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Judge overturns Prop 8


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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38560562/ns/us_news-life?GT1=43001
http://www.queerty.com/unconstitutional-prop-8-overturned-in-landmark-federal-ruling-20100804/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/04/california.same.sex.ruling/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
http://gov.ca.gov/press-release/15738/

inb4 westborough baptist church has a brain aneurysm.
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[quote name='Citric' date='04 August 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1280959877' post='698840']
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38560562/ns/us_news-life?GT1=43001
http://www.queerty.com/unconstitutional-prop-8-overturned-in-landmark-federal-ruling-20100804/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/04/california.same.sex.ruling/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
http://gov.ca.gov/press-release/15738/

inb4 westborough baptist church has a brain aneurysm.
[/quote]
[color="#A0522D"][font="Arial"]Yeah, I saw this while it was still up in the air on the news this morning while was waiting to check in for jury duty.

inb4 court of appeals[/font][/color]
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[quote name='Citric' date='04 August 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1280959877' post='698840']
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38560562/ns/us_news-life?GT1=43001
http://www.queerty.com/unconstitutional-prop-8-overturned-in-landmark-federal-ruling-20100804/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/04/california.same.sex.ruling/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
http://gov.ca.gov/press-release/15738/

inb4 westborough baptist church has a brain aneurysm.
[/quote]

[color=indigo]Sigh...I'm not sure why churches care if gays can marry. Religious institutions don't have to acknowledge the marriage, just the federal and state government.

I am glad that it was overturned but, let's be honest, the appellate process for this is going to be crazy. I just hope that when one of these appeals gets to the Supreme Court it is judged based on what is legally and ethically appropriate, not on politics.[/color]
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[quote name='Shy' date='04 August 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1280965595' post='698864']
This is great news. I'm gonna get married so hard tonight. Maybe twice. It's my right!

-Shy
[/quote]

Me too! Oh yeah! Never been a better time to go to the home of the fruits and nuts. ^^
One hour weddings for the win!
Yeah...
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[quote name='Heaven's Cloud'][color="indigo"]Sigh...I'm not sure why churches care if gays can marry. Religious institutions don't have to acknowledge the marriage, just the federal and state government. [/color][/quote]
[FONT=Calibri]Few reasons:[b]
[/b][list][*][b]Misguided patriotism[/b] â?? There are a lot of church bodies who believe (maybe correctly, maybe not) that the US was established as a Christian nation, and they feel that decisions like these are a threat to their Christian heritage and doctrine and therefore a threat to the nation as a whole.[/list][list][*][b]Tradition upheaval[/b] â?? People don't like change. Plain and simple. Southern Baptists are notorious for this trait; trust me, I'm Baptist and live in the South so I sort of can't escape them. =P I've seen church bodies shredded by internal strife over disagreements, ranging from serious doctrinal interpretations to whether there's a barrier in front of the choir loft. It's nuts.[/list][list][*][b]Haters gonna hate[/b] â?? I shouldn't have to explain this one.[/list][/FONT]
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[COLOR=#35425e][quote name='Allamorph' date='05 August 2010 - 11:30 AM' timestamp='1280979032' post='698888']
[b]Haters gonna hate[/b]
[/quote]
Indeedy.

My $0.02: I really thought that a lot of religious institutions would back same-sex marriage, because a lot of classic religious texts state that all men are equal in the eyes of the God-equivalent. Apparently, not everyone is over the "homosexuals included" clause it implies. (Our priest is for same-sex marriage so...yay!)

In any case, congratulations stakeholders! Especially the kissing ladies in the picture over at CNN. [/color]
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[quote name='Allamorph' date='05 August 2010 - 05:30 AM' timestamp='1280979032' post='698888']
[font="Calibri"]Few reasons:[b]
[/b][list][*][b]Misguided patriotism[/b] â?? There are a lot of church bodies who believe (maybe correctly, maybe not) that the US was established as a Christian nation, and they feel that decisions like these are a threat to their Christian heritage and doctrine and therefore a threat to the nation as a whole.[/list][list][*][b]Tradition upheaval[/b] â?? People don't like change. Plain and simple. Southern Baptists are notorious for this trait; trust me, I'm Baptist and live in the South so I sort of can't escape them. =P I've seen church bodies shredded by internal strife over disagreements, ranging from serious doctrinal interpretations to whether there's a barrier in front of the choir loft. It's nuts.[/list][list][*][b]Haters gonna hate[/b] â?? I shouldn't have to explain this on[/list][/font][/quote]
You're missing "because they think it's wrong, so they want to prevent it." If you're convinced of something being a sin, the just thing to do would be to prevent it from happening. If you knew someone was going to murder another person and you're able to prevent it by some means, wouldn't you do so?

Still, yay that California finally caught up.
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[quote name='Lady Shy']You're missing "because they think it's wrong, so they want to prevent it." If you're convinced of something being a sin, the just thing to do would be to prevent it from happening. If you knew someone was going to murder another person and you're able to prevent it by some means, wouldn't you do so?[/quote]
[FONT=Calibri]Not necessarily.[/FONT]
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[quote name='Allamorph' date='06 August 2010 - 07:20 AM' timestamp='1281072026' post='698957']
[font="Calibri"]Not necessarily.[/font]
[/quote]

Well, same counts for plenty of Christians who think homo marriage is wrong, but they just complain to their mates and all instead of taking action.

There's just obviously enough in the Americas who wanted to stride forth as paladins and save the world from its own doom.
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[quote name='Lady Shy' date='06 August 2010 - 05:56 AM' timestamp='1281088580' post='698962']
There's just obviously enough in the Americas who wanted to stride forth as paladins and save the world from its own doom.
[/quote]

[color=indigo]Yep, but...[/color]

[url="http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-black-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-reilly-and-rashida-jones"]...that isn't what Jesus and NPH think.[/url] Edited by Heaven's Cloud
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[quote name='Lady Shy' date='05 August 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1281056104' post='698947']
You're missing "because they think it's wrong, so they want to prevent it." If you're convinced of something being a sin, the just thing to do would be to prevent it from happening. If you knew someone was going to murder another person and you're able to prevent it by some means, wouldn't you do so?

Still, yay that California finally caught up.
[/quote]

I was going to expand on Allamorph's reply by mentioning how many things the Bible claims are sinful in addition to homosexuality that Christians don't even acknowledge (and may even participate in), but that was pretty much covered in Heaven's Cloud's linked video. And as a weird flipside to this, there are things the Bible is okay with that people today consider to be morally wrong (like slavery).

Anyway, my reaction to this news was weird. When Prop 8 passed two years ago, I was so angry at the world I actually wrote a song about it. Now I don't really feel any excitement or relief or anything. I didn't even know it was going to be re-voted until the day before, and the only reason I knew it had fallen was that all my friends were celebrating it on Facebook and Tumblr. I'm glad it got overturned and I know that though it may not affect me where I am right now, it could mean great things for human rights; I just don't feel anything. Maybe it's just that I'm so busy with and stressed out by other things right now.

[size="4"]Anyone who has a tumblr, follow this one! [url="http://www.gaywrites.tumblr.com"][u]Gay Writes[/u][/url][/size] Edited by Tonks
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[color="#9932CC"][font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]I just wanted to say that not all Christians [or religious people in general] go around beating people with Bibles, claiming that "YOU'RE GONNA GO TO HELL" if you so much as blink the wrong way. Similarly, just because some might not agree with homosexuality does not mean that they want to strip you of your rights as a human and burn you alive. I'm not gonna lie and say it never happens -- it does, unfortunately -- but you'd probably be surprised at how many [i]aren't[/i] like that.

Heck, even the most "fundamentalist" types believe that the Westboro Baptist Church [which is not affiliated with any American Baptist churches] are a pack of truly evil people, spewing vitriol and hatred that they wouldn't even [i]dream[/i] of ever doing. According to some accounts of former members of the church, Fred Phelps stopped believing in God a long time ago, and uses His name just to rile people up. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, it's worked spectacularly. Truly one of the most effective real life trolls of our day, especially considering the [i]Klu Klux Klan[/i] thinks they're a bunch of wackos.

For me, it's something I've struggled with for a long time now. But you know what? Either way, it's not my place to judge. You could be gay, straight, Christian, Muslim, atheist, whatever, and I'll still call you my friend.

Anyway. Just wanted to point that out. Carry on. [/font][/color] Edited by Sangome
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[quote name='Lady Shy']Well, same counts for plenty of Christians who think homo marriage is wrong, but they just complain to their mates and all instead of taking action.[/quote]
[FONT=Calibri]No, see, the reply I gave was for each sentence in turn. Just so happened that each reply was the same.[/FONT]

[quote name='Lady Shy']You're missing "because they think it's wrong, so they want to prevent it."[/quote]
[FONT=Calibri]Not necessarily.

Now, there are more than likely a handful of Christians (not counting the Westboro contingent, either as part of the handful or as Christians) who believe that it is their job to enforce a Godly approach to everyone else's life, but the rest of those who might agree with the idea are too socially conscious to attempt such an ostracising action, or are wise enough to know that doing so won't do any good. Otherwise, it's much easier to get people to bandwagon on the "____ is a threat to the integrity of our Christian nation" mantra, which is the first point.

On a minor note, the word should probably not be 'prevent' but 'eliminate'.[/FONT]

[quote name='Lady Shy']If you're convinced of something being a sin, the just thing to do would be to prevent it from happening.[/quote]
[FONT=Calibri]Not necessarily.

If you know something to be a sin, the just thing to do is not to do it.[/FONT]

[quote name='Lady Shy']If you knew someone was going to murder another person and you're able to prevent it by some means, wouldn't you do so?[/quote]
[FONT=Calibri]Not necessarily.

After all, the death sentence is essentially a State-justified murder.[/FONT]
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these are the subjects that get real fights going. lucky most of us are good enough friends here where i doubt we would stop talking to one another over an opinion (even if you know it is wrong)
anyways i want to point out that most christians don't read the whole bible, about nine out of every ten never finish it in according to every poll i found. this tells me that Christians almost always pick and choose what they want to hear and what they do not.
i really don't think that's a bad thing because a good chunk of it makes little sense and also contains morals not portrayed by a normal good christian as explained earlier.

i believe once Homosexual marriage becomes a mainstream idea, the Bible will somehow drop the passage or maybe the entire book that contains anything that ars homosexual marriage, and it will join all the other forgotten books that are now so outdated they are left out of the bible.

however, until the big wigs decide to do that, and it may take a long while.. i wont blame Christians for being against gay marriage. If they think they are going too hell if they arnt a good person, and in order to be a good person they have to try and save people, i wont stop them from trying. i am like many other Atheists pummeled with fliers, bibles, and prayers, but having gone to a catholic school i know why they feel the need to do it. plus if the alternative in your eyes is burning forever... i would try to convince a few people as well, especially if i thought it was for their own good.
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[quote name='Allamorph' date='07 August 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1281198389' post='699031']
[FONT=Calibri]Not necessarily.

If you know something to be a sin, the just thing to do is not to do it.[/FONT]
[/quote]

[color=indigo]You are not wrong but neither is Lady Shy. The big problem with Christianity, one that is not so prevalent in Islam, Judaism, or Buddhism, is the duality of the religion. There is a huge contrast between what is stated in the Old Testament and the New Testament (especially if you read from an older copy, as opposed to the newer drastically altered copies that most Pentecostal and Baptist churches use). In the Old Testament God was a vengeful bastard. Scripture like "For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer" makes it clear that if you are sinner than you better run for the hills because God is itching for a smoteing.

In the New Testament Jesus has really mellowed out his dad (medical marijuana perhaps?) and he preaches less about avoiding sin and more about repentance for the sins that you have, and undoubtedly will, commit (check out Luke 7:36-47 for an example of how Jesus feels about all us sinners).

So what does this have to do with both yours and Lady Shy's posts? Well, your out look of what Christians should act like is very logical and is rooted in both Old and New Testament thought. No rational pasture, minister, priest, or preacher would disagree with you. However, Lady Shy is also right, as her thinking is firmly rooted in New Testament philosophy. After all, how are sinners supposed to repent if they don't recognize a sin as a sin because of the law allows it?

Regardless of either views, it is horribly short sighted of Christians to be so damn homophobic (there really is no other word for it). Homosexuality is not a big sin. Actually it is no worse than any other form of fornication between two unmarried people that is not for the sole purpose of procreation. Truly, adultery is the only type of fornication that is singled out as "worse than" other types of fornication in the bible, and how many Christians have cheated on their loved ones? Exactly. According to the big G upstairs, those guys are far more vile than gays.

Personally (and if Sara reads this she will rebuke me for my redundant use of "personally"), I don't believe in the Bible. However, if someone chooses to believe in it, it is of utmost importance for them to read and understand the damn thing. This is what gets me so angry at religiously minded people, they follow something that they not only fail to understand, but something that they fail at attempting to understand. [/color]
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I'm really happy to hear this. :) I'm straight and a very devoted Christian and I'm 110% for same sex marrage (and props to the judge who overturned prop 8 :D ) I don't understand why people who are against same sex marrage usually end up saying it's the same as marrying an animal, it's not. Two people are two people no matter what gender and I don't think anyone has the right to stop love. :)
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[color="#35425e"][quote name='Heaven's Cloud' date='08 August 2010 - 06:09 AM' timestamp='1281218980' post='699051']
[color=indigo] they follow something that they not only fail to understand, but something that they fail at attempting to understand. [/color]
[/quote]
Religious institutions, law enforcement, the stock market, mass media, labor unions and the academe. Also, with reading maps. Happens everywhere. So it must be a human thing.

Give this time, and the whole thing will boil over. Same thing happened with women's suffrage, Uniformitarianism, and the heliocentric solar system. Everyone just ended up accepting it. Just how long will this be fully accepted is the question.

The sooner the better.[/color]
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[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][color="#9932cc"] I recall being aggressively campaigned to regarding prop 8 by the homosexual lobby in a manner that was eventually ruled to be illegal. As they were two feet from the polling booths. This is what I remember when I think about Prop 8. Strangely, I wasn't marketed to at all from the opposing faction. Also, because I don't support state recognized marriage regardless of gender, I didn't vote on the matter at all. You may now begin hating me for my lack of interest in the foibles and generalized howling about the rights of gays, straights, and so on and so forth.

One can only surmise that now that the right to "marry" is extended to people of all socially acceptable persuasions everyone will be tolerant and have absolutely no problem with it. In California.

I am not for one convinced that this ruling will stand on it's own for very long, because it has yet to go to the federal level, and here's where the intellectuals try to tell me that the federal government can't interfere with the rulings of the state and blah blah blah blah blah but we all know it's going to happen anyway so why bother celebrating now. All of this is premature until the bolt from Mount Olympus [that'd be the Supreme Court for you unimaginative types] comes crashing down into our bedrooms.

Then you can all either throw yet another party or slit your wrists, whichever works best for you. [/color][/size][/font] Edited by Raiha
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