Manga Naruto Manga [Warning: Spoilers]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]That's one of the things that's disappointed me the most about this fight so far, that Sasuke is using none of his own original moves, they're all variants of moves he knew already i.e. Chidori from Kakashi and the snake-jutsu from Orochimaru.

I really expected after two and a half years he'd display something new in this fight, I mean we saw stuff from Jiraiya nobody ever even dreamed of, and yet Sasuke for being a genius is just spamming the same moves he's always used. It's a little lame, I want to see something that shows his treason was worth it.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

We have to remember that this is a shounen manga, and what's the formula for shounen manga? Build, build, reveal. So from the start of the fight, we needed to expect that Sasuke's techniques would continually build in power, then right when it seemed hopeless, he would reveal whatever he had to reveal. Right now we've come to that point. Kishimoto will have [I]something[/I] happen. I do agree it gets old when we see awesome characters simply mimicking their teachers, but it's only realistic that Sasuke would have incorporated some of Orochimaru's techniques into his fighting style. And, let's give Kishi a break. At least he's showing us variants of snake-jutsu that are new.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']I do agree it gets old when we see awesome characters simply mimicking their teachers, but it's only realistic that Sasuke would have incorporated some of Orochimaru's techniques into his fighting style. And, let's give Kishi a break. At least he's showing us variants of snake-jutsu that are new.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I don't think anyone didn't expect Sasuke to use some of Orochimaru's jutsu, it's just that Sasuke seems to be incapable of creating his own techniques, which is a little lame. I mean his early taijutsu style was borrowed from Lee, his Chidori came from Kakashi and his snake techniques are from Orochimaru. Really his only "original" moves were the Katon jutsu he used to use which came from the Uchiha clan.

It just seems he's using the Sharingan's Copy function a little too much. It's not a bad thing necessarily, it is his fighting style after all, I just wish we'd get a little more originality out of him. After all, he's not called Copy Ninja Sasuke is he ? Compare that with Itachi who uses only his own techniques, or at least those of the Uchiha clan.

It's pretty obvious I'm not a fan of Sasuke isn't it ? ^_^'[/SIZE]

[Magus]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Well, I would think Sasuke does have one jutsu in his bag we haven't seen yet. Whatever jutsu Orochimaru stopped Sasuke from using against Naruto and company back when they met up for the first time in a long time, I think Sasuke'll unleash it in this fight.

I don't have anything to say about this chapter. [/COLOR]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]It's pretty obvious I'm not a fan of Sasuke isn't it ? ^_^'[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

That goes without saying. ^^ By no means are you the only one. My sister, for one, detests him. I can't bring myself to. If Kishimoto loves him so much, he must have something up his sleeve, something that will redeem him in the reader's eyes, either morally or kickass-edly. I want to have faith in Kishi's choice. Sasuke's bullheadedness can make that hard at times, but I'm stubborn too.

As far as his not being original goes, there are plenty of ninja out there, especially those who would still be considered apprentices, that seem to be small-scale copies of their instructors. Lee (obviously) strongly resembles Gai in fighting style; Shikamaru - his father and the Nara clan; Sakura - Tsunade; Chouji - his father; etc. They all have aspects of their teachers that come through strongly in their styles.

When I really think about it, one of the few that seems completely different from his sensei (minus one technique) would be Naruto. Jiraiya fit his training style around Naruto's unique abilities. He didn't just form a replica of himself. So, maybe, just maybe... the fault lies with the instructor. Only to a point, true, but it could heavily rely on the one teaching whether or not the student reaches out for original techniques and styles. And if Orochimaru was truly planning on transferring into Sasuke, he probably was pushing to get Sasuke's body accustomed to performing Orochimaru's own style and array of techniques. Or maybe Kishimoto is running out of ideas. Now I'm just BSing.

I still think Sasuke plans to surprise us. I hope I'm right, or this could be really anti-climactic.

[Kei]

[color=darkblue][size=1]I find myself agreeing with TC on this one in some regard. The fact that a lot of people's styles reflect their teacher so heavily is likely due to teaching method.

However, you do have to take into account that each of those students could have just as easily taken what they learned and went their own path with it. Sakura is a fairly good example of a variant on Tsunade's style: she's monstrously powerful, but she still incorporates a lot of herself into her moves. True, we haven't seen her fight a lot since the Sasori battle and she had Chiyo's help then, but you get my meaning.

With that said, Sasuke is an odd case. He's taken a lot from the teachers he's had in the past and their moves are all pretty staple in his fights. However, we have seen a few new techiniques out of him in a few ways (the Chidori variant comes to mind). One also has to think that he has essentially created his own style out of all the ones he's learned. I'm sure not many people can combine taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu as well as he can. Most people specialize in one (as we've seen in various characters already), so one can argue that he isn't being all that stale in that regard.

You also have to consider the fact that Orochimaru was probably always on him drilling his techniques into his body so the muscle memory would be there when he took over. Unfortunately for Snakes, Sasuke had his own plans. Such is life. That said, he likely didn't have that much time to himself to develop new jutsu over those two years, between drills and setting up Orochimaru's incapcitation.

I suppose this was a whole "lay off Sasuke" thing, but I really didn't intend it to be. I'm pretty on the fence about him now, heh.[/color][/size]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Kei'][color=darkblue][size=1]I suppose this was a whole "lay off Sasuke" thing, but I really didn't intend it to be. I'm pretty on the fence about him now, heh.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Sure you are Kei *cough*fangirl*cough*

Heh, just kidding. ^_~

You and TC both make fair points about how all of the character's styles are reflectant of their sensei's, with the exception of Naruto and Jiraiya, aside from the Rasengan and the toad summoning jutsu, which hopefully he has learned some more of, as that boys repertoire is getting painfully repetitive. No, I'm not trying to start another argument, just stating an opinion.

For Sasuke though, I simply expected him to really go out and develop a very personal style, yes taking elements from his teachers. I mean Sasuke was constantly portrayed as a genius who picked things up so easily, so I just expected a little more experimentation out of him. I suppose it just comes down to, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

You would think that after his claim that he'd acquire power "his way" and not Itachi's way that he'd show us this way of his more forcefully than he's seemed to. His ingenuity in battle is definitely top tier - his battle with Deidara was intriguing in that aspect. Plus his blend of the three jutsu types is impressive. I still find the way Shikamaru now handles himself to be more even more impressive, but perhaps that's just me. We just need Sasuke to pull his head out of his rump and let all this stupidity go.

[Kei]

[color=darkblue][size=1]DAMN YOU, KISHI.

I was really not expecting that whole thing to have taken place in a Tsukuyomi. Seriously. I was also not expecting Sasuke to be able to break out of it. Interesting things are happening.

We also get to see Amaterasu from Itachi for the first time next week. All I can say is finally.

That is all until I can get over the slight mindtrip.[/color][/size]

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]God damn the Uchiha and their genjutsu, it's getting really frustrating having to doubt everything you see.

I'm looking forward to actually seeing Amaterasu first hand, last time we only saw the after-effects and from the way Jiraiya described it, that black fire must be pretty damn powerful.

Seriously, I hope this isn't just another genjutsu, though Zetsu's reaction would seem to indicate it isn't.[/SIZE]

[Shinmaru]

I can only agree with the two fine people who posted above me. It'd be nice to have a Sharingan battle that doesn't have 5,000 retcons taking place within the span of five seconds. Interesting that Sasuke was able to withstand the Tsukuyomi (not entirely surprising, of course), though it appears Itachi still held back a bit.

And, yeah, I'm looking forward to Amaterasu. Every vision I have of it involves flames shooting out of Itachi's eyes, so I'm glad I'm not the one who has to think of what it should look like and then draw it lol.

[TwistedChick]

I can't say I'm surprised one bit that all this was genjutsu. I said earlier that this kind of battle was the biggest cop out a mangaka could do. I have to say though, I like Sasuke's line about a stone and shuriken. Eloquently put, and point taken. Now, if this [I]really is[/I] the start of the physical battle, I'll be a happy person. Itachi's technique terrified even Jiraiya. Let's see how Sasuke will cope.

[Magus]

[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]"Itachi's pissed". Now that's comedy :p

As lame as I think Itachi's reasons for keeping Sasuke alive, can't help but to admit that the guy is still probably the best character. (IMO) Even though it was genjutsu, I wonder how many moves ahead is/was Itachi thinking.

But seeing Tsukuyomi actually broken (very hard for me to see it, though, because everything was too dark.) and seeing Itachi actually in pain, this fight has now gotten me very intrigued.

First time we've seen Itachi actually use a hand sign.

I wonder how close does Itachi stack up against Pein.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Kei]

[color=darkblue][size=1]I'm pretty sure that if Pein didn't use the whole six-way view technique, Itachi would likely be able to drop him. However, since Pein has those eyes of his and that technique, it's pretty damn hard to get him pinned down in any sort of genjutsu well, as we saw in his fight against Jiraiya (Powers That Be rest his soul).

Should he be able to aquire the power he wants and gain even more from Madara (or his embodiment, however you want to view it), it's likely that there would be a throwdown between the two where Pein gets the short end of the stick.

Anyway, what I'm wondering about now is just how much Sasuke was able to train mentally now. Genjutsu is all about the mind and we've already seen that Itachi is one of the foremost genjutsu masters in the Naruto world. However, Sasuke was able to beat his second-strongest technique. Should things go as predicted (not saying they will, since it's Kishi), he'll be able to beat his strongest.

When all's said and done, one could be able to say that Sasuke is one of the strongest genjustu users in the world. But you also have to take into account that Itachi is going blind and that might have weakened what he's able to do. My question is this: Where does Sasuke actually stand and how did he get that way?

Other than some things at the very beginning of the time skip, we've never seen Sasuke's training over those two and a half years. Anything could have happened, but I'm starting to wonder what exactly went down during that time. Anyone else feel this way?[/color][/size]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Kei'][color=darkblue][size=1]Other than some things at the very beginning of the time skip, we've never seen Sasuke's training over those two and a half years. Anything could have happened, but I'm starting to wonder what exactly went down during that time. Anyone else feel this way?[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, I'm pretty curious about what Sasuke acquired from his time with Orochimaru, as he seems to have out-paced his former teammates by leaps and bounds in terms of power and ability.

I wonder though, how much as Itachi's failing sight is affecting this fight. Depending on how bad it actually is, Sasuke's apparent strength level mightn't be as great as it appears, after all, he beat Orochimaru only because his body was failing him. [/SIZE]

[Andy]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]
I wonder though, how much as Itachi's failing sight is affecting this fight. Depending on how bad it actually is, Sasuke's apparent strength level mightn't be as great as it appears, after all, he beat Orochimaru only because his body was failing him. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="2"]But remember when Jiraiya fought Orochimaru after the Third Hokage had sealed his arm's? Orochimaru put up a pretty damn good fight, especially considering he couldn't even use his arm's. So we can't exactly call Sasuke's victory over him a blowout.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Andy'][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="2"]But remember when Jiraiya fought Orochimaru after the Third Hokage had sealed his arm's? Orochimaru put up a pretty damn good fight, especially considering he couldn't even use his arm's. So we can't exactly call Sasuke's victory over him a blowout.[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Hadn't Tsunade poisoned Jiraiya at the time as well though, to the point where he couldn't properly control his chakra ? I know what you're saying Andy, but in all seriousness, if Jiraiya had transformed into his Hermit Mode during that fight, I think Snakey was pretty much dead. Meh, as Mike [Shinmaru] said, there seems to be a lot of retcons taking place in Naruto to explain/justify everything.

I don't really care one way or the other how Sasuke's strength measures up as compared to his team-mates, I'd just like to know exactly where he fights in the grand scale of things power-wise.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Kei'][color=darkblue][size=1]...Should [Itachi] be able to aquire the power he wants and gain even more from Madara (or his embodiment, however you want to view it), it's likely that there would be a throwdown between the two where Pein gets the short end of the stick...[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

I'd have to disagree about how powerful everyone seems to think Itachi is. Before his vision started failing, when he and Kisame first came into Konoha to scout out Naruto, Itachi took the bait and engaged Kurenai and Asuma in combat. He [I]continued[/I] fighting after Kakashi arrived, and apparently found him threatening enough to use Tsukiyomi on him. Itachi knows better than anyone how draining that technique is, but he pulled it out against him even when it had basically come down to a two-on-one fight. With the threat of the tsukiyomi, it would have been hard for Asuma and Kurenai to do anything further, especially with Kakashi warning them against it. So, at that point, Itachi didn't really [I]need[/I] to use tsukiyomi, that is, unless he thought it necessary to quickly defeat his opponent. Up until then in the fight, Kakashi had proven himself stronger than Asuma and Kurenai combined, and although Itachi had had the upper hand, he'd been able to pretty much match him in speed and hand-sign prowess. I'm not saying Kakashi could have won. Far from it. I'm just saying he was viewed as a major threat, so much so that Itachi warned Kisame about fighting him, pretty much saying Kisame would take major injury even if he managed to kill Kakashi first.

What's the point of this rambling? Well, other than proving my avatar isn't for looks (yes, obviously, I adore Kakashi), it goes without saying that anyone who would even have a chance of defeating Jiraiya would have to be at a level where Kakashi would barely be viewed as a threat, not someone you'd pull out your most powerful genjutsu against. Afterall, what was the feeling Kakashi got when staring down Orochimaru over Sasuke's newly curse-mark-sealed and incapacitated body? Did he not feel his imminent death if they fought? And who would argue that Jiraiya isn't dang near right at Orochimaru's level by now? That's the feeling I believe we're supposed to have. So, per the transitive property, if Jiraiya is equal to Orochimaru, and Orochimaru is [B]far superior[/B] to Kakashi, then Jiraiya is [B]far superior[/B] to Kakashi. And if Pein was soundly able to kill Jiraiya, then he is worlds beyond Kakashi, [I]the person Itachi felt threatened by[/I].

True, it has been two and half years, but as was noted by several others, the current Itachi, though perhaps experiencing some growth in skill over the last few years, has also had to contend with failing eyesight, such that he is willing to rush his encounter with Sasuke and obtain his eyes now, as opposed to waiting until he's developed the mangekyou, which was his purpose in letting him be at the start. So, I guess my point is that even if Itachi obtained Sasuke's eyes (which I doubt Kishimoto would have happen) they would not be the same as Madara's, so Itachi getting eyes of that particular kind with which to face off against Pein isn't likely, or in my opinion, possible.




Simple version:

Itachi: not miles above Kakashi, though far above.
Jiraiya: miles above Kakashi, and therefore, for all intents and purposes, above Itachi.
Pein: able to kill Jiraiya, hence stronger than him.
Everything put together: Pein stronger than Itachi, new eyes or no.



I might bring up other points later. For now, I'm late to my doctor's appointment.

[Magus]

[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]I don't know if I'd say Jiraya is above Itachi, that is if we're going by what TwistedChick said about Orochimaru being equalled to Jiraya. Before the time skip, I recall Orochimaru stating that Itachi was better than him. (Not sure, I refuse to go back that far and try to try to confirm that.. plus I can't put up with them when they're that young XD)

After the time skip though, Sasuke said neither he nor Orochimaru was strong enough to fight Itachi. (Same chapter where Orochimaru stopped Sasuke from doing some Jutsu, I think.)

As far as Kakashi, hm.. I'd give Kakashi the benefit of the doubt, but if I'm not mistaken, Itachi didn't want a war, and this is just speculation here, but I think Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi because they were running short on time. (Before reinforcements arrived.)

Heh, perhaps it does come down to abilities/skills instead of power.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]...I recall Orochimaru stating that Itachi was better than him... perhaps it does come down to abilities/skills instead of power.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Orochimaru most certainly meant that Itachi would be superior in a fight that required him to lock eyes with his opponent. Itachi, of course, would win, his having mangekyou sharingan and all. But as for Itachi being stronger overall... If that were the case, why would Sasuke ever go to train under someone weaker than the person he intended to kill? His whole purpose in joining Orochimaru was to surpass his brother, something he concluded would naturally come from training under him. Or are you saying Itachi is the strongest ninja in the world and thus absolutely [I]anyone[/I] that Sasuke trained under would be inferior to him? I hope you don't think that.

As for Jiraiya being stronger than Itachi - don't forget that when Itachi and Kisame saw Naruto traveling with Jiraiya, Itachi *prudently* determined that taking him on would be foolish. If Itachi [I]by himself[/I] was superior to Jiraiya, surely with Kisame as backup he would have taken confronted him and secured the kyuubi for Akatsuki, especially since he could have approached Jiraiya when he and Naruto were off training and isolated from the village, thus avoiding sparking a war. Since throughout the entire 2 1/2 year training period Itachi never took this opportunity, he must have still considered Jiraiya superior to himself.

[Magus]

[quote name='TwistedChick']Orochimaru most certainly meant that Itachi would be superior in a fight that required him to lock eyes with his opponent. Itachi, of course, would win, his having mangekyou sharingan and all. But as for Itachi being stronger overall... If that were the case, why would Sasuke ever go to train under someone weaker than the person he intended to kill? His whole purpose in joining Orochimaru was to surpass his brother, something he concluded would naturally come from training under him. Or are you saying Itachi is the strongest ninja in the world and thus absolutely [I]anyone[/I] that Sasuke trained under would be inferior to him? I hope you don't think that.[/quote]
[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]Not at all. Just going by what they, themselves, stated. (Which at this point seems like it can probably be ruled out since it's all contradicting) Honestly, I don't have much of an opinon about "whose stronger than whom". As far as Sasuke going to Orochimaru... "shrugs" I don't know. In my eyes, he'd go to anyone that can give him power.

Edit: Don't recall what was said here either, but I recall Orochimaru quitting Akatsuki because of Itachi. (Actually, don't bank me on that..) [/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='TwistedChick][b]As for Jiraiya being stronger than Itachi - don't forget that when Itachi and Kisame saw Naruto traveling with Jiraiya, Itachi *prudently* determined that taking him on would be foolish.[/b] If Itachi [I]by himself[/I'] was superior to Jiraiya, surely with Kisame as backup he would have taken confronted him and secured the kyuubi for Akatsuki, especially since he could have approached Jiraiya when he and Naruto were off training and isolated from the village, thus avoiding sparking a war. Since throughout the entire 2 1/2 year training period Itachi never took this opportunity, he must have still considered Jiraiya superior to himself.[/quote]
[COLOR="red"][SIZE="1"]And that's where I normally get tossed around in circles at. Orochimaru states something along the lines of Itachi being stronger than him, and then we see/hear Itachi saying something about Jiraya, and yet to hear it stated again that Orochimaru is still not stronger than Itachi. Yet the 3 sanin (sp?) are suppose to be on equal grounds. All of it is a tad bit confusing.

And of course we all know that Itachi is the strongest ninja in the world. :p

You do have some strong points though, TwistedChick, and I might have to start reading from when Orochimaru first came into the picture. >_>[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]And that's where I normally get tossed around in circles.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

There probably are inconsistencies, but that's pretty much inevitable in a story this size. Like you said, it doesn't so much matter who is stronger than who - unless they end up fighting each other.

[Andy]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Hadn't Tsunade poisoned Jiraiya at the time as well though, to the point where he couldn't properly control his chakra ?
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]
[SIZE="2"]Ha, good point. But yeah, I was mainly just saying that Orochimaru probably wasn't some push-over against Sasuke, even if he was sick/dying. Lol, sorry for any misunderstanding. Also, as for the whole "who's stronger than who" and all that, I wouldn't really delve into it that much. I mean, we all know Kishimoto has filled Naruto with plenty of loop-holes, and I'm sure that there's many more on that subject. I mean, he obviously didn't go into [I]that[/I] much detail as far as who is more superior than the other.... Gah, Kishimoto confuses people to much. He really need's to start putting more detail into this crap...>.>;[/SIZE]
[/FONT]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="red"][SIZE="1"]And that's where I normally get tossed around in circles at. Orochimaru states something along the lines of Itachi being stronger than him, and then we see/hear Itachi saying something about Jiraya, and yet to hear it stated again that Orochimaru is still not stronger than Itachi. Yet the 3 sanin (sp?) are suppose to be on equal grounds. All of it is a tad bit confusing.

And of course we all know that Itachi is the strongest ninja in the world. :p[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I think really in the Orochimaru/Jiraiya/Itachi thing, it's like Rock/Paper/Scissors. Orochimaru is primarily a jutsu user, which against the Sharingan isn't a great strategy, as Itachi himself said, against his eyes, all of Orochimaru's techniques were useless. Jiraiya on the other hand is a much more physical fighter, and the Rasengan can't be copied or deflected by the Sharingan, mixed with his Hermit Mode I think it explains why Itachi was quick to retreat.

Itachi is a strategic fighter, he picks fights he knows he can win, Orochimaru is the same way, he just underestimated Itachi's Sharingan, and after the attack, he knew he couldn't stick around Akatsuki, so really, he only beat him in the one confrontation. It makes me wonder whether or not he knew about Madara.

So yeah, with the Sannin, it's Rock/Paper/Scissors.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Andy'][FONT="Book Antiqua"]
[SIZE="2"]Kishimoto confuses people to much. He really need's to start putting more detail into this crap...>.>;[/SIZE]
[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Agreed.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]So yeah, with the Sannin, it's Rock/Paper/Scissors.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Nice way of putting it. They're kind of the embodiment of the struggle for dominance between the three jutsu types.

Rock/Paper/Scissors.
Taijutsu/Genjutsu/Ninjutsu.
Force/Cunning/Skill.
Jiraiya/Itachi/Orochimaru.

I like it.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']Nice way of putting it. They're kind of the embodiment of the struggle for dominance between the three jutsu types. [/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, which is what really sums up the idea of the Sannin, individually they're all strong, but they can be beaten by the opposing force against them. It reminds me of a picture I saw on deviantART explaining why Sasuke shouldn't have been able to beat Deidara based on Pokémon.

Ah, [url=http://sractheninja.deviantart.com/art/Naruto-Sasuke-Fails-At-Pokemon-59684795]here it is[/url].

Poor Sasuke, it's just too easy to mock him.[/SIZE]