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[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]That's a rather specific metaphor there Ace.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Well, it had to be the capture my intense, unbridled joy that someone I hated might actually go away for good, only to find out that everyone is going to be stupid and I'm gonna get punched in the gut with more OH SASUKE POOR BABY HE IS TOTALLY JUSTIFIED IN BEING AN OMNICIDAL DICKWEED FOR NO DAMN REASON.

Also, what with Danzo gone, there's no chance of Sakura taking Karin back to anyone who thinks logically enough to go "hey, she might be that Uchiha moron's spy. Let's stab her with sharp things."[/FONT]
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Hey All, I have to say, I thought that the end of Naruto volume 6, when Sakura finally fought, was the most awesome fight in Naruto so far. I've been waiting for Sakura to fight since th

[COLOR=DarkSlateGray][SIZE=1][FONT=Comic Sans MS]I leave this thread alone for this long and this is what I come back to?...For shame on myself... Well, I think you both may be right on one end

[QUOTE=Ikillion][COLOR=DarkSlateGray][SIZE=1][FONT=Comic Sans MS] The manga let me down slightly, [spoiler]I just wanted to see a whole lot more out of the fight between Orochimaru and Naruto, m

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[size=1][color=darkred]Mixed feelings about this chapter. Sakura almost wrecked it for me with her stupidity. She is a teenage girl who hasn't killed a soul so freezing up like that is/was expected, but still, why you go back there for if you were just going to hesitate? Man, stuff like that really pisses me off.

There's definately some nice build-up in this chapter, and I am a bit relieved that logic is back in this series. Sasuke being able to fight in his current condition just don't sit well with me at all. Seeing side effects take place really does make me a happy camper again, but like I said, the chapter itself is a mixbag for me.

So much for Kakashi vs Sasuke >_>. I really do hate how Kakashi has been dumbed down. Kakashi's last greatest fight was when he was fighting again Hidan and Kakuzo, and since then it just seems like he's been dumbed down. I can understand that the arrow being too fast and all, but still... I just don't care for how Kishi has Kakashi fighting as of late.[/size][/color]
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[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="1"][COLOR="Gray"]You beat me to the punch Magus lol. But Im in the same boat as you...I definitely have mixed feelings about this chapter. It would have been really nice to see Kakashi get a little bit more fight time, but Im just as satisfied to see that logic was put into play with Sasuke, all Kakashi has to do now is finish the job, cause God knows, no one else there is gonna do it.

I'm definitely not surprised that Naruto showed up and ruined the day as always tho, while both Karin and Sakura still lives, and continues to be the useless disappointments that they are. I mean, she couldn't even follow through with an attack on a blind person, let alone parry his simple attack.....I wonder if Kishi even regrets creating their characters...probably not. Nonetheless, Im slightly interested to see what Kishi does next chapter...just slightly lol, but I learned a long time ago not to get my hopes up for this series anymore. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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[SIZE=1]Sad to say I called it, I knew Kakashi would be hopeless in a fight against Sasuke at this point, even though the latter is half blind and nearly dead from chakra loss. Naruto's arrival likewise was not surprising, nor the fact Sakura choked yet again at the moment of opportunity.

I'm vaguely curious about how Naruto will address the current situation, I suspect we'll get another heart-felt speech about how Sasuke doesn't need to let himself be controlled by his hate, Sasuke will rage some more than people don't get his brother was awesome (despite the fact that was the idea genius, it was either that or every Uchiha but him was considered a horrible traitor who got what they deserved) and in the end Naruto asks one more time for Sasuke to come home.

I doubt there'll be a fight, more than likely Madara will reappear and whisk Sauce away again before anyone can interrupt him. Likely as well Sasuke is finally ready to take his brother's eyes to achieve EMS.

Of course I could be wrong and Naruto beats six shades out of Sauce for his troubles in the name of friendship (stopping you from going too far) and rises to act as the Hokage he wants to be. Like I said, next week will be curious.[/SIZE]
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[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]I doubt there'll be a fight, more than likely Madara will reappear and whisk Sauce away again before anyone can interrupt him. Likely as well Sasuke is finally ready to take his brother's eyes to achieve EMS.

Of course I could be wrong and Naruto beats six shades out of Sauce for his troubles in the name of friendship (stopping you from going too far) and rises to act as the Hokage he wants to be. Like I said, next week will be curious.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="1"][COLOR="Gray"]LMAO @ Sauce....

But I dunno...maybe its wishful thinking on my part, but I think that Madara is actually gonna let Sasuke get captured...just for the sake of taking him to Konoha, where Madara will probably transplant his eyes, and unleash him upon the oldies of Konoha in an attempt to wipe out the village. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see next chapter.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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[size=1][color=darkred]Naruto.... Just die already. Not only do you give that tired speech again (expected, but still don't make me feel any better), but you also block Kakashi from doing what he gotta do (or at the very least, attempting to do what he gotta do). Yes, Naruto you need to die here and now. I don't give a "dAMN" (been watching Gabriel Iglesias) how haxxed Sasuke gotta be/get. But apparently that's not good for main character... Pfft!!! Stupid heroism.[/size][/color]
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[quote name='Magus'][SIZE=1][COLOR=darkred]Naruto.... Just die already. Not only do you give that tired speech again (expected, but still don't make me feel any better), but you also block Kakashi from doing what he gotta do (or at the very least, attempting to do what he gotta do). Yes, Naruto you need to die here and now. I don't give a "dAMN" (been watching Gabriel Iglesias) how haxxed Sasuke gotta be/get. But apparently that's not good for main character... Pfft!!! Stupid heroism.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote]

I can't help but agree with you more. Although I'm not okay with Naruto dying. Sasuke on the other hand, can.
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[SIZE=1]While I was ultimately disappointed with the chapter over the fact Naruto gave the same damn speech he gave three/four years previously at The Valley of the End I have to admit I was expecting it. Naruto was never going to make the hard choice of killing Sasuke, despite the threat he represents to every single life in Konoha.

In a sense I'm annoyed at Naruto for the same reasons I've come to dislike Orihime for in Bleach. Both are ultimately selfless, heroic characters who at the same time are dangerous because they lack the ability see the far reaching consequences of their actions. They do good things to bad people and then rely on utter luck to avoid having it come back and bite them in the ***.

Even if Naruto manages to beat Sasuke and drag him back to Konoha he's not going to achieve anything by it except put all of Konoha in danger. Naruto is selfish and selfless at the same time in that he's making a decision which ultimately is best for Sasuke on many levels, but driven by a personal need for Naruto. Kakashi favoured Sasuke above both Naruto and Sakura during their time together in Team 7, he was also the one to teach them their first lesson about working together as a team. Now however even he knows killing Sasuke (whom he called his beloved student) is in the best interests of protecting Konoha.

I said it before that Naruto is actually dangerously blinded by his own personal dogma in the same way Nagato was (and Madara may be), only that Naruto's dogma has a positive spin on it. Naruto feels he knows best in this case and is willing to push that to the point where he endangers the rest of his own team and the entire village by demanding Sasuke be taken alive. I think Sasuke is so poisoned by his own hatred at the moment he's actually incapable of being convinced there is anyone who cares for him outside of the Uchiha, and even then "the Uchiha" are just an idealised concept to him.

I don't think Naruto should die, I think that Sasuke knows he's getting backed into a corner here and he either needs Madara to bail him out or he has to kill someone on Team 7 to create an opening for himself to escape. I think in the next two or three chapters, depending on how long the fight lasts we may see someone's (I'm guessing Kakashi's) death.
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[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]In a sense I'm annoyed at Naruto for the same reasons I've come to dislike Orihime for in Bleach. Both are ultimately selfless, heroic characters who at the same time are dangerous because they lack the ability see the far reaching consequences of their actions. They do good things to bad people and then rely on utter luck to avoid having it come back and bite them in the ***.

Even if Naruto manages to beat Sasuke and drag him back to Konoha he's not going to achieve anything by it except put all of Konoha in danger. Naruto is selfish and selfless at the same time in that he's making a decision which ultimately is best for Sasuke on many levels, but driven by a personal need for Naruto. Kakashi favoured Sasuke above both Naruto and Sakura during their time together in Team 7, he was also the one to teach them their first lesson about working together as a team. Now however even he knows killing Sasuke (whom he called his beloved student) is in the best interests of protecting Konoha.
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[size=1][color=darkred]Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. The thought of bringing Sasuke back to the village just don't even sit well with me. Everyone that was with Naruto during the retrieve Sasuke arc considered Sasuke a comrade (assuming they did after Shikamaru's speech), and Sasuke pretty much stepped on that and kicked it to the side. Betrayal is a hard thing to get over, and trust is an even harder thing to gain once one betrays another. To have everyone just forgive and forget after what Sasuke's done would be really crappy (and I would never read or watch another product of Kishi). And having Naruto forcing this on everyone to accept is just pissing me off to no end.

And even if Naruto does succeed in getting through to Sasuke, like I said, I just don't see nor will I accept it if he's welcomed back to the leaf. A happy ending like that is just piss poor. (I'm hearing that Kishi said that this will have a happy ending) A more suitable ending, at least to me would be for Sasuke to be a rogue ninja that does good or something along those lines. (Kind of like how Kenshin goes around atoning for what he's done and whatnot)

I don't care what anyone else say. I want Naruto dead. NOW!!! [/randomness][/size][/color]
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[SIZE=1]I'm not even concerned with people trusting Sasuke once he's brought back to Konoha Magus, I'm concerned by the fact once his strength returns and he's able to escape (he is a Kage class ninja after all) he'll decimate Konoha for all he's worth. He has blatantly stated he intends to kill everyone from his home village and Naruto still doesn't see the danger in dragging him back there as a prisoner as opposed to him returning as an attacker at a time of Sasuke's own choosing.

Naruto at least may have the ability to fight Sasuke evenly one on one, although to be fair Sasuke is without his Sharingan for this fight which he's come to rely on very heavy thus far. Of all the ninjas in Konoha, Naruto is probably the only one who could fight Sasuke and not be killed pretty much instantly so unless he spends his every waking hour handcuffed to Sasuke I don't see anything but the danger of his decision.
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[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]Naruto at least may have the ability to fight Sasuke evenly one on one, although to be fair Sasuke is without his Sharingan for this fight which he's come to rely on very heavy thus far. Of all the ninjas in Konoha, Naruto is probably the only one who could fight Sasuke and not be killed pretty much instantly so [B]unless he spends his every waking hour handcuffed to Sasuke[/B] I don't see anything but the danger of his decision.
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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Oh he only wishes. :cool:[/FONT]
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[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]I'm not even concerned with people trusting Sasuke once he's brought back to Konoha Magus, I'm concerned by the fact once his strength returns and he's able to escape (he is a Kage class ninja after all) he'll decimate Konoha for all he's worth. He has blatantly stated he intends to kill everyone from his home village and Naruto still doesn't see the danger in dragging him back there as a prisoner as opposed to him returning as an attacker at a time of Sasuke's own choosing.
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[size=1][color=darkred]Oh yeah, I gathered that much. I'm just speaking from a more realistic POV. I have to keep reminding myself that it's pointless to think realistically in this series. (Or any other shonen series for that matter with the exception of Death Note)[/color][/size]
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I acually really liked this week's issue [strike]minus Kakashi's plot-induced punch that could've been easily been something fatal[/strike].

I think a lot of people dont seem to just have a problem with the execution of the show, but the basic [i]premise[/i] of it too. The fact that almost all the manga viewership has written off Sasuke at this point imo is a good thing. We're [i]supposed[/i] to feel like that by now. The same way everyone else is in the story, bar Naruto.

The story would be useless/lame if Naruto ultimately goes back on his naive/immature nindo and/or doesnt save Sasuke. But the bonds theme would've lost a lot of its potency if Naruto goes on to eventually save a 'safe Sasuke'. Sasuke had to cross the line or otherwise Naruto's stubborn stance wouldnt be anything out of the norm.

The conversation they have is meant to be reminiscent of Valley of the End. I mean, did nobody pick up on the reference to what was said on [URL="http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000103052/11.jpg"][u][b]this page?[/b][/u][/URL] But obviously there are some subtle differences this time round. More is at stake and the ninja world is against Naruto rather than with, including Kakashi. The Raikage and even Gaara made it clear that the decision of saving Sasuke is very much so not a Kage-worthy one.

As much as you might want to disagree, Naruto [i]is[/i] more mature. He's experienced loss firsthand now, both of somebody dear and also on a bigger scale [strike]minus the mass-reviving 10 minutes later[/strike]. He's no longer saying these things out of blind optimism; it's an informed and difficult decision. One that's tested his resolve to the point of him collapsing [strike]like a lil b*tch[/strike].

This is just the first contact with Sasuke, really. Sasuke's exhausted and near-blind while Naruto is fresh as a daisy. He's not meant to beat sense into him yet. He's just planting the seed for later and letting Plot no Jutsu help Sasuke run away til then. Notice how Sasuke actually listens to Naruto talk even though he doesnt change his stance. I have a feeling Sasuke's turning will be better handled from hereon in. His mention in-passing of a 'rotten ninja world' basically sets him and Naruto up to have a common enemy and goal: the destruction of the ninja system as we know it.

At this point, it doesnt seem like Sasuke will be publicly forgiven for his perceived crimes but I do think he'll find redemption somehow by the end. Aside from the samurai fodder, he's only killed members of Akatsuki and Danzo, who is a remnant of the old ways. If anything he's caused more good than bad, like unifying the 5 countries against Madara lol, in a very seedy Danzo-esque rootlike way which complements Naruto's leaf-type approach (poor wording, but see Danzo's death monologue thing for the metaphor I'm reaching at).

Sakura and Karin are both alive and well but I think Sauce still has some further descent into darkness to go before he starts to find his way back. I'm banking on him eventually killing Kakashi, once he gets back to Konoha and officially becomes the 6th Hokage. That'd finally give Sasuke a 100% evil act to put under his belt. I dont see Kakashi dying just yet though.

Sorry for the semi-drawn out post, just seems like you guys never have much positive to say about this manga but love to be Captain Obvious when it comes to anything remotely negative lol. It's such a shame too because I feel there's so much to potentially discuss :/

--
PS. I understand a lot of you guys are One Piece fans. I've watched 16 episodes of the anime and it's still dragging its feet but I hate skipping things. Should I just switch to the manga or soldier on with the anime?

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[size=1][color=darkred]It's cool. And I'm fairly certain we've been down this road once before, and while I can't speak for anyone else. For me when it comes to this series the negatives outweighs its positives. The only time I'm actually impressed with this series is during the fights. I enjoyed Sasuke's fight with Danzo as well as Raikage and Killer Bee.

It's everything else that tends to wear itself thin with me, and it's not because I don't get it, I just have no interest in it. The plot points just don't interest me anymore. (I think I lost interest in story after Itachi kicked the bucket) Why am I still reading it then? I will admit that Kishi is doing something right to keep me coming back everytime I drop it, but at the same time Kishi has run out of likeable characters for me. Kakashi's the only one I'm backing now (especially since I don't think we'll see Raikage, Bee and Mizukage for a while), so it's a good chance I'll be dropping this one for good soon. (Depending on how things play out)

I don't think anybody is denying that Naruto has matured. In fact I believe everyone wanted that. It's just now this obsessiveness over Sasuke is what's killing him, but then again I've never liked Naruto since the very 1st chapter/episode. I have a natural hate for him, and pretty much any and everything he does won't fly with me.

I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing the positives, but like I said before, there hasn't been anything positive for me outside of the fighting. [strike]Besides, I just like to dog this series. And as long as Naruto continues to go on about saving Sasuke, the more I'm gonna dog it. :devil:[/strike]

I had more to say, but it's late and I'm having brain farts. Things will start to look and sound like gibberish (if they aren't looking/sounding like it already) so I'll stop there.

As for your One Piece question... (One Piece is actually under the radar here) Ace would probably tell you to watch and read it. I'd say just read it since it's really ugly. It is and can get very draggy so read/watch at your own risk.[/size][/color]
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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]My problem stems at least halfway from the way the series is written. even looking at the big picture, I understand that I'm supposed to dislike Sasuke because of his terrible actions and general lack of repentance, but the thing is I'm not sure Masashi Kishimoto himself has quite grasped that yet. Take this chapter, Sasuke's ranting about all these terrible things he's done and plans to do, and everyone else talks like he's the monster he's supposed to be, but the perspective of the series just refuses to budge from its stance that he's some kind of tragic hero.

And Naruto [I]has[/I] matured, which is why it's all the more frustrating to see him so devoted to making a blind (haha almost literally) man see the light. Sasuke's showing no signs of ever returning to sanity and rather than regard that, Naruto still clings to his childish idealism that he can make Sasuke change if he words his plea correctly. Every non-Sasuke related decision the boy's made since Jiraiya died has been so competent, but the biggest crisis Konoha currently has is the one thing he simply cannot see for what it is. This is why he's still unworthy to be Hokage.

As for [B]One Piece[/B], my recommendation is to switch to the manga for now, since it has better overall pacing. You might want to watch some of the anime for the fight scenes, though. They tend to look pretty good in motion, IMO. That's only if you like the scenes enough that you actually want to see them in motion, though. I will admit that OP can be kind of hit-or-miss with some people (I love it to death, some people hate it just as much.)[/FONT]
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[SIZE=1]I have to agree with Ace's assessment, nobody is questioning that Naruto has matured as the series has progressed. Due to the hardship and tragedy he has had to deal with, in as much of a personal way as Sasuke has he has dealt with it while still attempting to hold on to what many characters consider childish ideals of unbreakable friendship and faith.

To be honest I think it's actually Sasuke who is regressing in maturity as the series has progressed. His goals are becoming wider and vaguer as time goes on, from simply "Kill Itachi to avenge his clan" to "Kill Konoha's Elders to avenge Itachi" to "Kill Konoha to avenge his clan". He's becoming so blind I can genuinely see him aligning with Madara's plan by choice because of depth psychosis or the way he has twisted his own memories of events.

The problem however isn't the relative maturity of characters, it's that Naruto seems to be unwilling to address just how dangerous Sasuke is and that Naruto's faith in their friendship is, for the time being, unilateral. I mean he pulls Sakura out of the way of likely being killed, and rather than ask Sasuke what's going on he launches full whack into his "I understand you, we're alike, I'm glad I met you" speech which is exactly the same thing he did four years previously and had it tossed in his face in exactly the same way.

I think Naruto has an idealised version of what Sasuke is, or what Sasuke should be and he's letting that idealisation push him to the point where he not only makes foolish decisions but effectively ignores the opinions of others, who were just as attached to Sasuke for the sake of his own wishes. As I said, Kakashi was much closer to Sasuke than he was the other two members of Team 7, he directly comments he now understands what the Third went through when he had to fight Orochimaru for the last time.

Kakashi who calls Sasuke his beloved student is willing to kill him because of the danger he represents, he's willing to look at the big picture and see it for what it is. Sakura is the same, genuinely loving Sasuke on an emotional and romantic level but still being able to see he needs to be stopped before he destroys more. It's not "Konoha ninja taking care of a Konoha problem" it's Team 7 putting their own feelings aside and doing what's necessary, an adult decision.

I know we're supposed to admire Naruto for not giving up, for having the guts and the courage to keep trying to do the right thing when chances are against him. In this case however I think he's being fundamentally selfish and childish because his word effectively means more to him than the lives of others. For an instant imagine if it had been Tsunade rather than Danzou Sasuke had come across and killed, someone Naruto is much closer to emotionally, would that alter the way this conversation went ?

That doesn't mean I want Naruto to become a cold-blooded assassin and just butcher Sasuke where he stands, that would be an incredibly unbelievable departure from his character. Instead I just want him to look at what his predecessors had to deal with, and how they ultimately sacrificed their own desires for the good of the world. Big picture, big decisions. I think Naruto is still trying to look at the small picture and make big decisions off of it.

Specifically in regard to being negative about the series Ajeh I don't think that's necessarily true. We all see the potential the series has, and most of the time what we're complaining about is actually the fact that Kishi seems uninterested in reaching that potential and prefers to churn out clich├ęd storylines with the same messages constantly. You pointed out yourself that this meeting is a mirror for VotE.

There is plenty to like about the series, as I've said before Naruto is the hero and he certainly possesses heroic qualities that are admirable and interesting to see cast against the apparent ninja norms. He succeeds despite having everything put in his way practically from birth and yet continues to hold his head up and think the best of people. Sasuke by contrast was born the perfect ninja, strength, skill, abilities and yet he's been unable to deal with the loneliness and the tragedy that Naruto has managed to overcome partially because of Sasuke himself.

From a psychological point of view it's a great series, pacing wise and story-wise however there are problems in that the main character seems to be receiving less and less focus and Naruto's development is being tied inherently into Sasuke's. I like Sasuke (or well, I tolerate him because I find him interesting) but I want to see Naruto address his own issues every once in a while, how he feels about Sakura, how he feels about his own legacy, Hinata. We seem to be going from fight to fight to fight without any real development of anyone but Sasuke and that's a problem. It feels like someone fast-forwarding a movie to just watch the fights.

At the end of the day if I didn't like it, I wouldn't be reading it.
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[size=1][color=navy]I'll use spoilers.

486 spoilers
[quote=ShadowGun @Toonzone][spoiler]- Naruto says Sasuke is his friend.
-Sasuke claims no one understand him. They continue to fight.
- Kakashi tries to stop Naruto but fails. Sakura is till crying.
- Naruto reveal the third option. If he can't bring Sasuke back, Naruto will kill him along with himself.[/spoiler][/quote]

A more clearer version
[quote=GWOtaku @Toonzone][spoiler]Naruto: I get it, if we fight seriously now we'll both die.
Naruto: You're a friend! That's why I'll shoulder your hatred together with you by dying with you.
Sakura cries upon hearing this.
Sasuke: You don't understand anything about pain - I won't die - you alone will die.
Kakashi: You must become Hokage so let me take care of Sasuke!
Naruto: You want me to become a hokage who can't save a single comrade/friend!? [/spoiler][/quote]

:mad: I quit. [/size][/color]
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[quote name='Magus'][SIZE=1][COLOR=navy]:mad: I quit. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote]
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No! God damn it Magus I need someone to discuss the series with that isn't a fifteen year old perma-hormonal Sauce-tard.

This chapter was pretty lame to be fair though, after all talk of taking a third option Naruto's idea is to go completely against his own code and die with Sasuke (ghey/gay, both really). At this point given Sasuke's half blind without his Sharingan and Naruto killed Pein this should've been a curb stomp battle, instead Naruto is refusing to bring out his ace (Sage chakra) and fighting like the scrub he was originally spamming Rasengans.

We all know Sasuke won't die here so the more Kishi drags it out with same speeches the worse this'll feel.
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[quote name='Magus'][SIZE=1][COLOR=navy]What are Ace and AJeh? :catgirl:[/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote]

[SIZE=1]Sadly too sporadic to make for good conversation, I suppose I should've qualified that statement to include NarutoFan where I read up on the series and deal with said Sauce-tards.[/SIZE]
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[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="1"][COLOR="Gray"]I gotta say, I really enjoy reading you guys' "commentary" on these manga. Sometimes it really makes for a good lol, so by all means Magus, don't give up on the series just yet.

But this chapter didn't disappoint me at all. That's a little sad to say but it's true...I really didn't expect Kishi to actually improve the standard of his writing, but to stick to the expectations that he's set for me, and he definitely came through once again. :nope:

Will he ever prove me wrong? I doubt it but we'll have to wait till next chapter and see lol.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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