed while training with his father.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] Actually, Ishida has not developed his powers so quickly. He had to make use of an ancient artifact to artificially boost his level of power and then, after he misused it against Mayuri, had to train to get his *regular* powers back with a Master Quincy (his father). Even afterward, he hasn't really increased in *power* insomuch as he has increased the variety of artifact-esque weapons he possesses. Only his speed and analytical abilities have improved, really. As for Sado, he didn't really develop much at all -- his power is based primarily on his own life force energy, as seen when he initially went into Soul Society as a ryoka against Shunsui. As for his magnificant growth, that only occurred when he went into Hueco Mundo, in which I believe his exposure to the energy of the place is really what caused him to change whereas his battles simply required it be brought forth. Any of his power changes will be brought forth by improving his life force or figuring out how to use it effectively in his attacks. Comparatively, however, I would say that he didn't really achieve any upgrade of note until he went to Hueco Mundo, which really wasn't due to training at all, but to the unique root of his power. Orihime has seen little to no growth at all, and her power is based upon "willpower". In order to improve, she has to hold the desires the fairies represent -- the desire to heal, the desire to protect, and the desire to kill. Everything is based on her personal emotions and, since she has yet to really find a backbone, her growth is stunted heavily. As for her abilities, however, they came like that without any training necessary. She was always able to "heal" (which is actually reversing time, if I recall, which allows her to heal even body parts that no longer exist). She never needed to "train" in the first place except to figure out how to call the fairies forth or to steel her heart for what she has to do. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]I think saying that humans are special was wrong of me, I think it more so has to do with living souls (for the lack of a better term) who've been able to access their own reiatsu and develop it. Under those circumstances it seems they're able to grow in power much more quickly than dead souls like Shinigami or Hollows.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] Going from my points above, I would actually say Ichigo is the only person to have experienced any of this growth, and I would hardly attribute it to being human. He has grown in his abilities as a Shinigami, certainly, but this is mainly due to his insane powerups owing to his : Initial Shinigami Shikai Shikai Energy Blast Bankai Bankai Energy Blast Hollowification Second-stage Hollowification His "growth" has been largely superficial owing to his increasing repertoire of special moves ("power-ups") and his evolving hollow state. There has been *some* marked progress in terms of abilities and power, but the biggest difference between Initial Ichigo and Current Ichigo is his Bankai and Hollow form and, possibly, self-control, as opposed to a sheer difference in reiatsu level. Which means that, in his eighteen months, he has basically learned how to tap into what was already present inside of him as opposed to improving what is there, as members of Soul Society typically have to do. It is no surprise that his "growth" exceeds how fast the other Shinigami grow, as they had to actually improve themselves and increase their power instead of simply learning how to use it. It is similar to comparing teaching an already very physically fit person the correct way to fight to a person who is not fit at all trying to bulk up. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]Certainly it would've been a very interesting (although maybe a bit obvious) twist for the manga. I think the thing about it though is that Hollows are only initially tragic characters, and even then it only applies to some of them. When they succumb to their monstrous nature (their loss of a heart which seems to be reason, empathy and morality) and embrace it, as Grand Fisher and most other Hollows seem to do, I think it's quite hard to view them as tragic. Sora was tragic because he was turned against his will into a Hollow.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] Once again, I must bring up the statement that Hollows do not eat souls because they are hungry, but to help cover the pain they are feeling within themselves. A Hollow that is hungry is in pain, for the most part. I see hidden tragedies in hollows. Even though their current actions might be destructive, I sympathize with them and the actions that would make their once human soul loathe themselves. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1] Komamura made it clear that Soul Society doesn't view Ichigo as a monster despite his part Hollow nature because he didn't seek out those powers for himself. Maybe the revelation Ichigo wasn't human at all might change that, but honestly at this point given all the fighting he has done for Soul Society I wouldn't see it happening. Ichigo was in the right morally trying to rescue Rukia, so even his conflict with them was their fault.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1] Interestingly enough, the Vizards were "to be dealt with as hollows" even though *they* also did not seek out those abilities, either. It makes me wonder just how long ago Aizen put the council into his pocket and whether he was the one who actually forced Urahara's banishment.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawliet Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 Every human soul has potential to achieve main character status (and rapid power gain that comes with it), but not all of them do. and/or... You can't really compare Ichigo's power gain to the others because he is the only human/shinigami hybrid we've seen. Maybe any shinigami could go knock up any human and the result would be just as powerful as Ichigo. Ichigo is in an entirely different species than Ishida and all the other lamer humans... apples and oranges bro. Also we can't count the hollow power boosts cause that was a situational thing, and a side effect of him awakening his shinigami powers. Furthermore, you have a lot to say about this manga... I didn't even finish your post :animeswea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magus Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 [font=franklin gothic medium][color=green]This is why I like M7's translations over everyone elses. Chapter 397 proved that Aizen does know Isshin, and I can certainly see how the whole "Masaki being a hollow" theory came about now, and it only makes me even more anxious to see M7's translation for ch. 398. (I do believe it was a translation error) [url]http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/397/19[/url] But then again, thinking about it now, wasn't Masaki able to see hollows too? [url]http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/19/13[/url] [url]http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/19/14[/url] [url]http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/19/15[/url] Argh, I do believe a break is needed from the fighting just so we can get a flashback of Isshin's past because I'm curious about Masaki now. It still puzzles me that Aizen knows Isshin and the other captains don't. I'm beginning to go back to my idea of Isshin coming from the maggot's nest, but one thing I do hope is that Kubo don't pull something from Yu Yu Hakusho here. [spoiler]Yusuke's father being his demonic ancestor[/spoiler]. That type of thing only works once for me and I wouldn't want to see it in anything else. Kubo certainly hit the ringer here with the mystery part of the series.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 5, 2010 Share Posted April 5, 2010 [quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]Actually, Ishida has not developed his powers so quickly. He had to make use of an ancient artifact to artificially boost his level of power and then, after he misused it against Mayuri, had to train to get his *regular* powers back with a Master Quincy (his father). Even afterward, he hasn't really increased in *power* insomuch as he has increased the variety of artifact-esque weapons he possesses. Only his speed and analytical abilities have improved, really.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] I don't think that invalidates my point though, Ishida was able to get much, much stronger as a Quincy by using a Quincy artefact, which would've exposed him to a lot more Quincy reiatsu than he was used to. Up until that point Ishida was as far as he was aware the only Quincy alive which prevented him from training in any way other than solo. Initially when we meet Ishida he's apparently been a Quincy for several yet he's defeated rather handily by Renji, a Shinigami lieutenant whose power had been sealed to 1/5th it's norm for a trip into the spirit world. Later, having exposed himself to considerably more reiatsu via the glove (because Quincy fight by gathering energy rather than generating it) he was able to stand fairly evenly for a few minutes with a captain before releasing the seal on the glove and being able to access considerably more spiritual energy than he had before. I don't think a Quincy using an artefact is any more of an artificial boost than a Shinigami using their shikai or bankai. I think a better example though comes from when Ishida lost his power and had to retrain from scratch with his father. Admittedly knowing all that he has to relearn made the process quicker but he is still significantly more power than he was before he lost his power with the exception of when he broke the glove as shown by the fact he was able to fight and beat one of the Privaron who are supposedly captain class enemies. The fact he has a wider array of tools/weapons at his display is again no different in terms of how a Quincy becomes stronger than a Shinigami learning the likes of kidou or shunpo. [/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]Comparatively, however, I would say that he didn't really achieve any upgrade of note until he went to Hueco Mundo, which really wasn't due to training at all, but to the unique root of his power.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1] Again that was exactly my point, Chad developed his powers initially fighting a Hollow and was only able to augment that power by using his own life-force. In Hueco Mundo he directly states his power was only able to grow, due to its Hollow origins, by fighting other Hollows and the power-boost went from Chad not being fast enough to see D-Roy punch to be able to use a Sonido-variant to keep up with one of the Privaron, from being defeated by a back-hand from Yammy to be able to tank Gantembainne's strongest attack with one hand. [/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]Orihime has seen little to no growth at all, and her power is based upon "willpower". In order to improve, she has to hold the desires the fairies represent -- the desire to heal, the desire to protect, and the desire to kill. Everything is based on her personal emotions and, since she has yet to really find a backbone, her growth is stunted heavily. As for her abilities, however, they came like that without any training necessary. She was always able to "heal" (which is actually reversing time, if I recall, which allows her to heal even body parts that no longer exist). She never needed to "train" in the first place except to figure out how to call the fairies forth or to steel her heart for what she has to do.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1]The problem with arguing about Orihime is that her powers, and her reiatsu are for all intents and purposes unique, so she's entirely reliant on solo training and her willpower to develop and her powers have developed if you look at the fact: - It took her originally three days to reverse the damage to Jidanbou's arm. - It took her only a few hours to reverse the damage Ichigo had taken against Byakuya and Aizen. - Was apparently able to completely reverse Ichigo's damaged arm after his fight with Grimmjow in a single touch without even using her Shun-Shun-Rikka. - Reversed Grimmjow's lost arm in a few seconds. - She resurrected Menoly from practically nothing in only a few minutes. - She resurrected Ichigo to full-health in what appeared to be even less time when Ulquiorra used him as a pin-cushion. - Was able to block one of Ulquiorra's sword attacks with her shield where previously Yammy had broken it with a single finger. So either her will has become considerably stronger over the course of the manga, or she's achieved a base-level of rejection she can call on regardless which has developed. Either way, it points to the fact her powers have developed beyond their original level. Admittedly, where Ichigo is involved her will to act seems to either disappear or sky-rocket, but her level of power demonstrated on Jindabou, Grimmjow and Menoly gives us a sort of base indication. [/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]His "growth" has been largely superficial owing to his increasing repertoire of special moves ("power-ups") and his evolving hollow state. There has been *some* marked progress in terms of abilities and power, but the biggest difference between Initial Ichigo and Current Ichigo is his Bankai and Hollow form and, possibly, self-control, as opposed to a sheer difference in reiatsu level. Which means that, in his eighteen months, he has basically learned how to tap into what was already present inside of him as opposed to improving what is there, as members of Soul Society typically have to do. It is no surprise that his "growth" exceeds how fast the other Shinigami grow, as they had to actually improve themselves and increase their power instead of simply learning how to use it. It is similar to comparing teaching an already very physically fit person the correct way to fight to a person who is not fit at all trying to bulk up.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] That's a slightly unfair argument to make, I mean you're saying Ichigo has only ever been learning to tap further into the huge well of reiatsu he possesses all along but other Shinigami definitely do this and have to achieve their power through just graft ? There's absolutely no proof that other Shinigami don't simply learn to tap further and further into the depths of their own power through training. In fact as I recall Byakuya states that nobles are born with a higher reiatsu level in comparison to commoners. The fact that Ichigo's "well" of power runs so deep by comparison to other Shinigami shouldn't make the fact his training causes him to become much stronger by comparison any less valid. Other Shinigami train to use shunpo, and Ichigo despite his poor reiatsu control was able to master the art (Byakuya states he's mastered it) in only three days while mastering his bankai as well, a training which Zangetsu admits could kill him in the process. [/SIZE][SIZE=1] Aizen is directly interested in Ichigo, he calls him the perfect material so there must be something unique about his development which Aizen hasn't seen in anyone else he'd be able to access more easily, that causes him to be so interested. A huge reiatsu reserve could be Yamamoto, the ability to quickly master the Shinigami arts could've been Hitsugaya, Byakuya or Renji. I mean really, calling his Hollow powers, shikai and bankai "power-ups" rather than growth means that every Shinigami/Vizard who's achieved them has just "got a power-up" rather than displayed any growth, which to be honest is silly and disingenuous. We know that Shinigami can only achieve shikai by training and communicating with their sword, we know that they can only achieve bankai by materialising their zanpakutou and defeating it, the can only achieve stable Hollow powers by defeating their inner hollow. It's not as if Ichigo just woke up one morning and was able to do all these things, he has trained to achieve them. All that said, you've taken my points out of context. I was making the argument that it appears over the course of the manga that facing a similar type of reiatsu to one's own increases one's growth and development. If you want to refute that, refute that, please don't just pick at segments out of my argument and then take them out of context Rune. [/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]Once again, I must bring up the statement that Hollows do not eat souls because they are hungry, but to help cover the pain they are feeling within themselves. A Hollow that is hungry is in pain, for the most part. I see hidden tragedies in hollows. Even though their current actions might be destructive, I sympathize with them and the actions that would make their once human soul loathe themselves.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] I never said anything about their need to feed. Grand Fisher and Shrieker were genuinely evil beings who did evil things because it seemed to amuse them. If we take other Hollows who seem to act like wild-animals hunting for food I suppose there's an argument to be made that they're ultimately tragic creatures. In the end however, and Neliel herself admits this, they're monsters that need to be destroyed/purified [/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]Interestingly enough, the Vizards were "to be dealt with as hollows" even though *they* also did not seek out those abilities, either. It makes me wonder just how long ago Aizen put the council into his pocket and whether he was the one who actually forced Urahara's banishment.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1]Maybe, or maybe Aizen had to continue to act in the same manner that Central 46 had acted when he ordered Rukia's execution so as not to have them seem to be acting strange. Based on what we've seen of Central 46 they seem to be a pretty uninterested in extenuating circumstances in the enforcement of the law, so when Yamamoto came to direct power after their execution he was able to make the decision. Likewise he asked Shinji if they'd come for revenge, he obviously felt they'd something to be vengeful about, which hints he disagreed with their execution orders and he seemed to trust the Vizard to fight with the Shinigami against Aizen and the Arrancar even if they weren't fighting for Soul Society but rather Ichigo.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted April 6, 2010 Share Posted April 6, 2010 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]All that said, you've taken my points out of context. I was making the argument that it appears over the course of the manga that facing a similar type of reiatsu to one's own increases one's growth and development. If you want to refute that, refute that, please don't just pick at segments out of my argument and then take them out of context Rune.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1]I was hoping to bring the validity of the characters' growth you mentioned in question, actually, although I hadn't really tried to refute the similar reiatsu growth point. I saw your argument detailing that they had grown and used that as the core of my response. Even though what I had to say had roots in all of what you said as a whole, it was, aside from what I quoted, found in individual sentences inside paragraphs instead of the entire paragraphs themselves. If I were to quote every individual sentence (heaven forbid the entire paragraph), the number of individual sentences would have been too substantial and increased the size of an already large post while bogging down the part of your argument I paid closest attention to whilst responding. I do apologize if it appears I took pieces out of your argument to pick at, or brought them out of context (I thought I had addressed them with its original context in mind?) as that was never my intention. As for artificial growth, I consider activations of Shikai and Bankai, regardless of whether they belong to Ichigo or not, to be artificial as they are sustained only by external influences. To give an example, in order to "develop" your proficiency in Kido, you must either A) Increase the efficiency at which you release your energy B) Increase the maximum amount of energy you can generate C) Increase your understanding of how each kido functions Which, to me, means A) Technique B) Power C) Knowledge By going from Shikai to Bankai, you are not increasing any of the above internally, you are simply changing the medium through which it is expressed. If Ichigo's Shikai had a maximum output of 50% of Ichigo's power, and Ichigo's Bankai had a maximum output of 90% of his power, then you would see a marked increase in his combat ability even if he, himself, has not improved in the slightest. This is due not to his own *growth*, but to the increased efficiency of his weapon. We see this present in Kenpachi all of the time. His efficiency against Ichigo shot up considerably when he removed his eye patch (removing an accessory that reduced his power), and also when he began using standard Kenpo against Nnoitra (fighting with a more "advanced" form and technique). His internal power did not change -- Kenpachi always had that same amount of reiatsu, even before he removed the eye patch, and Kenpachi didn't suddenly get a huge dose of strength boost in the middle of the fight with Nnoitra even though he was suddenly able to strike with much more force. This is why I do not consider Shikai release, Bankai release, Vizard-acts (which creates a different spiritual medium through use of a mask), Artefacts, eye patch removal, or any such things to be an indication of any internal growth, but external "power-ups". I suppose you could say that these power-ups do have their own growth attached, as well, and I do admit that I have given the characters less credit than they have deserved in light of this. Even if Ichigo's bankai was "more efficient" than his shikai, to say that Ichigo hasn't made progress in using his bankai to its utmost would be faulty. If I was to look at it from the same perspective that I would look at Kido, then, yes, I can find some growth in there, as can I find some growth as a Vizard (the increased time-limit is an obvious example). Even if Ichigo's bankai, going from the aforementioned theoretically efficiencies, had 90% efficiency inherently, if he brought it up to 110%, this is an obvious improvement on his part. These are item-specific growths as opposed to overall growths, however -- Ichigo's bankai mastery should not translate to an improvement to himself unless he specifically is using his bankai (unless, of course, certain areas overlap). I also originally used the argument that Sado, Orihime, and Ishida didn't increase in the "power" category but were focused more along the lines of "technique" and "knowledge" to say that they haven't experienced much growth. That was an admittedly faulty way to measure them (purely on a reiatsu standpoint), and I retract most of the viewpoint with consideration to my point above. I still say that Orihime's growth is fairly stunted because she's able to neither really retain it or perform at maximum efficiency even when she wants to (it's similar to shooting at an object repeatedly -- if you do it enough, you'll get a bullseye eventually). Ichigo had that problem earlier, however (mentioned by Ulquiorra as wildly fluctuating power levels), so I won't write her off completely -- maybe she'll surprise me one day. The decreases in the time it takes for her to heal people is also something of note and something that wasn't taken into full consideration prior, especially her more recent "successes". [quote]I never said anything about their need to feed. Grand Fisher and Shrieker were genuinely evil beings who did evil things because it seemed to amuse them. If we take other Hollows who seem to act like wild-animals hunting for food I suppose there's an argument to be made that they're ultimately tragic creatures. In the end however, and Neliel herself admits this, they're monsters that need to be destroyed/purified.[/quote]The problem arises in that you can't take individuals such as King Fisher or Shrieker to classify the whole. Aizen is a shinigami, and he has done some decidedly dastardly deeds. The shinigami were also not presented in a wholly pleasant light in the beginning of the series, either -- Byakuya is a shining example of somebody who performed "evil" actions even though he, himself, can hardly be called evil. Hawks may snatch up cute little bunnies, but I don't consider them evil. It's in their nature. Why, then, does everything change when we're talking about the concept of humans being prey? Hollows that eat humans are, for the most part, not consciously thinking beings. They do not wake up one day and go "Oh, I think I'm going to go eat a human". In fact, the vast majority of lower hollows seem to eat others because they are in pain, and the higher hollows do so to retain their sanity. Even if Neliel says, in her opinion, that hollows are monsters that need to be purified/destroyed, there are also hollows that believe that Shinigami shouldn't prosecute them so cruelly. Saying that because a human-sympathizer like Nel states hollows should be destroyed makes it true is similar to saying all Shinigami should try to fight "on equal ground" because Ichigo wanted Ulquiorra to "even it" after awakening from his Hollow Mk II state. I highly doubt any shinigami aside from Ichigo would even think about doing such an admittedly insane thing, as I'm fairly certain most "sane" Hollow would disagree with Nel's statement with great vigor. [/SIZE][SIZE=1][quote]Likewise he asked Shinji if they'd come for revenge, he obviously felt they'd something to be vengeful about, which hints he disagreed with their execution orders and he seemed to trust the Vizard to fight with the Shinigami against Aizen and the Arrancar even if they weren't fighting for Soul Society but rather Ichigo.[/quote][/SIZE][SIZE=1]It appears we took different meanings from his question, then. If I recall, he asked if they had come for revenge and then moved his hand to his sword to prepare to bring it out if he had to. From his actions, it felt more like Yamamoto was trying to figure out if he had another enemy on the battlefield as opposed to sharing sympathy for their condition at the council's hand. Once they declared they were here for Ichigo or to kill Aizen, they were chalked up as a beneficial force and left at that. Yamamoto certainly couldn't exactly afford to be picky at this point, now, could he? Any other time and he would probably have tried to exterminate them. ~~~~~ [/SIZE][quote name='"Gavin"][SIZE=1']I think maybe it might be more accurate (and feel free to disagree with me here) that based on what we've seen so far, development occurs more quickly when fighting a similar type of reiatsu. We saw Ichigo develop quickly when fighting other Shinigami, but his early encounters with Grimmjow ended in very obvious defeat but as Ichigo began to gain control and develop his Hollow powers through fighting other Hollows (Shinji comments that Ichigo isn't developing by training with the Vizards) until ultimately he closes the gap with Grimmjow and then surpasses his power and the same thing along with further evolution for Ichigo occurs against Ulquiorra. I think Grimmjow even asks Ichigo directly if he became stronger from training, or just fighting.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1]I honestly think this is coincidence. If you consider a Vizard to be a shinigami-hollow hybrid, then their reiatsu would be distinct from either hollows or shinigami. I think the main reason why Ichigo was unable to progress with the Vizards was because he had neither the resolve at the time, nor did he feel he was in any actual real danger. If you recall his training with Urahara, Urahara specifically put his life in danger, pushed his life to the edge, and I think that is something the Vizards neglected to do as they weren't aiming for that. Ichigo especially seems to gain more from battle than those around him, although this is hard to say since the higher ranking shinigami don't appear to fight for their life nearly as often as Ichigo has. I am reminded of the growth the shinigami experienced as they fought their enemy Espada, however -- did Hitsugaya not improve in his skills by fighting an enemy with a similar style attack? Another of his abilities -- being able to force precipitation -- was brought to light, at the least. Same thing with Kenpachi against Nnoitra, as Kenpachi using Kenpo was a technique we hadn't seen in the past. Mayuri's assistant and special drug was showcased as well. These shinigami did not fight against someone with a similar reiatsu, but with a similar fighting style and personality, the most obvious examples being Szayel vs Mayuri and Hitsugaya vs Harribel.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 6, 2010 Share Posted April 6, 2010 [SIZE=1][quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1]I do apologize if it appears I took pieces out of your argument to pick at, or brought them out of context (I thought I had addressed them with its original context in mind?) as that was never my intention.[/quote] [/SIZE][SIZE=1] No worries, having read this post I see now I was misunderstanding what you meant by growth so that's where the crossed wires are coming from. [quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1]As for artificial growth, I consider activations of Shikai and Bankai, regardless of whether they belong to Ichigo or not, to be artificial as they are sustained only by external influences.[/SIZE][SIZE=1]We see this present in Kenpachi all of the time. His efficiency against Ichigo shot up considerably when he removed his eye patch (removing an accessory that reduced his power), and also when he began using standard Kenpo against Nnoitra (fighting with a more "advanced" form and technique). His internal power did not change -- Kenpachi always had that same amount of reiatsu, even before he removed the eye patch, and Kenpachi didn't suddenly get a huge dose of strength boost in the middle of the fight with Nnoitra even though he was suddenly able to strike with much more force.[/quote] [/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]OK fair enough, I've been considering a Shinigami/Quincy/Hollow/etc improvement in any area of their arsenal, such as attaining shikai or bankai to be growth or development but there's argument to be made for both ways of measuring. If we're arguing base reiatsu, such as demonstrated by Kenpachi I think there's still an argument to be made that Ichigo has still developed substantially. Like Kenpachi Ichigo's zanpakutou is in a constant shikai state because neither of them are capable of limiting their power that much to fully seal their swords. Equally we know Ichigo's bankai doesn't actually give him a power increase, it allows him to wield his cleaver-like zanpakutou in a much more combat-friendly daito form (admittedly this is a change of medium, Kenpachi is more fortunate his shikai lends itself well to sword-battles) as well as giving him a phenomenal speed boost. Therefore even in bankai, Ichigo is still only operating of the same level of reiatsu as he was before. When he first attempts to rescue Rukia (on the bridge) Ukitake comments that the unknown reiatsu is "clearly captain level" and both Byakuya and Rukia comment that Ichigo's power has increased substantially from when he was in the real world. Since his fight with Ulquiorra, perhaps even before, from Ichigo's discussion with Unohana we know that Ichigo's base reiatsu has grown to the point it is twice that of a regular captain at full power. [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1] In terms of skills, Ichigo has shown his flash-steps to be comparable to any other master, and his sword-fighting ability seems to have developed to the point he could fight fairly equally against a highly trained swordsman like Byakuya having previously swung his zanpakutou around in a rather ungainly fashion. His ability to manipulate his Getsuga Tenshou in both size, style and power (which would cover technique, knowledge and power) has also improved considerably since he learned the technique. Maybe I'm taking what you mean by growth up wrong again though. That and I've always firmly believed that Kenpachi got a power-up off-screen before Hueco Mundo if he was able to fight against Nnoitra when he could only draw with Ichigo in Soul Society, and Ichigo knew he had to exceed his previous strength to face Grimmjow. [/SIZE][SIZE=1][quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1]The problem arises in that you can't take individuals such as King Fisher or Shrieker to classify the whole. Aizen is a shinigami, and he has done some decidedly dastardly deeds. The shinigami were also not presented in a wholly pleasant light in the beginning of the series, either -- Byakuya is a shining example of somebody who performed "evil" actions even though he, himself, can hardly be called evil. Even if Neliel says, in her opinion, that hollows are monsters that need to be purified/destroyed, there are also hollows that believe that Shinigami shouldn't prosecute them so cruelly. Saying that because a human-sympathizer like Nel states hollows should be destroyed makes it true is similar to saying all Shinigami should try to fight "on equal ground" because Ichigo wanted Ulquiorra to "even it" after awakening from his Hollow Mk II state. I highly doubt any shinigami aside from Ichigo would even think about doing such an admittedly insane thing, as I'm fairly certain most "sane" Hollow would disagree with Nel's statement with great vigor.[/SIZE][SIZE=1][/quote] Those are fair points, I'm sure like Zommari there are Hollows who consider themselves merely another type of spiritual beings who have a right to exist despite the fact they are forced to feed on other spiritual being as part of their nature. I suppose it just boils down to the balance of souls between worlds again, much like the Quincy were destroyed because they were annihilating rather that purifying Hollows and therefore destroying the souls that the Hollow had consumed as well Hollows negatively affect the balance because they don't replace the souls they consume over their lifetime until they're purified. The would simply consume until there were no souls left other than Hollows, whether they are good or evil doesn't really factor into it in that case, it's a simple case of necessary preservation. I suppose I should say that I equally don't consider the Shinigami to be wholly good, it's clear they're willing to do morally wrong in what they view as being necessary. What occurred with the Vizards and Rukia merely reinforced that point. [/SIZE][SIZE=1][quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1]It appears we took different meanings from his question, then. If I recall, he asked if they had come for revenge and then moved his hand to his sword to prepare to bring it out if he had to. From his actions, it felt more like Yamamoto was trying to figure out if he had another enemy on the battlefield as opposed to sharing sympathy for their condition at the council's hand. Once they declared they were here for Ichigo or to kill Aizen, they were chalked up as a beneficial force and left at that. Yamamoto certainly couldn't exactly afford to be picky at this point, now, could he? Any other time and he would probably have tried to exterminate them.[/quote] Personally I think he only put his hand on his sword to defend himself if the Vizard proved to be out for revenge against the Shinigami forces present. I don't think it'd be mutually exclusive for him to feel that the Vizards were unduly sentenced to death by Central 46 while at the same time trying to work out if they were enemies or not. Remember that four of the Vizards had served as apparently loyal captains and officers under Yamamoto until they were experimented on by Aizen and forced to flee with Urahara. Given he seemingly forgave Ukitake and Kyouraku for standing against him over the execution, as well as accepting Ichigo's nature and working with him, I can't see him ordering the deaths of the Vizard unless they proved dangerous. [/SIZE] [SIZE=1][quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1]I honestly think this is coincidence. If you consider a Vizard to be a shinigami-hollow hybrid, then their reiatsu would be distinct from either hollows or shinigami. I think the main reason why Ichigo was unable to progress with the Vizards was because he had neither the resolve at the time, nor did he feel he was in any actual real danger. If you recall his training with Urahara, Urahara specifically put his life in danger, pushed his life to the edge, and I think that is something the Vizards neglected to do as they weren't aiming for that. Ichigo especially seems to gain more from battle than those around him, although this is hard to say since the higher ranking shinigami don't appear to fight for their life nearly as often as Ichigo has.[/quote] Fair enough it's just my theory for the moment with some circumstantial evidence to back it up. [/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted April 6, 2010 Share Posted April 6, 2010 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]No worries, having read this post I see now I was misunderstanding what you meant by growth so that's where the crossed wires are coming from.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] Yes, I noticed this as well, but thought better against bringing it up in my last post. I consider "growth" to be wholly internal improvements whereas you are applying "growth" to mean "Battle Proficiency". My growth translates into battle proficiency later on down the line but limits the number of external variables. I measure it like this because it's far more reliable, in my opinion. If two Ichigo clones were to go at each other, but one had Bankai only and one had Shikai only, then the Bankai Ichigo would clearly win, even though they are both essentially the same. This means that Ichigo's "growth" would be wholly based upon his different states -- if he activates hollow, then he improves. If he loses it, he declines. Considering that the base state of Ichigo in either form can be the same with varying battle proficiencies, I try to avoid basing it off of that and consider it a separate value. In the case of Bankai Ichigo vs Shikai Ichigo, their growth is the same, their base is the same, but the external variable (their Zanpakutou) modifies the base in such a way that the Bankai Ichigo has a far greater "Battle Proficiency". [/SIZE][quote name='"Gavin"][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]If we're arguing base reiatsu, such as demonstrated by Kenpachi I think there's still an argument to be made that Ichigo has still developed substantially. Like Kenpachi Ichigo's zanpakutou is in a constant shikai state because neither of them are capable of limiting their power that much to fully seal their swords.[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1] Ichigo has always had an enormous amount of Reiatsu, as evinced in the abnormally large size of his normal Zanpakutou. If you recall, Rukia herself stated that she'd never seen a Zanpakutou that large before. Now, considering that not every shinigami starts out with full control over their reiatsu, I would bet that she had some run-ins with a few good number of shinigami students that had sizable swords, and that she was not only impressed, but downright "O-O" when she noticed his sword, I believe it is safe to say that Ichigo has shown a much, much greater base reiatsu than anyone else Rukia has seen (although, this is only what Rukia has *seen*) when starting out. This is also the reason why he is unable to seal his sword once more. It is not so much a matter of he has MOAR MOAR MOAR Reiatsu, but that he *still* lacks the fundamental control necessary to seal it. To put it one way, Yamamoto's sword is almost always in its sealed state, and Yamamoto is not lacking in Reiatsu at all. [/SIZE][quote name='"Gavin"][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]Equally we know Ichigo's bankai doesn't actually give him a power increase, it allows him to wield his cleaver-like zanpakutou in a much more combat-friendly daito form (admittedly this is a change of medium, Kenpachi is more fortunate his shikai lends itself well to sword-battles) as well as giving him a phenomenal speed boost.[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]Actually, Ichigo's Bankai does give him a power increase in the form of enhanced reaction time and a far more focused reiatsu. Because Ichigo lacks a sizable amount of control over his reiatsu, he is able to neither seal his sword or use his reiatsu to its fullest potential, as it is constantly spilling forth from him and, typically, just not used correctly. By switching into Bankai, the Zanpakutou essentially *forces* Ichigo's reiatsu to become more focused, easier to use, and overall just brings Ichigo's weakest area up to par. Even if he is operating on the same level of reiatsu, the amount of reiatsu he can effectively use at once, and the efficiency at which he uses it, is increased *entirely* due to his bankai state. There is a reason he cannot reach the same speeds in shikai as he can in bankai. There is a reason why his Getsuga Tenshou is more powerful in his bankai state. I must also remind that the form a Zanpakutou takes is largely based upon the wielder as well. I cannot, for the life of me, see Ichigo wielding a weapon like Zabimaru, for example. A "cleaver" shikai is probably the best form for Ichigo's fighting style and personality. The cleaver lacks a guard (prioritizes overpowering offense) and is weighted in such a way with a long handle to emphasize two-handed grips with a possible one-handed style. It has no real hilt or sheathe, with nothing but a cloth acting as both. In the end, it emphasizes combat above all, and an aggressive style, at that. [/COLOR][/SIZE][quote="Gavin"][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black] Since his fight with Ulquiorra, perhaps even before, from Ichigo's discussion with Unohana we know that Ichigo's base reiatsu has grown to the point it is twice that of a regular captain at full power.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1][COLOR=Black] I am also skeptical about Unohana stating that Ichigo's base reiatsu has grown to be twice that of a regular captain. I do recall her saying that it was incredibly high, but not twice as much. If I do recall, he actually stated that the outfit he wore was a good indication of his power level, and that when he stated this, Unohana didn't believe him because he was already at Captain level strength. Unfortunately, we do not know just how strong of an indicator his outfit truly is or when this plot device really began to take effect. Ichigo has fought many, many times in bankai state but I have very rarely (if ever?) seen him start stripping down. It feels more like a ploy by Kubo to simply show off Ichigo's prowess in a sort of... non-abrupt way. It's much easier to have Ichigo give that explanation and Unohana say "what? But he's already *this* powerful..." than to have Ichigo say "Oh man, I'm only at about twenty percent of my power level, think you can patch me up?" I wouldn't put too much stock in this, as it's very unreliable. We *can* take from it that Ichigo has more reiatsu than a typical captain, however. That much we can do. How much reiatsu did Ichigo have in the beginning? Well, he was very unskilled in the way of fighting with a sword, and his reiatsu control was pretty much nonexistent, but I'd say that Ichigo had at least lieutenant-level reiatsu when he first became a shinigami. At least. Which means that Ichigo has gone up from lieutenant to captain class. ~~~ And, yes, Ichigo has improved substantially in his swordplay, and, while I think his non-bankai flash-steps may not match up to the more advanced captains, I will say that he can perform them well. I can say the same for his Getsuga Tenshou, that it has improved quite a bit. But is Ichigo really reaching his potential? To be 100% honest, I vastly prefer Hollow Ichigo to Ichigo, and it has been shown time and time again that Hollow Ichigo is far more skilled than Ichigo in all areas. [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]Ichigo still has yet to use his Shikai in a ranged style, something that Hollow Ichigo used without a problem during one of their earlier meetings. Hollow Ichigo was even able to take on Byakuya, unlike regular Ichigo, and it can be argued that Ichigo won that battle only because of Hollow Ichigo taking control.[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black] They share they same body and base reiatsu, it's just that one of them knows how to use it to more effect. I consider Ichigo's triumph over him to be a depressing fluke and the hollow personality to be a constant reminder that while Ichigo has high reiatsu and a powerful Zanpakutou, his efficiency in using them are depressingly low compared to what they could be. ~~~ [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1]As for the off-screen power-up of Kenpachi... not quite. [URL]http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/15/[/URL] Kenpachi knew Kendo before he entered the Gotei 13, apparently. Before he was allowed his captain's position. [/SIZE][SIZE=1][quote name='"Gavin"][SIZE=1']I suppose it just boils down to the balance of souls between worlds again, much like the Quincy were destroyed because they were annihilating rather that purifying Hollows and therefore destroying the souls that the Hollow had consumed as well Hollows negatively affect the balance because they don't replace the souls they consume over their lifetime until they're purified. The would simply consume until there were no souls left other than Hollows, whether they are good or evil doesn't really factor into it in that case, it's a simple case of necessary preservation.[/SIZE][/quote]And, yet, Shinigami don't exactly reincarnate into humans again, do they? Just when does a soul in Soul Society reincarnate at all? What would happen if the shinigami's natural enemy, hollows, were to die off? Would the number of shinigami grow until the very balance of souls tilted? Hollows are a natural part of existence, just as natural disasters are. Things that may seem destructive are actually very important. Just to give one example, in the past, there was a very serious stomach problem circulating among humans. Rather than in the poor, however, as is common with diseases and illness, it was found primarily in the elite and rich. What had happened is that their incredibly pure drinking water contained so little bacteria that their stomach's natural defense against the bacteria no longer had anything to work against. Without the bacteria, the immune response essentially began to target an otherwise healthy stomach, causing great pain to the victim. [/SIZE][SIZE=1] [quote="Gavin"][SIZE=1]Personally I think he only put his hand on his sword to defend himself if the Vizard proved to be out for revenge against the Shinigami forces present. I don't think it'd be mutually exclusive for him to feel that the Vizards were unduly sentenced to death by Central 46 while at the same time trying to work out if they were enemies or not. Remember that four of the Vizards had served as apparently loyal captains and officers under Yamamoto until they were experimented on by Aizen and forced to flee with Urahara. Given he seemingly forgave Ukitake and Kyouraku for standing against him over the execution, as well as accepting Ichigo's nature and working with him, I can't see him ordering the deaths of the Vizard unless they proved dangerous.[/SIZE][/quote] Actually, I do believe all of the original Vizards served under Yamamoto either as captains or lieutenants.[/SIZE] [SIZE=1]And, yes, that is what I am referring to -- he obviously felt he may have some reason to defend himself and, while it may be a stretch to say that he would try to exterminate them given the other circumstances, it is hard to say that he sympathizes with them. I simply don't see that fitting with Yamamoto's character, to be honest.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 6, 2010 Share Posted April 6, 2010 [quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]Ichigo has always had an enormous amount of Reiatsu, as evinced in the abnormally large size of his normal Zanpakutou. If you recall, Rukia herself stated that she'd never seen a Zanpakutou that large before.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] True but Urahara stated as he was carving Ichigo's sword into pieces, and I think Renji said something similar, that Ichigo's sword is "Just big. There's no spiritual power in it. It's just a fluffy and swollen object in the shape of a sword. That's why it breaks up so easily like that." We know from Kenpachi that when two zanpakutous collide, it weaker one gets cut through, so evidently Ichigo's normal output of reiatsu back then was lower than Urahara's and Byakuya's (even though the latter's power was sealed to a fifth of normal). Equally Isshin when fighting Grand Fisher in his Arrancar form states that all Shinigami of captain class would be swinging around skyscraper sized zanpakutou's if they weren't able to properly control their output. Like Grand Fisher, Ichigo initially has little or no control over his reiatsu output which results in a large sword which is cut through very easily by stronger, more condensed swords. [/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]This is also the reason why he is unable to seal his sword once more. It is not so much a matter of he has MOAR MOAR MOAR Reiatsu, but that he *still* lacks the fundamental control necessary to seal it. To put it one way, Yamamoto's sword is almost always in its sealed state, and Yamamoto is not lacking in Reiatsu at all.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] That's exactly what I meant when I said it, like Zaraki (and apparently all full-release users) Ichigo lacks the control over his large reiatsu output to be able to properly seal his sword. Yamamoto very likely has/had a stronger reiatsu than Ichigo and yet was able to seal the vast majority of his power into a normal sealed sword. It feeds back into Isshin's point to Grand Fisher, you cannot judge a Shinigami (or any spiritual being) by the size of their zanpakutou. I think the problem of judging a Shinigami's growth based on his zanpakutou's sealed form is that we know a zanpakutou and Shinigami (and inner Hollow) are all essentially the same being, thus the more of their zanpakutou's power they are able to bring out (such as Ichigo did against Zaraki) is actually just them being able to reach further into their own well of power. Thus bankai is a zanpakutou's power fully released, or in actuality, it is a Shinigami's power fully released for combat. The problem comes, as Hitsugaya points out because of his immature bankai, that bankai uses far, far more spiritual energy than a sealed sword or shikai therefore a Shinigami can only maintain that form for so longer before their internal battery has to recharge and they're forced to lower their reiatsu output again. Essentially it's still all always been their power used, the problem comes with maintaining that output level. As a Shinigami gets stronger, their ability to maintain their bankai becomes better. For Ichigo these seems more demonstrated by the length of time he's able to use his Hollow powers before his mask shatters. It's sort of the same for Arrancar, they seal the majority of their power into their zanpakutous to be released when they need it for combat which enables them to likely better conserve their power, or go without consuming for power as Yammy does. I think we're supposed to view shikai and resurreccion, and bankai and segunda etapa the same way. [/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]By switching into Bankai, the Zanpakutou essentially *forces* Ichigo's reiatsu to become more focused, easier to use, and overall just brings Ichigo's weakest area up to par. Even if he is operating on the same level of reiatsu, the amount of reiatsu he can effectively use at once, and the efficiency at which he uses it, is increased *entirely* due to his bankai state. There is a reason he cannot reach the same speeds in shikai as he can in bankai. There is a reason why his Getsuga Tenshou is more powerful in his bankai state.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black] That may be true, but when fighting against Grimmjow the first time, Grimmjow directly asks, having fought Ichigo using shikai and then after he switches to bankai (and Grimmjow is able to bare-hand Ichigo's sword at this point) is increasing his speed all his bankai does ? Maybe this was just a jibe of course, as when he's fighting Dordonii Ichigo can't cut him with his shikai but manages to do so with his bankai. That for me is where the Kenpachi's power-up problem comes from, he's able to cut Kenpachi with his shikai, then can't cut Grimmjow with his bankai, then Kenpachi is able to cut Nnoitra initially with the same level of power he was supposedly using against Ichigo. Finishing Nnoitra off after he uses his resurreccion required kendo and to be honest given he nearly died against Ichigo I can't imagine why he didn't use it there too. I had a theory a while back that Hollowification actually weakened Ichigo as some of his reiatsu was going towards suppressing his Hollow on an unconscious level and the effective leap he made by mastering his mask was in part that reiatsu being used in a different manner along with the Hollow reiatsu. I think that better explains why the captains had such little trouble with the Espada when Ichigo had very obvious difficulty. [/COLOR][/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]A "cleaver" shikai is probably the best form for Ichigo's fighting style and personality.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black] Maybe, but if you compare the way Ichigo fights with his daito in bankai as compared to the cleaver in shikai, I imagine a daito shikai or regular katana might suite him better. To be honest I thought the only one who looks in any way comfortable using that cleaver is Hollow Ichigo.[/COLOR] [/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]I am also skeptical about Unohana stating that Ichigo's base reiatsu has grown to be twice that of a regular captain. It feels more like a ploy by Kubo to simply show off Ichigo's prowess in a sort of... non-abrupt way. It's much easier to have Ichigo give that explanation and Unohana say "what? But he's already *this* powerful..." than to have Ichigo say "Oh man, I'm only at about twenty percent of my power level, think you can patch me up?"[/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black] It was somewhat contrived yes, but at the same time I see no reason for Ichigo to claim his reiatsu was only at half its normal level if it wasn't and the mistake was Unohana's for assuming just because Ichigo was outputting a captain level reiatsu that that was his normal level. I think the most likely cause for this was Unohana had seen Ichigo's reiatsu level in Soul Society and it was roughly the same, maybe a bit higher than what it was after she encountered him again in Hueco Mundo. Unohana has always shown to be a rather sharp mind so her making a simple like that doesn't really make sense. [/COLOR][quote name='Rune'][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]But is Ichigo really reaching his potential? To be 100% honest, I vastly prefer Hollow Ichigo to Ichigo, and it has been shown time and time again that Hollow Ichigo is far more skilled than Ichigo in all areas. [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]They share they same body and base reiatsu, it's just that one of them knows how to use it to more effect.[/quote] I agree actually that Ichigo hasn't come anywhere near reaching his full potential yet, I think the reason Hollow Ichigo demonstrates such proficiency with Zangetsu is the same reason Zangetsu himself is able to, both somehow have supremely intimate knowledge of the zanpakutou and its abilities. Zangetsu like all zanpakutou understand and have full access to their own powers at creation. Hollow Ichigo and Zangetsu have both shown they're merely parts of one another at different times. The differences comes in that Hollow Ichigo seems reliant on Ichigo himself reaching higher levels of power with the zanpakutou (like bankai) before he too can use it. Personally I do love watching Hollow Ichigo fight out of how interesting a style it is. [/COLOR][/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]And, yet, Shinigami don't exactly reincarnate into humans again, do they? Just when does a soul in Soul Society reincarnate at all? What would happen if the shinigami's natural enemy, hollows, were to die off? Would the number of shinigami grow until the very balance of souls tilted? Hollows are a natural part of existence, just as natural disasters are. Things that may seem destructive are actually very important.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1]Based on what Urahara said about the balance between worlds, when Shinigami die it makes sense that they, like regular souls in Soul Society, are reincarnated back to the real world. We know most souls naturally go to Soul Society, only certain ones which require konso, and then Hollows require purification. Otherwise we're left asking exactly what happens to those souls that "die" in Soul Society (Byakuya's parents, Hisana, Kira's parents). [/SIZE][SIZE=1] In comparison to Hollows though there seem to be considerably less Shinigami, as far as we know the Gotei 13, the Omnitsukidou, the Kidou Corps and the Academy make up the entirety of the Shinigami forces and I would consider that to be probably at max no more than a few thousand overall. By comparison we know that Grimmjow's group alone has consumed supposedly three thousand other Hollows (which meant more than 3,000 individual souls) in their quest to become Vasto Lordes, and that Aaroniero consumed over 30,000. Hollows may indeed evolve naturally, but their inability to find equilibrium with their environment without outside intervention and culling makes them extremely detrimental to the balance. The fact is the balance doesn't occur between Hueco Mundo, the real world and Soul Society, instead just the latter two. They're an unbalancing factor like the Quincy. To be honest though, I've always wondered exactly how Soul Society is going to cope with the deaths of all the Espada and Arrancar, when those souls are reincarnated, if individually there are going to be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or even millions of souls at once, and that's not even counting Fura and the Menos he spawned. [/SIZE][quote name='Rune'][SIZE=1]Actually, I do believe all of the original Vizards served under Yamamoto either as captains or lieutenants. [/SIZE][SIZE=1]And, yes, that is what I am referring to -- he obviously felt he may have some reason to defend himself and, while it may be a stretch to say that he would try to exterminate them given the other circumstances, it is hard to say that he sympathizes with them. I simply don't see that fitting with Yamamoto's character, to be honest.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] Heh I went back and changed "captains" to "captains and officers" and forgot to change the four part, silly me. Maybe it is in the middle with Yamamoto, they're not Shinigami any more so he doesn't feel he owes them anything, and was just trying to ascertain if they had even more enemies to deal with. I think saying he'd have tried to exterminate them would take it a bit far. [/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magus Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 [font=franklin gothic medium][color=darkred]I will read yall huge wall of text and comment on it, eventually. :D So Gin's bankai is that his sword gets even longer than his shikai. While I don't think it's lame (it's good for assassinations), I do hope there's more to it than that, or at the very least, more to Gin than that. At least his bankai matches his shikai's ability unlike Soifons.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 [SIZE=1]Heh if you think that's bad, I toss out posts like that pretty regulars in the Jedi Knight forum of the SWTOR boards. I consider OB kind of my rest boards by comparison. On the topic of Gin's bankai, you have to love the name "God Slayer Spear" instantly causing fanboys to assume Gin is going to backstab and finish off Aizen due to his proclamation of godhood. I actually found this chapter quite good for characterisation, Ichigo has apparently become a very skill swordsman if he's able to read the intentions of his opponents from just their sword moments. The fact he could read nothing from Gin is unsurprisingly really, dollars to donuts nobody but Gin knows who the real Gin is. The fact he opened his eyes twice in this chapter, which is pretty much half of the amount of times he's ever opened his eyes is also cool. Looking forward to next week. Also Aizen's kidou attack, God damn. [/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawliet Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 I like that Gin's bankai is similar to his shikai, while I was trying to guess what it was going to be before I saw the chapter spoilers, I dismissed the fact that his bankai is his shikai but bigger theory and decided that his bankai was going to be unrelated, like soifon's, to his shikai. Although thinking about it, being able to cut anyone within 8ish (not sure if i mental mathed that right) miles of you is kinda bad ***. He could take out entire armies before they even got close enough to sense his presence, or wreck a whole town. Since it seems to be pretty fast too it seems like he could go to town sniping people off from a distance and launching surprise attacks on anyone around. Anyway, I like that Ichigo wounded him in the end of the chapter. While I do like Gin I never really imagined him to be to far above the other Captains. Yes he is a genius, but so are most of the other captains right and Ichigo has beaten his fair share of captains so it makes sense... Also, I now have an unrelated question, Tosen seem like he could beat Mr. 6th espada pretty easily, but Grimmy gave Ichigo trouble while he was using his mask, but Kenpachi who Ichigo bearly beat without his mask kinda casually decided that he was going to use kendo, which he doesn't use cause he doesn't like it, to one shot the 5th. Kenpachi also previously beat Tosen, without kendo. So, how strong is an unmasked Tosen? There needs to be a list released of how strong each person is, or someone needs to make one... but that'll never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 [quote name='Lawliet']There needs to be a list released of how strong each person is, or someone needs to make one... but that'll never happen.[/quote] That sounds like a challenge, my good sir and/or madam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 [quote name='Lawliet']There needs to be a list released of how strong each person is, or someone needs to make one... but that'll never happen.[/quote] [SIZE=1]Problem is that "power levels" for the lack of a better word don't seem to stay consistent in Bleach. The one you brought up is pretty glaring, but to be honest the worst one for me is Yammy/Byakuya/Kenpachi where Ichigo beat the latter two in combat and couldn't even wound Yammy after his release.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magus Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 [font=franklin gothic medium][color=darkred]I think you're pretty much asking to have your head go for a loop if you try to figure out the power rankings in this series. Who would've thought that Toushiro could stay on par with Halibel?[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 [quote name='Magus'][FONT=franklin gothic medium][COLOR=darkred]Who would've thought that Toushiro could stay on par with Halibel?[/COLOR][/FONT][/quote] [SIZE=1]*Sighs* I just remembered how giddy I was when I thought she'd cut him in half. And then that it was all just trolling from Kishi.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magus Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 [font=franklin gothic medium][color=darkred]I think every Toushiro hater was giddy at that moment lol. It really pissed me off that Kubo would copout like that. So I read M7's translation of ch. 398, and it's pretty much the same thing. Hard to tell if it's translation error, an error on Kubo's end, or if Kubo actually planned that. I think Gavin has a point saying that that moment wasn't suppose to be shocking to us but to Ichigo, but at the same time it does feel a little "meh-ish" because one would think Ichigo is a cross between 3 species. Turns out that Ichigo's just another "Gohan". I also read a different translation for 399. Gotta say Gin's a funny one. Speaking of which, I'd really like to see Gin and Byakuya cross blades. Gotta speak about the art once more since Isshin's been looking funny/weird for the past 2 chapters compared to his dynamic entry in 397.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted April 15, 2010 Share Posted April 15, 2010 [SIZE=1]Gotta say 400 was actually quite a good chapter, feels like we're back in the Soul Society arc where Ichigo was properly analysing his opponents rather than just relying on his accidental latest power boost (and Orihime's whining) to get the job done for him. Gin is as usual his magnificent self, and I'm hoping Kubo doesn't kill him off in this fight (or honestly at all), although I liked Tousen as well but I suppose we got a decent ending for him. Ichimaru's "scary, scary kid" thought when he realises Ichigo has just worked out how his bankai works in two attacks, given Ichimaru's own acknowledged genius was also quite nice. Kinda of a surprise to see Aizen has supposedly reached his limits in his fight against Isshin already, given the way he dominated all the other captains, admittedly using Kyouka, it puts Isshin's power way, way about anyone else in the Gotei we've seen fight with the exception of Yamamoto. Methinks the Royal Guard theories may prove correct. [/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magus Posted April 16, 2010 Share Posted April 16, 2010 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]Gotta say 400 was actually quite a good chapter, feels like we're back in the Soul Society arc where Ichigo was properly analysing his opponents rather than just relying on his accidental latest power boost (and Orihime's whining) to get the job done for him. [/SIZE][/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium][color=darkred]Ichigo was analyzing Ulquiorra before they went all transform-y, and even though it was for a brief moment, and in the end he still got punk'd, he did do a tad bit analyzing on Aizen. But it still feels like it's been forever since Ichigo actually went through some type of thought process. I agree, though, this was indeed a good chapter, but I have to admit I almost caught myself about to say that this was a rather dull chapter until someone actually pointed out the speed of Gin's zanpakuto. For some reason the first time I read that it didn't sink in. Gin's bankai is very dangerous, and this can certainly prove to be a rather interesting/great fight between the 2. The speed of sound, comparing that to, lets say Rurouni Kenshin, that's equivalent to being faster than what the naked-eye can see. (Think Soujiro's shuukuchi) Ichigo's eyesight is really good being able to keep up with the extending rate so far. (I'd hope so seeing how he's been fighting people that made his bankai look like child's play, especially Ulquiorra) With that being said, on to Isshin and Aizen. Honestly, those words weren't really impressing. I want to see the words "BANKAI". I will admit that it makes me fairly curious what Aizen is about to pull with the Hougyoku, but I don't care about that thing. I want to see what this guy's bankai is about. He already has a cheap ability dangit. Unless his bankai can't do crap against those who're not under hypnosis either. :confused: hmmm... Back to Ichigo analyzing for a minute though. Oh how I wish someone taught him some kido spells. Clearly we see that Ichigo uses his head, and while I give Ichigo a lot flack about charging in blindly, I really do appreciate the fact that we do see him think his way through a lot of things. Give this boy some kido and he'd really be a force to be reckoned with. Seriously, we see the damage and the decisiveness Byakuya can do with Kido, and I think that's what makes him one of the best captains/characters SS has to offer. And just think, the effectiveness of Tensa Zangetsu+Rikujokurou+Getsuga Tensho. (or any binding spell for that matter) Ichigo would literally be one of the baddest dudes in Bleach, and not because of some trope of being the main character. I know I'd enjoy seeing him fight a lot more if he were to learn kido and incorporated them into his battles. And I mean learn them. Don't half### it like Renji.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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